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Old 2013-11-22, 15:45   Link #1001
AzureGalaxy
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OMG I need an answer. If anyone else has watched the third movie (Rebellion) PLEASE REPLY TO THIS.
Why didn't they let madoka regain her goddess memories and powers before homura could hug her and make them go away. I REALLY WANTED TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN >:U
Are they going to make a continuation for that to happen? SOMEONE TELL ME PL0X.
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Old 2013-11-22, 18:09   Link #1002
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Originally Posted by AzureGalaxy View Post
OMG I need an answer. If anyone else has watched the third movie (Rebellion) PLEASE REPLY TO THIS.
Why didn't they let madoka regain her goddess memories and powers before homura could hug her and make them go away. I REALLY WANTED TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN >:U
Are they going to make a continuation for that to happen? SOMEONE TELL ME PL0X.
~Fan Boying so hard~
Yeah pretty much. They wanna milk it so hard.
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Old 2013-11-22, 21:59   Link #1003
Klashikari
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Alright, I've got back from the screening in Paris, and after trying not to be spoiled (which was not perfect because I did see few pictures of posters showing Madoka and Homura in their "final forms"), I sort of could watch the movie with only few apprehensions.

To be blunt, I couldn't really enjoy the movie as much as other people probably could, and I honestly don't have the time nor the energy to check reviews and all.

Anyway, considering how long the review is, here it goes.

Spoiler for non spoiler review of Madoka Magica: Rebellion:


Now, for those who are more interested in the details without minding spoilers:
Spoiler for Spoiler-filled review of Rebellion:


I might polish a bit things here and there, but I needed to this asap, otherwise I wouldn't be able to have the fine details in my mind (and no, camrips are no go).
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Old 2013-11-22, 22:25   Link #1004
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Just got 'round to watching the camrip, and while the movie left me with mixed feelings at first, I gradually came to like it. Homura was my favourite magical girl in the original series, so I feared that I'd end up resenting her, but ended up liking her more. Her transition towards Homucifer could've been smoother, but at the same time it was tragic to watch, and made me sympathize more with her.

The visuals are one of the strongest points of the movie, giving the false Mitakihara an obvious 'illusion-world' feel. In my opinion, it was almost excessive actually, compared to the original series where there was a balance between the humans' world and the witches' worlds. I would've preferred a more ordinary look to the false Mitakihara before Homura exposed the truth behind it.

Overall, it was good, definitely looking forward to the HQ version.
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Old 2013-11-22, 22:55   Link #1005
DarkSoul42
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Got a few things to say myself :
- Homura litterally lived as long as Madokami (series acknowledged Madokami was the gestalt of all timelines' Madoka, therefore she knows how much Homura cared), and as such, I don't find it out of place that she'd have emotions or a mindset that go far beyond these a normal human can have. She is litterally a time abyss here, she forgot how many timelines she lived, and Kyubey outright says the number is countless. The very fact she could retain a human-like mindset after that is in and of itself a little miracle, I outright expected her to go insane from the sheer amount of time.
- The draining seems to be implied by the very last scene of Episode 12 of the series, but yeah it sort of implied a Long Long After The End, whereas here it feels like she just had to fight a battle in the desert or something. But the point is, this is not important : the fact is, Homura would have eventually faced that fate on her own, this is a given.
Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

- Kyubey seems to imply he was partly caught in the whole mess against his will (maybe Homura wanting to re-enact her fantasy required Kyubey along with the others?), and had to play along.
Spoiler:

- As for Sayaka and Kyoko, Urobuchi-sensei stated in a french interview at Epitanime 2013 this year that it was canon even though they couldn't put it in the series ( http://typemoon.fr/interview-durobuc...pitanime-2013/ http://translate.google.com/translat...tanime-2013%2F ); I personally didn't mind, for me Kyoko was too rough and jaded in the original series to be honest with herself when faced with Sayaka.
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Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

Last edited by DarkSoul42; 2013-11-22 at 23:40.
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Old 2013-11-23, 04:47   Link #1006
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Quote:
- Homura litterally lived as long as Madokami (series acknowledged Madokami was the gestalt of all timelines' Madoka, therefore she knows how much Homura cared), and as such, I don't find it out of place that she'd have emotions or a mindset that go far beyond these a normal human can have. She is litterally a time abyss here, she forgot how many timelines she lived, and Kyubey outright says the number is countless. The very fact she could retain a human-like mindset after that is in and of itself a little miracle, I outright expected her to go insane from the sheer amount of time.
According to Urobuchi, it was about 100 loops, so about 10-12 years.

