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Old 2013-07-08, 13:23   Link #1
Haiprbim
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Ongoing Series With No Sub-Forum: Overall Rating

Hello, guys and gals.

As most of you are probably aware, not all of the Ongoing Anime Series get a sub-forum here, at AnimeSuki.
Some are just kept under the main forum (Ongoing Series) as threads.

Now, as there is only one thread registered for those series, they do not have an official poll for various episodes (1-10 impression).
So, just for one thread, creating all the polls for every episode would be quite impossible. However, there could be one - for overall impression of the show.

On the day the show airs its final episode, if it doesn't have its own sub-forum and has only a thread, the thread should get an overall impression poll.

This could be input by the Moderators at first, but if we could later find/make a plugin which would detect the date & hour and put up the poll by itself, we could go by that. However, if we wouldn't manage to obtain and input such a plugin (we probably won't be able to), the Moderators would just have to take care of the every at-that-time airing show. In the end, there are not that many those.

So basically, I would like to request inputting an overall rating/impression poll the moment the final episode of an airing show is released, if AnimeSuki does not have the whole sub-forum for that show.

As for Moderators handling that, I'm sure they won't have any issues inputting the polls into the threads.
If the Moderating Team's size is an issue, it is about time the team expands, not just because of this particular request, but for the maintenance around the forums in general.

Please, do share your opinion regarding the idea and if you want to add something, feel free to.
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Old 2013-07-09, 01:03   Link #2
TheFluff
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you know, it's usually considered pretty rude to speak for someone else without having asked them first ("I'm sure the moderators won't mind this extra work")

also, if I were on the staff I'd consider both your ideas about how "it's about time to expand the moderato team" and your use of the word "we" when you really mean "one of the the admin staff" to be pretty damn presumptuous

as for the idea itself, it's a bad idea and you should feel bad for suggesting it, please go back to anidb and debate vote weighting algorithms with the neckbeards there for a few years
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Old 2013-07-09, 02:46   Link #3
Haiprbim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
as for the idea itself, it's a bad idea and you should feel bad for suggesting it, please go back to anidb and debate vote weighting algorithms with the neckbeards there for a few years
And the idea itself is bad because... ?
If many shows can get polls for every episode, I do not know why those with threads-only shouldn't get one final poll for the overall impression.
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Old 2013-07-09, 03:09   Link #4
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I think the mods have favorites series themselves....
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Old 2013-07-09, 03:31   Link #5
Haiprbim
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
I think the mods have favorites series themselves....
I'm sorry, but I do not really see the connection with that and inputting a poll where everyone could vote on.
Well, it's only natural they have their own favourites as well.
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Old 2013-07-09, 04:29   Link #6
relentlessflame
 
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Sub-forums are not driven by "favouritism". You can read more here.

The only reason the poll thread is in the sub-forum is because it helped to provide a way for some people to frame their opinion when posting their overall impressions/series review. Really, the point of that thread is to get people to talk about the series, not just vote in a poll. The poll really means nothing, just like the episode polls. But the fact that they're in a sub-forum makes them a little bit less abused than they otherwise might be, because you have to go out of your way to go to the sub-forum and to that specific thread to vote. If every single finished anime series had a poll, it'd be pretty easy for people just to just start clicking through threads one after the other and vote, vote, vote even if they never watched the show, making the results even less meaningful.

But anyway... I'm probably the wrong person to ask because I'm really not big on these sorts of polls. And besides, creating the polls in the sub-forums is pretty easy because it uses a template, which you couldn't do for other threads. To me, my first thought when reading the proposal was "sounds like a lot of extra work for minimal gain". But like I said, that's just me...
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Old 2013-07-09, 05:21   Link #7
Haiprbim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Sub-forums are not driven by "favouritism". You can read more here.
I guess that wasn't meant to me, because I know it is not run under the effect of "what I like more".

Quote:
The only reason the poll thread is in the sub-forum is because it helped to provide a way for some people to frame their opinion when posting their overall impressions/series review. Really, the point of that thread is to get people to talk about the series, not just vote in a poll. The poll really means nothing, just like the episode polls. But the fact that they're in a sub-forum makes them a little bit less abused than they otherwise might be, because you have to go out of your way to go to the sub-forum and to that specific thread to vote. If every single finished anime series had a poll, it'd be pretty easy for people just to just start clicking through threads one after the other and vote, vote, vote even if they never watched the show, making the results even less meaningful.
Okay, let me explain a bit more on why an overall impression of the series poll would be wanted.

