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Old 2013-07-13, 18:37   Link #41
Traece
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Hagakure being a criminal genius would have been hilarious...better yet, it would have been awesome if this were true during the third trial and he was the murderer (at least that trial wouldn't have been as predictable as it was...the execution was really the only good thing about the whole case for me).

Honestly, I'm still surprised who ended up being the survivors in the end...
Honestly, towards the end I was suspecting more and more that Hagakure would be the puppetmaster due to how much of a complete and total loser he was. When you're that bad, you're the badguy.
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Old 2013-07-13, 19:01   Link #42
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Seeing this makes me really curious to see your reaction to Junko's role in Dangan Zero when you eventually get around to reading it.
Sadly, I'm not into reading LNs :|
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Old 2013-07-13, 19:28   Link #43
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There's no real way to confirm or refute that. One thing is for sure, after her plan failed it's possible she honestly tried to save Naegi.
I don't think she ever intended for Naegi to die in the first place. Since the rules of the trial weren't introduced until after Sayaka died, she had no idea that Naegi would have to identify the culprit or be executed otherwise.

Most likely her plan after making the kill was to put the blame on Naegi, then have Naegi who promised to protect her and help her escape the school would voluntarily take the blame. While still underhanded, there was nothing leading her to believe Naegi would have died because of it.

When her plan did backfire, her idea was to let Naegi know who the culprit was so that he can prevent himself from being murdered by the same guy (or maybe she just wanted to get back at the culprit...). She probably had no idea Naegi would use her message as evidence in a trial.
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Old 2013-07-13, 19:49   Link #44
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You're giving her a bit too much credit. Remember, she was completely broken under the pressure, I don't think she was able to think as clearly as that.
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Old 2013-07-13, 19:58   Link #45
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Yea..............I think she put up the message just to get back at Leon xD
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:01   Link #46
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I don't think she ever intended for Naegi to die in the first place. Since the rules of the trial weren't introduced until after Sayaka died, she had no idea that Naegi would have to identify the culprit or be executed otherwise.

Most likely her plan after making the kill was to put the blame on Naegi, then have Naegi who promised to protect her and help her escape the school would voluntarily take the blame. While still underhanded, there was nothing leading her to believe Naegi would have died because of it.

When her plan did backfire, her idea was to let Naegi know who the culprit was so that he can prevent himself from being murdered by the same guy (or maybe she just wanted to get back at the culprit...). She probably had no idea Naegi would use her message as evidence in a trial.
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You're giving her a bit too much credit. Remember, she was completely broken under the pressure, I don't think she was able to think as clearly as that.
It's doubtful that she would be so clouded by pressure that she would be unable to perform very basic reasoning.

It's pretty clear that Maizono had a thing for Naegi, and not just in the days since they arrived at the academy. It actually makes less sense for Maizono to have crafted a murder plan together and not accounted for the well being of the guy she's liked for years and even more so now than ever before. Plus, that would be too simple compared to the rest of the writing in Danganronpa.

This is part of why it's funny to see the people who, unfortunately, think that Maizono threw Naegi under the bus to escape herself and was just using him. Literally it's the opposite of the truth. Unfortunately those viewers wont know the truth without seeing the game.

If Maizono had succeeded in her murder it would have been very interesting to see her reaction when she realized that Naegi was doomed to die, at the cost of her "escape." I suspect that she would have been conflicted (although I doubt she would have chosen Naegi over her goals and dreams ultimately).
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:01   Link #47
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You're giving her a bit too much credit. Remember, she was completely broken under the pressure, I don't think she was able to think as clearly as that.
I don't see how it's a plan that would require much thinking. She knew she had Naegi wrapped around her finger, which is why she asked to switch rooms to frame him for the murder she was going to commit. The fact that Sayaka was likely planning to frame Naegi was something brought up during the trial.

There is also no reason to believe Sayaka would think Naegi would get killed because Monokuma never mentioned the trial until after the first murder took place. Sure, I don't think she cared what happened to Naegi at the time because she was prioritizing her own life, but I don't think she expected Naegi to die either.