Also, Madokami remembers all timelines, but she also inhabits all time and space. I think she has more 'experience' post-ascension.

Quote:
She would have achieved her reunion with Madoka, but frankly, having Homura, which is clearly a special existence with potential equal to Madoka (see above point : she ALSO bears the burden of an INFINITE amount of worlds, only second to Madoka's), and it would have been WAY too lukewarm for her to end as any other MS.
It can't be infinite, lol. Maths.

Either way, I'm a bit iffy since up until now it didn't seem like a Puella Magi's karmic destiny MATTERED after making the contract, since their wish seems to lock things in place.

It's not like Mami and company got stronger over the timelines or anything.

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I don't think you can really call Homura "evil": besides, the ending states outright it's more of a chaos/selfishness vs order/selflessness thing. Homura re-created a world where even all the dead MS are brought back alive, and she just needed that running to have a human form Madoka around to satisfy her. Except, Madoka is too selfless, so they will become enemies by force of things. Besides, Homura seems to imply that the Principle saving MS is still active, just that Madoka's human part got separated of it.
Er, it's only Nagisa and Sayaka for sure, and they were in the world at the time. Homura didn't necessarily revive anyone.

I'm kind of remiss to think what the Law of Cycles will do without a compassionate, beating heart to guide it. The only other context we have for emotionless forces is Kyubey, afterall.

Quote:
As for the whole summoning past and future MS and witches... One thing has to be remembered here : witches and their altered spaces/barriers are litterally realities of their own with their own laws (you could say, a la Reality Marbles of Nasuverse fame). Therefore, what happened here was that a principle of the universe (Madoka) tried to be enacted there and got warped. This is even how Sayaka gets "brought back" memories and all.
I'm not quoting your whole paragraph here, but I will say that while I agree witches are demiurges of a sort, they're not exactly Madokami-class beings, either. Their labyrinths ultimately bend to the larger universe, afterall.

Also, Nagisa and Sayaka seem to be special cases, since they claim they were holding Madoka's memory and power. Their witch-mode stuff could stem from that.

Quote:
Also, Kyubey's whole rambling about Homura turning into a witch inside the egg makes me wonder how things work : Kyubey implies the principle only activates on Soul Gems about to be destroyed, and if Homura turned into a witch in that barrier then she'd go under the radar and be out of luck... Madoka's wish was to "destroy all witches BEFORE they are born, with her own hands", but what would happen with a witch already born and popping in a complete state in the world where Madokami can reach it? Kyubey's view implies that Madokami wouldn't be able to deal with it, as the space-time where it was born was out of her reach thanks to Kyubey...
You misunderstand slightly; Kyubey compared Homura's situation to a chick that can't break it's egg-shell. It's only until that moment that a chick is born, and until that Soul Gem becomes a Grief Seed, same goes for Homura. Otherwise it's basically just a human going crazy during a coma, right?

If ever Homulilly were to be capable of hatching, Madoka could act.

Though the fact that Kyubey could block off a being he couldn't even observe from outside the universe from doing magical stuff he doesn't understand using non-magical methods is frankly stupid on all sorts of levels so the movie kind of falls apart there.
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Old 2013-11-23, 04:58   Link #1007
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Though the fact that Kyubey could block off a being he couldn't even observe from outside the universe from doing magical stuff he doesn't understand using non-magical methods is frankly stupid on all sorts of levels so the movie kind of falls apart there.
Funnily enough, that issue is one that I have thought about a couple of times, yet somehow it never seemed to bother me anywhere near as much as Homura's sudden Hostile Takeover of the universe...
And speaking of that, I would just like to say that that theory posted earlier about how this happened due to Homura's and Madoka's wishes contradicting each other? Probably the most plausible explanation for this whole thing I've heard yet.
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Old 2013-11-23, 05:39   Link #1008
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
According to Urobuchi, it was about 100 loops, so about 10-12 years.

