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Old 2003-11-21, 03:39   Link #41
Go-lytely
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoro
actually lets be thankful rommel didnt get the reinforcements huh? haha

actually if it wasnt for mussolini there is a high chance Europe would be just Germany. yea those italien soldiers had no morality at all. They just gave up, like French did in Paris.

Yea Monty and Ike were pussies. Patton wouldve stopped not only germans quickly, but he even suggested we go all the way to russia, and stop them b4 its too late.

Actually during the korean war, US was the only ones with nukes i believe. it took Russia 3(?) more yrs to develope their first nuke. So it wouldve been US just nuking China. and korea would be safer. I mean that border is so heavily foritified. They stand 5 ft from the border and stare at each other. Couple of gaurds, the whole time, they just stare at each other. N koreans at the S. and americans
The Russians had their first successful nuclear test in 1949, just before the Korean War. America was already way ahead in the nuclear arms race by this point, but Truman was too much of a pussy to allow even the threat of nukes. He handcuffed the American pilots with rules of engagement and China was able to resupply from bases in Manchuria at will. I think its ironic that Truman bombed Nagasaki and Hiroshima to save American lives but refused to do so in Korea.
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Old 2003-11-21, 03:44   Link #42
Mr. Bushido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go-lytely
The Russians had their first successful nuclear test in 1949, just before the Korean War. America was already way ahead in the nuclear arms race by this point, but Truman was too much of a pussy to allow even the threat of nukes. He handcuffed the American pilots with rules of engagement and China was able to resupply from bases in Manchuria at will. I think its ironic that Truman bombed Nagasaki and Hiroshima to save American lives but refused to do so in Korea.
ic then i was wrong. haha. remind me when the hydrogen bomb was done by the US.
also nuking china wouldnt be a threat, since russia would have no way of nuking USA, since carrier force of Russia sucked at tat time, and no ICBM or satellites were made at this time. Russia would need to bomb Alaska since they have no bases near by that can reach america. and they didn have the B-29s (OOO YEA!)
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Old 2003-11-21, 04:41   Link #43
Sepiraph
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoro
Napoleon is one of my fav generals, but that was LONG time ago haha.

general MacArthur was great, pacific general.
Rommel was a great general too... but i remember he had some sort of mental problem or some sort of diesease.
What are u talking about? Rommel never had mental problem nor any diease, and he was well-respected by not only the Germans, but the allies as well.

Napoleon is a great general, but his big mistake was Moscow. Hilter didn't seem to learn that lesson.

Alexander the Great must have been a genius to achieve what he did, even though he was given the army by his father, that guy got guts and vision to take his army to India!

Other great strategists and generals of WWII are Manstein and Guderian, the latter was said to have never lost a single battle, but may have costed German the war. Patton was great too, although by the time he entered, the war was almost over.
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Old 2003-11-21, 06:09   Link #44
Mad Cat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepiraph
What are u talking about? Rommel never had mental problem nor any diease, and he was well-respected by not only the Germans, but the allies as well.

Napoleon is a great general, but his big mistake was Moscow. Hilter didn't seem to learn that lesson.

Alexander the Great must have been a genius to achieve what he did, even though he was given the army by his father, that guy got guts and vision to take his army to India!

Other great strategists and generals of WWII are Manstein and Guderian, the latter was said to have never lost a single battle, but may have costed German the war. Patton was great too, although by the time he entered, the war was almost over.
Rommel got sick in Africa and was recalled to Germany and when he got well again he went down and tryed to solve a impossible situasion

Ps. Nukes are for pussys
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Old 2003-11-21, 11:33   Link #45
Anlushac11
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Cool

May I direct your attention to...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t80tank.htm

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t-90.htm

The first is a modern revision of the T-64, the second is a revision of the T-72 with better armor and an improved main gun. These dont impress me much.

Now this, this impresses me.
http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/MBT/b_eagle.html

And the US doesnt use autoloaders as they have a tendancy to break down and humans are much more reliable. Its much easier to get a replacement human and teach him to be a loader than to get a part when your 500 miles from nowhere in the middle of the desert.

Depleted uranium penetrators wre chosen by the army because at the time it was the densest material that could "safetly" manufacture into a penetrator. A added side effect considered valuable was that when the depleted uranium penetrator hits it phosporeses(is that right word?). Meaning once it penetrates it becomes like a incindeary round and sets fire to whatever it can, increasing the chance of a fire inside the enemy vehicle. Depleted uranium is not intended to be a radioactive weapon. Depleted uranium is made into a meshand is incorporated into the hulls of the M1A1 Abrams as part of the Staballoy Chobham armor.

Next version of the M1, possibly the M1A3 is being designed. Some want to go with a cleft turret with crew of 3 in hull and a 155mm autoloaded main gun.

Tanks will never be obsolete. As long as someone has a piece of ground and someone else wants it there will be wars and battles. A man on the ground has to claim it and stand on it before it is "captured". That man on the ground will need some sort of vehicle to support and protect him so he can get there while keeping the enemy away or driving them back.

Ever since the tank has appeared it has been declared obsolete several times. Technology goes back and forth between tank and anti tank weapons having the edge.

Mecha are vulnerable to anti-tank rounds like anything else, OK not if they have a A.T. field granted but those were exceptions not the norm.

I think what we will see is the return of the light or medium tank. The big land behemoths being fielded now are huge and too heavy. And expensive. They will only be brought in when a big decisive battle is expected.