First off, I'd like to say that the idea of someone just jumping from a thread to thread, voting even if he/she did not watch the show is pretty useless here, since that is way easier to achieve with the polls the shows with sub-forums have. Also, the shows in one season themselves would not all end on the same date and I'm strongly convinced that the AnimeSuki community doesn't have a lot of trolls, so we can cut a big part of members that would vote for no reason.

Now, the overall impression poll could be input when the show airs its last episode so the one who hasn't still watched it could approximately see how high would the members of AS rank the show, resulting if it is worth watching.
Not to mention that over the time, members get to know each other and add themselves as Friends, mostly those with the same taste and at the poll, you can check who voted what, giving you that much more of an impression of the series.

Also, it is always good to have a record somewhere on just how does the community think the show overall was like.
A poll is an easy way of displaying everyone's opinions (It is rounded up on a simple, yet efficient way), although it is very wanted to read the posts as well.

Quote:
But anyway... I'm probably the wrong person to ask because I'm really not big on these sorts of polls. And besides, creating the polls in the sub-forums is pretty easy because it uses a template, which you couldn't do for other threads. To me, my first thought when reading the proposal was "sounds like a lot of extra work for minimal gain". But like I said, that's just me...
As far as I know, this would be almost no work at all.
In fact, it could be a one-man-job.

I'm pretty sure that vB 3 allows polls to be added to threads later, after the creation.
Also, not many shows air at one season, and for each one of them there is only one day we would add one poll. Giving an example, for one season, the Moderators would have to input approximately 20 polls (that is a bit much).

I think I can say that there would not be much effort put into this (if any at all, just a side-job), but the gain would be there, although you might not see it yet - I think a good few would gain from this.
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Old 2013-07-09, 05:51   Link #8
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post

Also, it is always good to have a record somewhere on just how does the community think the show overall was like.
A poll is an easy way of displaying everyone's opinions (It is rounded up on a simple, yet efficient way), although it is very wanted to read the posts as well.
Here's the core problem with your idea, at least as far as Anime Suki itself is concerned:

Your standard overall series rating - Not just your rating on critically acclaimed shows like Madoka Magica and Fate/Zero, but just your standard overall series rating - skews heavily to 8s, 9s, and 10s. In other words "high scores".

Seriously, just look around the older series subforums, and you'll notice how its typically over 50% for 8s, 9s, and 10s for overall series ratings.

Every now and then you'll get something like School Days or Guilty Crown, where the overall series ratings are more akin to an actual bell curve, indicating that the show was either very polarizing or at least had decidedly mixed reactions. But these shows tend to be infamous anyway - I knew about School Days and its (in)famous ending/reception long before I actually watched the show.


Another thing to consider is that overall series threads are actually in a bit of decline. Just look at it for Psycho-Pass and Shinsekai Yori. Those threads are downright dead compared to your typical episode thread for either show. So I think people are increasingly caring less and less about overall series ratings here on Anime Suki, perhaps because people are noticing the top-heavy skewing I mentioned before.


I understand and respect that you're curious to know what Anime Suki forum members would vote on non-subforum'ed shows if those convenient radio buttons were there for those shows too. But trust me, you're probably not missing much. Most of them would be similarly top-heavy. In fact, you're even more likely to see top-heavy voting there than for subforum'ed shows.

Subforum'ed shows tend to be the "hot topics" of the season, and hence more people will follow them through even if they're not particularly liking them. With shows that never get subforum'ed, many of them are relatively obscure, so dissatisfied viewers are more likely to just drop them, leaving nothing but pleased fans by the time Episode 11, 12, or 13 rolls around. Then only those remaining fans vote on it, and it might give you the impression that Decent But Nothing Special Obscure Anime A is the best anime of the year.
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Old 2013-07-09, 06:16   Link #9
Haiprbim
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Well, next to the poll, there is an average rating.

It is true that we would have to trust the members to put their honest opinion in the vote, but you cannot force them to do so.
However, the more members vote, the more overall accurate the average result is.

If we look at MyAnimeList for example. They have an overall average score, and quite a lot of members vote for various shows, carving up quite a nice number that is very accurate most of the time (looking at that trolls voting 1 and no-watchers voting 10 eliminate themselves). There, my voting is overall 0.08% lower for all the shows summed up than what the rest of the community voted. That is what I mean by accurate and that you can quickly see just how good is the show and if it is standing out - not to mention the reviews, etc.

However, we are not MyAnimeList, we are AnimeSuki. And it would be great to see how we think about various series and look at the average rating.