Also, Madokami remembers all timelines, but she also inhabits all time and space. I think she has more 'experience' post-ascension.



It can't be infinite, lol. Maths.
My bad, I was requoting verbatim japanese from Kyubey who used quite dramatic wording to count the number of worlds whose fate strings have been tied to Madoka.

Quote:
Er, it's only Nagisa and Sayaka for sure, and they were in the world at the time. Homura didn't necessarily revive anyone.
Yeah but this still means she has in some way rebuilt the universe providing a context for these two to be alive in. (Which we know Madokami explicitely didn't do for Sayaka when she rebuilt the universe, she decided to preserve Sayaka's wish and the beauty of her heroic sacrifice)

Quote:
I'm not quoting your whole paragraph here, but I will say that while I agree witches are demiurges of a sort, they're not exactly Madokami-class beings, either. Their labyrinths ultimately bend to the larger universe, afterall.
Only in their worlds : I meant it in a "Umineko" way, where the witch reigning over her field is absolute, and even a globally more powerful entity would have to bend to the local rules.

Quote:
Also, Nagisa and Sayaka seem to be special cases, since they claim they were holding Madoka's memory and power. Their witch-mode stuff could stem from that.
The way I see it, it shouldn't exist in a world with normal rules because it's like summoning two different "conclusions" of the same person at the same time. (The Sayaka that ended as a witch with all her powers, and the Sayaka that ended burning out, AND on top of that the ability to control all of that)

Quote:
You misunderstand slightly; Kyubey compared Homura's situation to a chick that can't break it's egg-shell. It's only until that moment that a chick is born, and until that Soul Gem becomes a Grief Seed, same goes for Homura. Otherwise it's basically just a human going crazy during a coma, right?
True. I might have got a bit confused because Homura DOES achieve a witch-like form, which pretty much meant to me that the transformation was technically completed. But the fact she was able to reverse it at the last moment, to meet Madoka in the real world, proves you're right, actually.

Quote:
If ever Homulilly were to be capable of hatching, Madoka could act.

Though the fact that Kyubey could block off a being he couldn't even observe from outside the universe from doing magical stuff he doesn't understand using non-magical methods is frankly stupid on all sorts of levels so the movie kind of falls apart there.
Well, in the first place he HAS technology that converts emotions (which they don't have themselves and don't understand that much) in energy.

Also, the thing is he did not actually block Madokami, what happened is :
Spoiler:
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Old 2013-11-23, 05:47   Link #1009
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Yeah but this still means she has in some way rebuilt the universe providing a context for these two to be alive in. (Which we know Madokami explicitely didn't do for Sayaka when she rebuilt the universe, she decided to preserve Sayaka's wish and the beauty of her heroic sacrifice)
In fairness, though, bear in mind that it doesn't seem like Homura actually altered time or the universe at a pataphysical level; she just wrapped the universe in a barrier and altered memories all around.

Quote:
Only in their worlds : I meant it in a "Umineko" way, where the witch reigning over her field is absolute, and even a globally more powerful entity would have to bend to the local rules.
Maybe, maybe not. They seem more like Reality Marbles if anything.

Quote:
The way I see it, it shouldn't exist in a world with normal rules because it's like summoning two different "conclusions" of the same person at the same time. (The Sayaka that ended as a witch with all her powers, and the Sayaka that ended burning out, AND on top of that the ability to control all of that)
Good thing Homura's world isnt a world with normal rules. Familiars are just running around in broad daylight.

Quote:
1) Kyubey just sealed off Homura's gem from outside influence
2) this prompted Homura to deploy a barrier inside the blocking field
3) Homura sucked in Kyubey, Madoka's family, Hitomi, Kyosuke, Mami, Kyoko, and Madokami who tried to intervene
4) They all got their memories warped as an effect of the local rules and the part of Madokami dispatched for Homura, forgot she was a goddess (and could not act); Homura forgot she was a witch (and the field locked her in status quo).
5) Then the movie happens.
I'm aware; but he effectively blocked her in that Madoka wasn't able to do her job or meaningfully interact with the Soul Gem from the outside.

