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Old 2013-08-09, 08:10   Link #81
Artimus_Prime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikohowell View Post
so basically once hashirama absorbs the sage mode, its the of the world huh

unless hmmmmm
que??
I know discussion on this issue has mostly centered around hashirama's senjutsu abilities but regarding madara moving to rob shodaime of more power, here is what i really think:

while we have seen actual pics of the original sons of the sage, for all intents and purposes, hash and madara are their incarnations. a few chapters back madara said to hashirama, "your time is up", according to the translation i read. considering the above, i took that to mean 'say lil bro, your chance to fix this world has passed. im gonna take that power/mantle dad gave you and show you how it is suppose to be done'.

so whether its sage chakra, or something else, we know shodaime has divine abilities and madara would need to add those to his own in order to have the true power of the sage of 6...obito with his transplanted eye and zetsu cells is roughly just an incomplete version.

just speculation though...
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Old 2013-08-09, 08:34   Link #82
itachi-san314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
so whether its sage chakra, or something else, we know shodaime has divine abilities and madara would need to add those to his own in order to have the true power of the sage of 6...obito with his transplanted eye and zetsu cells is roughly just an incomplete version.

just speculation though...
i think you're right that madara and hashirama are essentially the incarnations of the sage's sons. but that means that not just hashirama, but madara also has divine powers, which he does. if you think about it, the only rinnegan we've ever seen in the series is madara's. nagato's and obito's are all madara's eyes in the first place so his sole ability to achieve rinnegan is indeed godlike, much like hashirama's body and nature manipulation is indeed godlike. and now of course, sasuke and naruto are the next incarnations of these gods.
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Old 2013-08-09, 10:34   Link #83
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i think you're right that madara and hashirama are essentially the incarnations of the sage's sons. but that means that not just hashirama, but madara also has divine powers, which he does. if you think about it, the only rinnegan we've ever seen in the series is madara's. nagato's and obito's are all madara's eyes in the first place so his sole ability to achieve rinnegan is indeed godlike, much like hashirama's body and nature manipulation is indeed godlike. and now of course, sasuke and naruto are the next incarnations of these gods.
Yes, u are correct. And i agree. In the phrase "add to his own" I was saying add to his own divine powers, just didn't type the word ...along the same lines, I'm really hoping we get some lore concerning rikudo vs jyuubi. I mean the story has elevated to near godlike fighting, so I'm interested in know why there was a fight to begin with
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Last edited by Artimus_Prime; 2013-08-09 at 14:43.
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Old 2013-08-09, 16:46   Link #84
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Sasuke needs to gain/awaking his own rinnegan then.Which i would guess he is going to.And how he gets it has been guessed before,with kyuubi chakra.maybe.And why when i said Madaras trump card was gaining/absorbing more power from Hashirama yous said no way.
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Old 2013-08-10, 00:33   Link #85
Cookie-Monster
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didnt realize how big a deal naruto getting sage mode was. The kages seemed quite surprised Naruto could use sage mode.

What do you think was the biggest power jump among these three?

Attaining sagemode,
Learning the rasengan shuriken
Getting Kyubi's friendship/cooperation

In other words.

Imagine 3 naruto's are going to fight in a tournament.

Naruto 1
Has sage mode, and all of naruto's usual tricks.
But he doesn't have rasengan shuriken, and Kyuubi is still a sour-puss to him.

Naruto 2
Has rasengan shuriken, and all of naruto's usual tricks.
But he can't use sagemode, and kyuubi is still a sourpuss to him.

Naruto 3
Has the kyuubi's friendship / willing participation, and all of Naruto's usual tricks.
But he can't use Rasengan shuriken or sagemode. ,

Of the three, who would come out on top if they fought each other in turns?
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Old 2013-08-10, 04:15   Link #86
Kenu
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Personally I think befriending the Kyuubi was his greatest achievement. The others were about discipline and training. It's much harder to win someone over, regardless how practiced you are with Talk-no-jutsu.... (see Sasuke)
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Old 2013-08-10, 07:46   Link #87
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Why didn't Kabuto edo tensei the Uchiha clan for the War. Orocchimaru been getting dead body for a long time so he should have a few around. Either im more evil than he is or he didn't want to win the war to begin with.
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Old 2013-08-10, 08:00   Link #88
Tchadnis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster View Post
didnt realize how big a deal naruto getting sage mode was. The kages seemed quite surprised Naruto could use sage mode.