Also, she wasn't "broken completely under the pressure". She had time to regain her composure. There is a difference between "Don't touch me! I need to get out of here NOW!" and "Can we switch rooms? I would feel more comfortable that way".
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:03   Link #48
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Spoiler for Definitely game spoiler; only read if you finished the game:
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:05   Link #49
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As stated before, the game give a lot of implications regarding Sayaka before the incentive part and the execution parts (most important part being her crush for Makoto). And even without knowing that, Sayaka didn't choose the most efficient course of action: killing Makoto (which is clearly possible without leaving evidence as he would open his door to her no problem).

Also, among all people, Kyouko isn't the type of character who comfort people for the heck of it: considering her skills and personality, her statements aren't just for comfort, but also back out by logic behind.
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:08   Link #50
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I don't get where you get these assurances that she actually had a thing for Naegi...she could have been playing him from the get-go. In a situation like that, having a guy that clearly has a thing for you at your beck and call is a major advantage.
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:10   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
I don't get where you get these assurances that she actually had a thing for Naegi...she could have been playing him from the get-go. In a situation like that, having a guy that clearly has a thing for you at your beck and call is a major advantage.
That's because you get her social links way before shit really hit the fan: their interactions worked out before the first incentive.
And assuming she really didn't care about him, I don't get why she magically remember that moment where Makoto was treating a crane. And she blatantly asks if Makoto has a girlfriend, and mentions she is interest in someone.

If she really wanted to screw Makoto, she would just ask him to go out with her or something.
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:17   Link #52
Randrak42
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I suppose...though I dunno if that is enough to say she had a thing for him. But that might just be me :|
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:19   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
As stated before, the game give a lot of implications regarding Sayaka before the incentive part and the execution parts (most important part being her crush for Makoto). And even without knowing that, Sayaka didn't choose the most efficient course of action: killing Makoto (which is clearly possible without leaving evidence as he would open his door to her no problem).
Killing someone without resistance does not eliminate evidence. She would still need to eliminate the body (which is difficult in itself). Not only that, but since Ishihara demanded everyone meet in the mornings, everyone would get suspicious and find the body eventually even if Monokuma didn't announce it.

She would be prime suspect since everyone would have an alibi except her who explicitly stated she was following Naegi around as his "assistant".

Sayaka knew she couldn't get rid of the body (which would have evidence on it), which is why she intended to make Naegi be the scapegoat even when she was going to attack her target by surprise and kill him before he could resist.
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:23   Link #54
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Also again: We never know who naegi's girlfriend was.(ante incident)
We know it was one of them for sure, since no matter which picture you look at you will always see him close to either Sayaka or Kyouko.
Then there is this strange attraction between naegi and both of them.

So my guess is:
Maizono was in love with Naegi once but eventually lost to Kirigiri. As a result she became Leon's girlfriend.
During the interactions you can clearly see that spending time with Kirigiri or Maizono is different from spending time with Sakura , Asahina or Celes.

So its save to assume one of them was his girlfriend at some point. Its not even strange to think that considering how they were locked in the academy for at least a year before the incident has happened.
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:23   Link #55
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Disposing the corpse isn't really necessary as long as the murder weapon and other evidences are disposed of: they don't have forensic at all, and if it wasn't for the trash room evidences and the bloody message, Leon would be at large until they check everyone tool set.

Assuming Sayaka enter in Makoto's room around 1AM like she invited Leon, she could simply knock him down by surprise and kill him with simple method (suffocation and so forth) leaving not that much evidence.
Granted, that's a lot assumption from my part, but killing Makoto had far less risk than taking on any other guys, especially she could just do it in Makoto's room.


That aside: I completely forgot Makoto actually had a girlfriend. In which scene it was mentioned again?
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:26   Link #56
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Disposing the corpse isn't really an issue as long as the murder weapon and other evidences are disposed of: they don't have forensic at all, and if it wasn't for the trash room evidences and the bloody message, Leon would be at large until they check everyone tool set.

Assuming Sayaka enter in Makoto's room around 1AM like she invited Leon, she could simply knock him down by surprise and kill him with simple method (suffocation and so forth) leaving not that much evidence.
Aren't you forgetting that Monokuma provides everyone with an autopsy report on their electroIDs?