...Why? How? That makes zero sense to me. It's like telling Zeus he can't throw lightning at you because you have an umbrella up, nener nener.

Heck, what does "seal off a Soul Gem from outside influence" even MEAN if the agent doing the influencing is outside of time, space, and the world's non-magical laws of existence. I'm pretty sure that outside of special cases like Rebellion, you can't observe Madokami on any sort of scientific device. How do you lock that out?

I mean, hell, the barrier isn't even blocking out light bouncing back. It's NONSENSE, but it's necessary for the movie to function on any level.
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Old 2013-11-23, 06:08   Link #1010
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm aware; but he effectively blocked her in that Madoka wasn't able to do her job or meaningfully interact with the Soul Gem from the outside.

...Why? How? That makes zero sense to me. It's like telling Zeus he can't throw lightning at you because you have an umbrella up, nener nener.

Heck, what does "seal off a Soul Gem from outside influence" even MEAN if the agent doing the influencing is outside of time, space, and the world's non-magical laws of existence. I'm pretty sure that outside of special cases like Rebellion, you can't observe Madokami on any sort of scientific device. How do you lock that out?

I mean, hell, the barrier isn't even blocking out light bouncing back. It's NONSENSE, but it's necessary for the movie to function on any level.
The way I see it, he wasn't 100% sure what he would get, and just tried methodical scientific experimentation protocols by isolating variables to the best of his ability on a very peculiar case (Homura's corrupt Soul Gem) after hearing about the "witch hypothesis" from Homura, and my way of viewing it is that, it's her barrier (and memory warping, born of Homura's love for Madoka and wish for the dreamlike world) that actually disabled Madokami's abilities.

So the way I see it, Kyubey was just lucky on this attempt because of Homura and Madoka's connection. Then again, I might be totally wrong, because we don't know what this process would do to any other magical girl. I'm just formulating an hypothesis based on what the movie gives, and that reaches the conclusion that human emotions are FAR more powerful than what meets the eye, and that they can even screw up universal forces when the conditions are right. (...which happens to be the point Homura makes, and why I say that strictly within the confines of their worlds, "complete witches" would give Madokami a run for her money)
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Old 2013-11-23, 06:57   Link #1011
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm aware; but he effectively blocked her in that Madoka wasn't able to do her job or meaningfully interact with the Soul Gem from the outside.
We had never previously seen how Madokami's powers would interact with a girl who has already established a labyrinth. Kyubey mostly got lucky...

"When a soul gem is already at its limit... And it's closed off from any outside influence... What do you think will happen? An experiment... If we isolate the soul gem, the source of magical girls redemptive and destructive powers... When the Law of Cycles comes to take you away... What happens to the soul gem? The results we witnessed were very interesting! The rules we set forth to govern this closed space has conditionally set out to capture the girl who sacrificed herself. Without a doubt, this is just like what you explained before about the witches' powers. In the isolation field, the soul gem is being protected from shattering and so, in turn you can't fully turn into a witch. It's like a bird that develops inside of an egg that never hatches. That's why you made a barrier of your own inside of your soul gem. We never thought you'd be able to reproduce a whole city, though. That was surprising."

Really, the Incubators are not good scientists. They are more like Hollywood "mad scientists." They start dangerous experiments with little understanding of what's going to happen. That is, after all, how Madokami came to be as well. A wise being, after having discerned that Madoka's potential exceeded what they believed to be possible, even in theory, would have left her alone and cautiously observed in a passive way. No reasonable safety engineer would ever have signed off on Kyubey's plans in Season 1 or Rebellion.

The credit for blocking Madokami goes mostly to Homura's labyrinth and the plan Madokami came up with to address the situation. Destroying the isolation field was trivial once the labyrinth was dealt with.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
...Why? How? That makes zero sense to me. It's like telling Zeus he can't throw lightning at you because you have an umbrella up, nener nener.
An umbrella can't, sure, but an appropriately-designed Faraday cage should protect against any lightning. Why should Zeus' lightning be exempt?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Heck, what does "seal off a Soul Gem from outside influence" even MEAN if the agent doing the influencing is outside of time, space, and the world's non-magical laws of existence. I'm pretty sure that outside of special cases like Rebellion, you can't observe Madokami on any sort of scientific device. How do you lock that out?
How do you turn a human soul into a tangible gem?