What do you think was the biggest power jump among these three?

Attaining sagemode,
Learning the rasengan shuriken
Getting Kyubi's friendship/cooperation

In other words.

Imagine 3 naruto's are going to fight in a tournament.

Naruto 1
Has sage mode, and all of naruto's usual tricks.
But he doesn't have rasengan shuriken, and Kyuubi is still a sour-puss to him.

Naruto 2
Has rasengan shuriken, and all of naruto's usual tricks.
But he can't use sagemode, and kyuubi is still a sourpuss to him.

Naruto 3
Has the kyuubi's friendship / willing participation, and all of Naruto's usual tricks.
But he can't use Rasengan shuriken or sagemode. ,

Of the three, who would come out on top if they fought each other in turns?
No matter the ninjutsu Naruto 3 will be more powerful next will be the Naruto 1 , after all tailed beast are powerful entity , and we haven't see the full extend of Sage mode yet , just a lil glimpse of it , since so many people couldnt archive it , i believe it quite powerful but since we dont know the full extent yet i vote for the 3.
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Old 2013-08-10, 08:21   Link #89
Artimus_Prime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster View Post
didnt realize how big a deal naruto getting sage mode was. The kages seemed quite surprised Naruto could use sage mode.

What do you think was the biggest power jump among these three?

Attaining sagemode,
Learning the rasengan shuriken
Getting Kyubi's friendship/cooperation

In other words.

Imagine 3 naruto's are going to fight in a tournament.

Naruto 1
Has sage mode, and all of naruto's usual tricks.
But he doesn't have rasengan shuriken, and Kyuubi is still a sour-puss to him.

Naruto 2
Has rasengan shuriken, and all of naruto's usual tricks.
But he can't use sagemode, and kyuubi is still a sourpuss to him.

Naruto 3
Has the kyuubi's friendship / willing participation, and all of Naruto's usual tricks.
But he can't use Rasengan shuriken or sagemode. ,

Of the three, who would come out on top if they fought each other in turns?
Only minato seemed surprised by sage mode. Nidaime is more or less surprised that naruto is smarter than he initially gave him credit for.

In regards to these power up, I would agree with @Kenu that friending the kyuubi was a big deal. We all know how important chakra is in the ninja world, so having a near infinite power source is a major attribute. But if we look at tier of ninja from the lowest to the sage, we see that the strongest ones are better manipulators of that chakra. So I would first acknowledge Naruto .5 who learned the original rasengan, an S rank jutsu of difficult chakra manipulation. Next I would have to make a distinction between rasengan shuriken and futon rasengan shuriken. Both require creative manipulation of chakra affinity but the former is basically kamikaze (sp?) thus depowered in my eyes, and the latter requires sage mode which isnt one of the options. That said Naruto 1 (physical+nature chakra) is roughly equivalent to Naruto 3 (physical+kyuubi chakra) cuz they are both just battery powered narutos with the bijuudama tipping the scales in favor of naruto 3 now. hashirama sage mode summons dieties and what not that dwarf a full powered susanoo garbed kyuubi. so naruto 1 still has enormous potential.

Im waiting to use naruto 9000. Sage+kyuubi+rasengan with futon and suiton who basically can throw a big ass rasengan hurricane. You know since nature chakra is the only thing that can beat Juubito right now

Actually I imagine he’d need more than wind and water. Considering he and sasuke have already performed a combined attack, I guess sasuke would fill in the blank with whatever would be missing

Just speculation tho…
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Old 2013-08-10, 10:04   Link #90
sayde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster View Post
didnt realize how big a deal naruto getting sage mode was. The kages seemed quite surprised Naruto could use sage mode.

What do you think was the biggest power jump among these three?

Attaining sagemode,
Learning the rasengan shuriken
Getting Kyubi's friendship/cooperation

In other words.

Imagine 3 naruto's are going to fight in a tournament.

Naruto 1
Has sage mode, and all of naruto's usual tricks.
But he doesn't have rasengan shuriken, and Kyuubi is still a sour-puss to him.

Naruto 2
Has rasengan shuriken, and all of naruto's usual tricks.
But he can't use sagemode, and kyuubi is still a sourpuss to him.