Again, this is an idea and I'm really happy to see you post your opinion regarding it.
You also noted older series' sub-forums. I have checked that out and you are quite right - looks like many are not tough enough against various shows or just haven't watched that many of them yet to be able to judge.
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Old 2013-07-09, 08:09   Link #10
SeijiSensei
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We already have an elaborate system to vote on the Anime Suki Choice Awards each year. I don't see a great demand for series-by-series ratings. Personally I'd prefer to see more effort spent on getting our members to vote on these awards rather than setting up series polls.

As for the accuracy of the ratings themselves, I have some experience in this area after working on a major foundation-supported project in the 1980s to develop a method to collect "appreciation" scores for television programs. I posted about the methodological problems involved here. The natural tendency for people to score programs they have watched highly, the problem Triple_R describes, is just the beginning. The fact that people only rate the programs they choose to watch poses a profoundly more difficult methodological problem.

There are already ratings for shows at ANN, AniDB, and MAL. That seems like enough to me.
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Old 2013-07-09, 17:12   Link #11
Haiprbim
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Since you seem to have more experience on that part, I'll take your word for it.

However, we are not MAL, ANN or AniDB.
If you want an extremely accurate average score/rating, you should look there. However, the overall impression poll would be good to be made at AS as well so that the members who discuss various series could also cast their opinion on a simple, direct way - by shooting a vote from 1-10.
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Old 2013-07-09, 21:20   Link #12
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post
And the idea itself is bad because... ?
If many shows can get polls for every episode, I do not know why those with threads-only shouldn't get one final poll for the overall impression.
it's a bad idea because it's completely pointless

You admit yourself that the polls aren't going to be a measure of how good the show actually is to any meaningful degree, so what use are they then? Are they supposed to make forums users feel good about pressing buttons? It'll create a bunch of extra work for the moderators for no meaningful benefit whatsoever.
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17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

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Old 2013-07-10, 06:01   Link #13
Haiprbim
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Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
it's a bad idea because it's completely pointless

You admit yourself that the polls aren't going to be a measure of how good the show actually is to any meaningful degree, so what use are they then?
Quite the opposite, I said that they would bring out an average rating of what the AnimeSuki members think about various series.
The rating in the end might not be as accurate as on the other bigger sites, but it shows a round image for AnimeSuki.

Quote:
Are they supposed to make forums users feel good about pressing buttons?
It is just another way of expressing your opinion on a direct and simple way, yet the easiest way of displaying everyone's opinion.

Quote:
It'll create a bunch of extra work for the moderators for no meaningful benefit whatsoever.
Again, it is the easiest way to display everyone's opinion on the graph and by that quickly see what others think about a specific show.
Also, as I've said, this would bring almost no work to Moderators at all, I do not know where you get that idea. They would only input around 15-20 polls in one season. That is around 3 months. Now you tell me that inputting 15-20 polls (1 can be input in approximately 10 seconds) would be a hard thing for Moderators to do in 3 months.
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:52   Link #14
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post
Also, as I've said, this would bring almost no work to Moderators at all, I do not know where you get that idea. They would only input around 15-20 polls in one season. That is around 3 months. Now you tell me that inputting 15-20 polls (1 can be input in approximately 10 seconds) would be a hard thing for Moderators to do in 3 months.
...With all due respect to you, you haven't really thought through the full picture of what it's like to do this work. Creating the poll takes a lot more than "approximately 10 seconds", but this isn't even the main problem. Now you have to keep track of all the shows that are airing, figure out when the last episode airs, and insert the poll at the right time so that others can vote. You can't do it via a template easily because you're editing an existing thread rather than creating a new one. There can be anywhere from 25-40 shows that start each season, but not all end at the same time. And you get complications, because there are cases where the raw airs at one time, a simulcast may or may not air later, web streams vs. TV airings, whether or not the show is really considered "over" if there are additional episodes to come, and on and on. If we miss a poll or don't do it at the time people deem appropriate, then we start getting reports and complaints in the threads from people who don't understand our logic, and there isn't really a thread (like there is in sub-forums) for people to make requests. And this is all at the same time that a lot of people are already shifting their focus to the next anime season anyway.

All in all, I'm not saying that it isn't doable, but it's a bigger "to do" than you think, and I don't really see that there's a real big need or demand for this at this time. As was pointed out, there are lots of other places that allow you to rate/rank anime, and do a much better job of collecting and presenting all this data than what we could do on the forum. So while I appreciate the idea, I don't think this is something we are going to prioritize at this time. I'm locking the thread.
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