The Incubators clearly have access to technology that we would regard as magic. Since the details were never explained, the limits of Incubator technology are not known. At the very least, they can interact with souls and get useful energy out of emotions. By human standards, that is magic, no matter what Kyubey calls it.

On top of that, Kyubey's exposition makes it sound like the Incubators' experiment would have failed if not for Homura's labyrinth:
"At that time, the barrier you created had no choice but to change her form back into a living being. To that end, us Incubators were finally able to get what we wanted and observed the true cause behind the disappearance of magical girls upon their demise."
"Due to your assistance, we've been able go on endlessly in our research."

Most of what Kyubey is explaining in that scene could be stuff the Incubators figured out from observing the girls over the past month. All they needed to set up the experiment was the isolation field, and it's not clear what (if anything) that isolation field would have accomplished on its own (without Homura's labyrinth).

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I mean, hell, the barrier isn't even blocking out light bouncing back. It's NONSENSE, but it's necessary for the movie to function on any level.
Why would blocking the visible spectrum be a necessary part of the intended functioning of the isolation field? Without knowing anything about the principles on which the field operates, your assumption is nonsense. You might as well look at a supercomputing cluster and say, "But it doesn't even run Windows!"
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Old 2013-11-23, 09:50   Link #1012
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Some slight nitpicking on the actual lines in the translation.

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Originally Posted by Revan View Post
The rules we set forth to govern this closed space has conditionally set out to capture the girl who sacrificed herself.
Here, Kyubey said : "A closed space formed itself, that was ruled by its own internal laws, the guiding of victims and their capture". He's just explaining the first time he has seen a witch's field. No mention of sacrifice, just of "guiding prey and capturing it", and the laws belong to the closed space.

Quote:
"At that time, the barrier you created had no choice but to change her form back into a living being. To that end, us Incubators were finally able to get what we wanted and observed the true cause behind the disappearance of magical girls upon their demise."
Kyubey said : "And now, with all these constraints in place, if the "Law of Cycles" still tries to reach out to you, Akemi Homura, then it will have to materialize in this world, as a 'victim' you invited in your barrier. Enabling us Incubators, to finally identify and observe this mistery: what causes magical girls to disappear.

Quote:
"Due to your assistance, we've been able go on endlessly in our research."
Wrong, here Kyubey says that Homura spilled the beans and saved them the trouble of even looking for it, since Homura called the "Law of Cycles" by the name Kaname Madoka in front of Kyubey. (Though to be fair I'm not 100% sure which line this is based on that English version)
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Old 2013-11-23, 15:38   Link #1013
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(...which happens to be the point Homura makes, and why I say that strictly within the confines of their worlds, "complete witches" would give Madokami a run for her money)
Yea right. Homura may be an exception for Reasons, but Walpurgisnacht and Ultimate Gretchen posed her no problems.

When it comes to undoing witches, Madoka should be effectively omnipotent. Even normal Magical Girls can trump the laws of a Witch's labyrinth with the application of magic. We've seen it.

Quote:
How do you turn a human soul into a tangible gem?

The Incubators clearly have access to technology that we would regard as magic. Since the details were never explained, the limits of Incubator technology are not known. At the very least, they can interact with souls and get useful energy out of emotions. By human standards, that is magic, no matter what Kyubey calls it.
But they're NOT magic. Human emotions are chemicals in the brain (with a magical byproduct) and the 'soul' is a program in the neurons. A flashy version of sci-fi uploading that can feel emotions, and you get magic. The process of emotions is a physiological, reproducible process even if magic itself is beyond their understanding.

Quote:
An umbrella can't, sure, but an appropriately-designed Faraday cage should protect against any lightning. Why should Zeus' lightning be exempt?
The metaphor admittedly falls apart if the deity in question is just doing scientifically reproducible acts, but Madoka's not doing that exactly.

A better example might be the Ascension of Christ. How do you stop his vanishing into heaven without using magic, basically?