That's not to mention that every murderer in the game never once disposed of the victim's body.
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:29   Link #57
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Aren't you forgetting that Monokuma provides everyone with an autopsy report on their electroIDs?

That's not to mention that every murderer in the game never once disposed of the victim's body.
Actually, Monokuma "autopsy" is rather plain and very vague. Sakura and Mukuro's cases were misleading as heck.
Save the approximate time of death, Monokuma file hardly supplement information that someone couldn't pick up. I mean, it isn't as close to PW where the report state if the death was instantaneous or not etc.
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:38   Link #58
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Actually, Monokuma "autopsy" is rather plain and very vague. Sakura and Mukuro's cases were misleading as heck.
Save the approximate time of death, Monokuma file hardly supplement information that someone couldn't pick up.
The notes on Sakura and Mukuro were intentionally misleading because by then, Monokuma was actively intervening. But that's a different part of the story anyway.

The issue is that even something like a stab wound and the location of the crime scene counts as evidence, even if it's something any one of the students could pick up. Even if the culprit can't be specifically identified, they could all still be labeled as suspects and are therefore not entirely off the hook yet.

For Sayaka's body, the fact that they were allowed to see her body and identify the fact that her wrist was broken allowed Naegi to use it specifically as evidence to prove that there was a struggle. That is not disposing all evidence.
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:43   Link #59
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Disposing the corpse isn't really necessary as long as the murder weapon and other evidences are disposed of: they don't have forensic at all, and if it wasn't for the trash room evidences and the bloody message, Leon would be at large until they check everyone tool set.

Assuming Sayaka enter in Makoto's room around 1AM like she invited Leon, she could simply knock him down by surprise and kill him with simple method (suffocation and so forth) leaving not that much evidence.
Granted, that's a lot assumption from my part, but killing Makoto had far less risk than taking on any other guys, especially she could just do it in Makoto's room.


That aside: I completely forgot Makoto actually had a girlfriend. In which scene it was mentioned again?
It never was mentioned he had a girlfriend.
Its just that feeling of mutal attraction between the characters, so my sentence was pure speculation based on the fact that you only get this from the sentences Maizono and Kyouko exchange with Naegi, while you get a completely different impression when, for example, Sakura talks with him.

Though your thoery is not that wrong.
If you take a look around in Sayaka's room after the switch they will tell you that Monokuma put a human pressure point diagramm next to the sewing kit.#
That in combination whith the sentence 'I don't care what happens in the dorms [....]', clearly hints that the sewing kit was actually meant for the
girls to use their bodies, and kill the boys afterwards using the sewing kit.

That is at least the only explaination for the pressure point diagramm being there, since I kinda doubt Junko would give them a sewing kit just to sew the boys buttons back on.
On the other hand we got the boy's tool kit whicch was clearly not meant for construction of repair (Ch 1 whentaking a look at the tool kit).

So yeah back to my point why your theory can't be that far off:
Junko actually intended the girls to kill boys who felt close enough to trust them.

All those things combined with the rule that no one must sleep outside of bedrooms (not it doesn't say your own bedroom) pretty much tells the girls to kill the boys off in their sleep.

Yet Sayaka decided that she didn't want to kill Naegi even though she could have easily done it using very simple tools originationg in her very own room.

You can thus conclude that she wasn't all like ' oh look at that fool I got him completely around my palm, but I give a *** what happens to him.''
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Old 2013-07-13, 20:45   Link #60
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Of course the body count as evidence itself, but that's arguably not possible to dispose of it within DR setup, especially early on.
That being said, having incertainty in the number of suspects is a glaring issue, due to the jury system here.

Considering what it is at stake, an uncertain trial would lead to a lot of arguements, and Monokuma will obviously cut short of the discussion sooner or later. While a perfect crime isn't really possible in DR, increasing the number of suspects is possible. And in such case, it will be a deterrent for the jury, since they would rather vote with confidence than shooting in the dark.

I think a very troublesome opponent in such situation wouldn't be the one who manage framing perfectly another character. Instead, if a murder is done in such fashion that a lot of survivors could potentially be the suspect for it, that would be hellishly more difficult to deal with.
That is to say, Sayaka only handicap is that she could potentially be suspected for hanging around with Makoto recently, but past that there wouldn't be any decisive evidence.
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