Naruto 3
Has the kyuubi's friendship / willing participation, and all of Naruto's usual tricks.
But he can't use Rasengan shuriken or sagemode. ,

Of the three, who would come out on top if they fought each other in turns?
Not trying to turn this into a vs thread, but if those 3 versions were to fight, I'd vote for the 3 coming out on top as of now. As useful as rasenshuriken has become, it can still be dodged. So 2 doesn't have as much going for it IMO if that's the only unique advantage he's got. And since Kyuubi mode has been seen to augment Naruto's physical capabilities to degrees that rival or surpass sage mode on top of giving him access to extra abilities and techniques, I'd say 9-tails fox mode is just a better and more versatile power up under this particular circumstance. Even his speed in that mode surpasses the Raikage's. And if that wasn't enough, the 9-tails fox mode with Kyuubi's participation serves as a power up with a very lengthy duration (in comparison to sage mode) if he's not sharing Kurama's chakra with everyone.
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Old 2013-08-10, 11:57   Link #91
Bakaizer
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^ i think naruto can use sagemode even in kyuubi mode
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Old 2013-08-10, 13:03   Link #92
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Also if I remember correctly, Naruto is not able to "throw" his rasenshuriken without Kyuubi power or sage mode. So basically "Naruto2" would be at the power level when he fought against Kakuzu
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Old 2013-08-10, 13:06   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Also if I remember correctly, Naruto is not able to "throw" his rasenshuriken without Kyuubi power or sage mode. So basically "Naruto2" would be at the power level when he fought against Kakuzu
And that just happens to damage his hand as well so he can't use it too many times. Really, Naruto2 is just the weakest.
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Old 2013-08-10, 13:09   Link #94
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I don't think that rasenshuriken is anything strong on it's own compared to sage mode and kyuubi mode. Even if we disregard the fact that rasenshuriken can be used only in a powerup mode, still that in itself would be pretty useless against Pain, 3rd raikage or anyone really strong. Each time Naruto used it he had to combine it with other tricks to do the job and also only in sage or kyuubi mode was he able to use tricks like chakra arms to successfully hit the opponent, otherwise he would have missed them.
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Old 2013-08-10, 14:52   Link #95
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I don't think that rasenshuriken is anything strong on it's own compared to sage mode and kyuubi mode. Even if we disregard the fact that rasenshuriken can be used only in a powerup mode, still that in itself would be pretty useless against Pain, 3rd raikage or anyone really strong. Each time Naruto used it he had to combine it with other tricks to do the job and also only in sage or kyuubi mode was he able to use tricks like chakra arms to successfully hit the opponent, otherwise he would have missed them.
i think its actually pretty darn strong on its own. in fact, i cant think of a reason why he just didnt throw the dogone thing at juubito other than kishi wanting to give tobirama some more flash
the only person in the manga thus far it should not ever have an affect on is the third raikage secondary to his powered up armored body...and of course catching him cause hes so fast...
we can argue edo madara only because it isnt known whether or not there is any cool down time between his rinnegan jutsu (ie the chakra absorption, and the assumed shinra tensei).
once naruto rid pain of the chakra pain, it was just a matter of landing a hit within the 5 second cool down window...

it sounds like you are arguing tactics...not being able to accurately throw a grenade doesnt weaken the explosion.
the jutsu itself is crazy strong
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Old 2013-08-10, 21:37   Link #96
Cookie-Monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I don't think that rasenshuriken is anything strong on it's own compared to sage mode and kyuubi mode. Even if we disregard the fact that rasenshuriken can be used only in a powerup mode, still that in itself would be pretty useless against Pain, 3rd raikage or anyone really strong. Each time Naruto used it he had to combine it with other tricks to do the job and also only in sage or kyuubi mode was he able to use tricks like chakra arms to successfully hit the opponent, otherwise he would have missed them.
Thats one thing I'm curious about.

How strong is rasengan shuriken on its own?

Every-time its landed, it has been game over. Has there been any insight on how destructive it is against *defenses*

I put the asterisk on the word *defense* because Rinnegan's chakra absorption is kind of a cheat defense. I think of defense more as a barrier (chakra/physical) that the shinobi puts up to block the incoming damage.

To put it simply ; If the enemy makes no attempt to dodge, and simply puts up the strongest shields we've seen so far (Susanno, Gaara's mama shield, Orochimaru's Tripple gates of badass, etc ) Would they still die ?
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Old 2013-08-10, 21:48   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster View Post
Thats one thing I'm curious about.