Quote:
Why would blocking the visible spectrum be a necessary part of the intended functioning of the isolation field? Without knowing anything about the principles on which the field operates, your assumption is nonsense. You might as well look at a supercomputing cluster and say, "But it doesn't even run Windows!"
I'm not saying it's necessary. I'm saying it's non-absolute, so how is it blocking out a being that demonstrably transcends non-absolutes? Kyubey would've been hosed if Madoka, for example, entered and left taking the form of photons.

This is all leaving out the issues with Kyubey and/or Homura tricking a temporally omniscient being, too.
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Old 2013-11-23, 17:27   Link #1014
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Yeah pretty much. They wanna milk it so hard.
Wait, so they are going to make a continuation? .-.
Honestly, I am very bugged about that ending.
I WANT TO SEE THE LAW OF CYCLE RESTORED.
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Old 2013-11-23, 18:52   Link #1015
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Wait, so they are going to make a continuation? .-.
Honestly, I am very bugged about that ending.
I WANT TO SEE THE LAW OF CYCLE RESTORED.
Madoka will have to fight her then.
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Old 2013-11-23, 20:11   Link #1016
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If Aniplex announce new movie or season, we should speculate in new thread.
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Old 2013-11-23, 20:41   Link #1017
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Originally Posted by DarkSoul42 View Post
Some slight nitpicking on the actual lines in the translation. [...]
Interesting. Unfortunately, I am not qualified to debate such things. The quotes I used are copied verbatim from the Suffering Subs release. Maybe your translation is better, but I have no way of determining that. I lack the necessary skill. I'm stuck in the agnostic position, at least until I see the official Aniplex US subs.

If I understand your translation correctly,
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Originally Posted by DarkSoul42 View Post
then it will have to materialize in this world, as a 'victim' you invited in your barrier. Enabling us Incubators, to finally identify and observe this mistery
Kyubey is still saying that (to use mostly your wording) what enabled the Incubators to observe Madoka was her becoming a 'victim' of Homura's barrier. So, I think we are in agreement on the key point.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But they're NOT magic. Human emotions are chemicals in the brain (with a magical byproduct) and the 'soul' is a program in the neurons. A flashy version of sci-fi uploading that can feel emotions, and you get magic. The process of emotions is a physiological, reproducible process even if magic itself is beyond their understanding.
It's possible I'm just misunderstanding you, but you seem to be trying to have it both ways with "magic." If emotions are chemicals and the soul is a neural program, then the causes of magic are within the reach of sufficiently advanced science. At least some of the effects of magic in the world are also empirically observable, and thus also within the reach of sufficiently advanced science. So magic, then, is not some "other" which is immune to scientific inquiry. Magic, in this context, is just another domain of science that (as far as we know) exists in PMMM's reality but not our reality. The Incubators cannot use magic per se, because they lack emotion, but there is no basis for claiming they could not reproduce some effects of magic via sufficiently advanced technology.

As an (admittedly imperfect) analogy, with current technology I cannot make a software program that truly understands calculus the way a human mathematician does. But I could make one that solves differential equations as if it did. The Incubators cannot make an isolation field that is truly magic, but nonetheless they can make one that blocks certain types of interference as if it were magic.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The metaphor admittedly falls apart if the deity in question is just doing scientifically reproducible acts, but Madoka's not doing that exactly.

A better example might be the Ascension of Christ. How do you stop his vanishing into heaven without using magic, basically?
We don't know the limits of real science, let alone fictional science. How do you know that Madoka's acts are not "scientifically reproducible" in the context of PMMM's reality?

As for the ascension question... If we hypothetically accept Christian mythology, then Christ is omnipotent and so you can't stop him even with magic. Setting that aside, for a non-omnipotent Christ the answer would obviously depend on the principles & mechanisms by which he is attempting to perform said ascension. And the solution would be to find some non-magical means to interfere with one or more of those mechanisms.

To preemptively answer the obvious objection, yes, it is not necessarily the case that such a means exists. However, it is also not necessarily the case that such a means does not exist. That cannot be determined a priori -- at least not without making additional assumptions that are not justified in the context of "magic" as defined in PMMM.

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I'm not saying it's necessary. I'm saying it's non-absolute, so how is it blocking out a being that demonstrably transcends non-absolutes? Kyubey would've been hosed if Madoka, for example, entered and left taking the form of photons.
How exactly is it that she "demonstrably transcends non-absolutes"? What does that even mean?

In any case, a photon is a physical entity. If Madoka took the form of photons, then she would be observable as photons. So "step 1" (observe Madoka) would have been at least a partial success for the Incubators. They could then analyze that data, and set up another experiment based on what they learned. Madoka has to go claim every magical girl; it's not like the Incubators will run out of test subjects any time soon.

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This is all leaving out the issues with Kyubey and/or Homura tricking a temporally omniscient being, too.
I'm pretty sure I know the quote you are referring to, but even without Rebellion I don't think your interpretation is viable.

Homura: "Are you... really all right with that, Madoka? Even though I'll forget you? Even though I'll never even be able to sense you again?"
Madoka: "It's too soon to give up yet. After all, you managed to follow me all the way out here, didn't you? So even when you go back to your world... maybe you'll still be able to remember me. It'll be all right. I know it'll be all right. Let's believe."

An omniscient Madoka has no business saying things like "maybe" or "let's believe" because she would already know what will or won't happen. An omniscient Madoka could just state directly: "Homura-chan, you won't forget me. I know." Or something to that effect. But she doesn't say that at all. Her only clear assertion is a vague "it'll be all right."

Now, yes, I can't definitively prove that she's not just jerking Homura around, but come on... are you really going to argue she's playing a cruel game with Homura's feelings? As soon as Homura arrives in the new universe she will realize that she does indeed remember Madoka, so what possible justification could Madoka have for not simply telling Homura?

Even on a thematic level, it would be pretty weird that the girl who became hope would be incapable of hope herself -- but that is what omniscience would entail. Hope is about positive belief/feeling/expectation when facing uncertainty. The uncertainty part is critical. It's not hope if you already know the result.
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Old 2013-11-23, 22:17   Link #1018
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Quote:
It's possible I'm just misunderstanding you, but you seem to be trying to have it both ways with "magic." If emotions are chemicals and the soul is a neural program, then the causes of magic are within the reach of sufficiently advanced science. At least some of the effects of magic in the world are also empirically observable, and thus also within the reach of sufficiently advanced science. So magic, then, is not some "other" which is immune to scientific inquiry. Magic, in this context, is just another domain of science that (as far as we know) exists in PMMM's reality but not our reality. The Incubators cannot use magic per se, because they lack emotion, but there is no basis for claiming they could not reproduce some effects of magic via sufficiently advanced technology.
It's not that magic can't be observed, but the Incubators don't understand how it works, only what it does and what causes magic to happen. Even with that, a deity that cannot be observed and transcends time is on a different level.

Also, Madoka is a law of the universe. If they were capable of trumping those, entropy would've never been an issue in the first place.

Quote:
We don't know the limits of real science, let alone fictional science. How do you know that Madoka's acts are not "scientifically reproducible" in the context of PMMM's reality?
Because Madoka's acts rewrote the laws of the universe, and the power of science/technology is effectively just utilizing the product of those laws.

Show me science that can permanently rewrite how science functions and maybe I'll concede the point.

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How exactly is it that she "demonstrably transcends non-absolutes"? What does that even mean?
*Points to Kyubey's spiel in episode 12 about how Madoka's wish tells the laws of time and space to shove it.*

Quote:
In any case, a photon is a physical entity. If Madoka took the form of photons, then she would be observable as photons. So "step 1" (observe Madoka) would have been at least a partial success for the Incubators. They could then analyze that data, and set up another experiment based on what they learned. Madoka has to go claim every magical girl; it's not like the Incubators will run out of test subjects any time soon.
The photon thing was an example of Madoka going around Kyubey's interference in her task, not necessarily dodging Kyubey's observations.

It's not even necessary, because the laws of the universe are effectively omnipresent. Witch barriers don't have their own flow of time, for instance (that we know of).