How strong is rasengan shuriken on its own?

Every-time its landed, it has been game over. Has there been any insight on how destructive it is against *defenses*?
Not every time. Check chapter 554. Even though the third raikage did attempt to avoid the Rasenshuriken, Naruto did eventually manage to nail him with the attack while in 9-tails chakra mode. However, despite landing a clean hit, the raikage made it out unscathed without using any special techniques that I know of. So there's at least one instance of someone's own natural durability being superior to rasenshuriken's destructive power.
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Old 2013-08-10, 22:47   Link #98
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Bad news, guys. No chapter next week due to a festival event. You can check the info. on narutobase net for more information.

That kind of sucks. I was really looking forward to Kyuubi's other half.
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Old 2013-08-10, 23:49   Link #99
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Not every time. Check chapter 554. Even though the third raikage did attempt to avoid the Rasenshuriken, Naruto did eventually manage to nail him with the attack while in 9-tails chakra mode. However, despite landing a clean hit, the raikage made it out unscathed without using any special techniques that I know of. So there's at least one instance of someone's own natural durability being superior to rasenshuriken's destructive power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
i think its actually pretty darn strong on its own. in fact, i cant think of a reason why he just didnt throw the dogone thing at juubito other than kishi wanting to give tobirama some more flash
the only person in the manga thus far it should not ever have an affect on is the third raikage secondary to his powered up armored body...and of course catching him cause hes so fast...
we can argue edo madara only because it isnt known whether or not there is any cool down time between his rinnegan jutsu (ie the chakra absorption, and the assumed shinra tensei).
once naruto rid pain of the chakra pain, it was just a matter of landing a hit within the 5 second cool down window...

it sounds like you are arguing tactics...not being able to accurately throw a grenade doesnt weaken the explosion.
the jutsu itself is crazy strong
if the question is about barriers, i guess it would be the same as you blocking an uppercut. the likelihood of you being knocked out falls significantly. the FRS has to make a clean hit. the only way barriers fail is if naruto suddenly makes the FRS to have attributes similiar to those black spheres juubito has...you know, ninjustu cancellation.
but in this story so far, the 3rd raikage is the only ninja that'll likely survive that clean hit
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Old 2013-08-11, 03:21   Link #100
Ero-Senn1n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
i think its actually pretty darn strong on its own. in fact, i cant think of a reason why he just didnt throw the dogone thing at juubito other than kishi wanting to give tobirama some more flash
Isn't it obvious from the start: after the powerup the fight began by Tobito cutting in half the 1st and 2nd and they couldn't even react he was so fast. Also anyone who has the rinnegan can absorb it or repel it. See how they hit Obito with an amaterasu-rasenshuriken and there's no effect. It was a clear hit, and this version with amaterasu is obviously much stronger than the normal rasenshuriken. Tobito cancelled most of it with his black orbs but we also see his body healing the damage. So he can even heal damage easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
the only person in the manga thus far it should not ever have an affect on is the third raikage secondary to his powered up armored body...and of course catching him cause hes so fast...
I think if he were not an Edo Tensei he would not be able to heal the damage, so Naruto could have beaten the raikage by using more resenshurikens to damage him as much as he wants. I mean even if the damage was minimal but still it would be effective because the raikage when alive doesn't have the healing ability. So Naruto with kyuubi chakra and sage mode could have repeteated his attacks until enough damage adds up and the raikage can't take any more. But that would be a pretty boring fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
once naruto rid pain of the chakra pain, it was just a matter of landing a hit within the 5 second cool down window...
In that situation Nagato was at his limit, he was severely weakened so that Naruto could finish him off with a regular rasengan. Again he couldn't do it with the rasenshuriken, also Naruto lost so much chakra that he couldn't even make another rasenshuriken, his sage mode ran out and he had no sage clones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
it sounds like you are arguing tactics...not being able to accurately throw a grenade doesnt weaken the explosion.
the jutsu itself is crazy strong
I'm just arguing that on this level of battles all enemies can either dodge or absorb/reflect the jutsu, so on it's own it's useless, it must be combined with tactics and other abilities to make it land on the target.

Of course if Naruto used rasenshuriken against your average jounin he would have massacred them. But from the stronger guys even Kakashi has the ability to warp the rasenshuriken away into another dimension. Of course Kakashi would be dead after doing so 2-3 times, since he would run out of chakra.
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