Quote:
An omniscient Madoka has no business saying things like "maybe" or "let's believe" because she would already know what will or won't happen. An omniscient Madoka could just state directly: "Homura-chan, you won't forget me. I know." Or something to that effect. But she doesn't say that at all. Her only clear assertion is a vague "it'll be all right."
Gonna stop you right there by pointing out that the Japanese language doesn't distinguish between 'if' statements and 'absolute' statements like that, and that the language is structured to offer passive non-absolutes as part of its integral grammar. An absolute factual statement can and often is translated into English as rhetorical questions, because boldly stating things as absolutes in Japanese is incredibly rude and unfitting of Madoka's gentle and feminine speaking style.

Quote:
Now, yes, I can't definitively prove that she's not just jerking Homura around, but come on... are you really going to argue she's playing a cruel game with Homura's feelings? As soon as Homura arrives in the new universe she will realize that she does indeed remember Madoka, so what possible justification could Madoka have for not simply telling Homura?
By not putting things in terms of absolutes and predetermined outcomes, she offers Homura hope that things can change and a true miracle can occur by Homura's own doing.

You know, that hope thing that she's kind of in charge of handing out, now.

Quote:
Even on a thematic level, it would be pretty weird that the girl who became hope would be incapable of hope herself -- but that is what omniscience would entail. Hope is about positive belief/feeling/expectation when facing uncertainty. The uncertainty part is critical. It's not hope if you already know the result.
According to the dictionary, hope is " the state which promotes the desire of positive outcomes related to events and circumstances in one's life or in the world at large." This doesn't necessitate uncertainty or belief at all. Moreover, she is a hopeBRINGER. She is a law of the universe that offers uncertain mortals the assurance that things can and will be alright for them.

Your argument is akin to claiming that Christ can't feel the very thing he's offering his followers.
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Old 2013-11-24, 00:22   Link #1019
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Originally Posted by Revan View Post
Interesting. Unfortunately, I am not qualified to debate such things. The quotes I used are copied verbatim from the Suffering Subs release. Maybe your translation is better, but I have no way of determining that. I lack the necessary skill. I'm stuck in the agnostic position, at least until I see the official Aniplex US subs.

If I understand your translation correctly,

Kyubey is still saying that (to use mostly your wording) what enabled the Incubators to observe Madoka was her becoming a 'victim' of Homura's barrier. So, I think we are in agreement on the key point.
The way I see it, Kyubey simply wanted to see "what happens" if isolated from all possible outer powers, to better understand the mechanics and didn't expect much more than proof of the witches' abilities. With a normal magical girl, things should have ended with Madokami metaphorically trying to get close and not being able to, and the Soul Gem locked in stasis until someone shut down the field.

Then, since he tried his experiment on Homura of all people, Homura's labyrinth sucked Madoka in it. I think in this instance, it helps that Homura is the only being in the universe KNOWING and ACKNOWLEDGING Madoka's existence as an actual person and more than a concept, because if you apply the "belief/cognition brings things in existence" (a la "cogito ergo sum"; think what Lordgenome says in TTGL about universe being defined by observation, and the Great Gurren Brigade being unable to pinpoint the Antispirals if not for the ring; I'm thinking a logic like this one applies here), then in Homura's labyrinth, pushed one step further, Homura's belief gave Madokami an observable shape.

So for me Kyubey wanted "to see what happens", and got far more he bargained for, thanks to Homura and her unique connection to Madoka. Then once he'd have actual PROOF of Madoka's existence and mechanics through Homura, he'd be able to eventually understand and limit it for his purposes. (Again, this is an extension of the "belief shapes reality" mindset, but I think that from the moment we have a reality-rewriting wish, this assumption is pretty safe)

As for saying whether Madokami is absolute... I guess from the moment she left behind Homura with a thread hanging, so to speak, you can't say she is absolute because it left the loophole we've seen.

(Again, the above is purely my speculation)
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Old 2013-11-24, 02:27   Link #1020
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I don't think belief-shapes-reality is the mechanic at play here, nor that Homura really 'called/summoned Madoka in', per se, so much that Madoka was invited in and offered her a form. Given Madoka's preparations it sure as heck seems like she didn't HAVE to enter the barrier, though not doing so would've been forgoing her only apparent means of helping Homura.
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