I expect that many armies will start fielding smaller, cheaper, easier to operate tanks. This company has had good sales success with its Stingray
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stingray-lt.htm

And this was intended to replace the M551 Sheridan light airborne tank but was cancelled.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/sk-105.htm

And this is Europes main contender in the light tank market. Basically very similar and baed off of the French AMX 13
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/sk-105.htm
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Old 2003-11-21, 13:12   Link #46
Mad Cat
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One thing about the T-80 is that it got Cermite armor and in the info i didnt even say
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Old 2003-11-21, 22:29   Link #47
Silent Spring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoro
ic then i was wrong. haha. remind me when the hydrogen bomb was done by the US.
also nuking china wouldnt be a threat, since russia would have no way of nuking USA, since carrier force of Russia sucked at tat time, and no ICBM or satellites were made at this time. Russia would need to bomb Alaska since they have no bases near by that can reach america. and they didn have the B-29s (OOO YEA!)
You're advocating nuclear war? You're talking about the lives of millions of koreans and chinese here, plus the nuclear fallout would have spread and cause huge amounts of dammage all across Asia, including south korea. They really didn't understand nuclear fallout at this time which would have made it even more terrible. Also the Soviet Union doesn't have the strike at the United States directly, they could have just struck west of the iron curtian, and WWIII could have started.
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Old 2003-11-21, 22:49   Link #48
Mr. Bushido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Spring
You're advocating nuclear war? You're talking about the lives of millions of koreans and chinese here, plus the nuclear fallout would have spread and cause huge amounts of dammage all across Asia, including south korea. They really didn't understand nuclear fallout at this time which would have made it even more terrible. Also the Soviet Union doesn't have the strike at the United States directly, they could have just struck west of the iron curtian, and WWIII could have started.
my good friend, i was only joking.
it wouldve been nice if they did a full attack on china tho and keep a unified korea, it would be safer today if that was so. But oh well, im living happily.
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Old 2003-11-22, 20:41   Link #49
Silent Spring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepiraph
I'm going to pick from the WW2 period since that it was the era of the tank, and I'd go with either the Russian T-34 or the German Panzer V (aka Panther). If not including factors such as mobility or cost effectiveness, then without a doubt it is the German Panzer VI (aka Tiger or the later variant, the King Tiger).

To continue with this thread, who are some of your favourite generals in history?
King Tigers kicked ass, it was so huge and thick armored that almost nothing could really destroy it. Too bad it was so huge that it couldn't get through forrests and destroyed roads when it ran over it. King tigers whooped on the other tanks, in a flat landscape without much obsticles.
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Old 2003-11-22, 21:17   Link #50
Mr. Bushido
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anyone think we'll be seeing US use laser technology for firing a giant beam at a target from a satelite in space?? hahaha.

The russians were planning on sending gian magnifying glasses in space to warm up the northern parts of russia. it got cancelled because it would take up too much space, and it was too complicated. Maybe if that worked they can focus it more to make some sort of heat ray??

Maybe in the future~ (like when we're having most of wars in space.)

When do u think infantry will be replaced by drones or when will infantry wear armour similar to mechs. More like in matrix rather than anime.

will any of these happen?

Who thinks that China will eventually be able to take USA in any battlefield except in USA itself? many ppl believe 10 yrs, but many also believe never.

When will US gain laser defenses on all their units? (besides infantry)


just throwing bunch of questions since it was getting boring in here(?)
talk about the future of warfare and how u think it might turn out.
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Old 2003-11-22, 21:41   Link #51
144M_HYPERION
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Chinese military is still at least 20 years behind from US, 10 years behind from the NATO countries. Nevertheless it is growing fast.

I think in 15 - 20 years the Chinese will have a force equal to the US. (Both technologies and force)

I love their new Type 52C DDG they are equipped with phase radar and VLS system. I expect the P.L.A.N. will get at least 4 - 5 more DDG in the near future
The new Type 54 frigate also looks nice too. The design is too similar to the French La Fayatte Frigate though ... I hope they'll carry VLS as well
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Old 2003-11-22, 22:02   Link #52
Mad Cat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Spring
Too bad it was so huge that it couldn't get through forrests and destroyed roads when it ran over it. King tigers whooped on the other tanks, in a flat landscape without much obsticles.
thats why they didnt build so meny of them, a T-34-84 could without problem move around a King Tigen i place a shot on the rear armor and in the most cases it went poff.
My dads grandad was in the finish winter war and he have seen King tigers going poff to a T-34 (yes the finns got help from germany with tanks and so on)
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Old 2003-11-22, 22:05   Link #53
Mr. Bushido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 144M_HYPERION
Chinese military is still at least 20 years behind from US, 10 years behind from the NATO countries. Nevertheless it is growing fast.

I think in 15 - 20 years the Chinese will have a force equal to the US. (Both technologies and force)

I love their new Type 52C DDG they are equipped with phase radar and VLS system. I expect the P.L.A.N. will get at least 4 - 5 more DDG in the near future
The new Type 54 frigate also looks nice too. The design is too similar to the French La Fayatte Frigate though ... I hope they'll carry VLS as well
The chinese navy today is the 2nd most powerful and is on par with USA. (Popular Science US military edition)

The army is the 2nd most powerful as well. Technology may be far behind, but as a force they are the 2nd strongest. Its been said by couple of military experts that even US wont succed in an invasion of China mainland.

10 yrs behind NATO?? really? didnt know tat.

another question: Your least favourite army, past and present and why?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Cat
thats why they didnt build so meny of them, a T-34-84 could without problem move around a King Tigen i place a shot on the rear armor and in the most cases it went poff.
My dads grandad was in the finish winter war and he have seen King tigers going poff to a T-34 (yes the finns got help from germany with tanks and so on)
well theres also the fact that by the time Germans developed Tiger tanks they didnt have resources or factories to pull these guys out into the battlefield. Shermans outnumbered all german tanks 10 to 1. And the US P-51s outnumbered all of the Luftwaffe 12 to 1. Germany and Japan had better technolgy* and in many ways better trained troops*1, US was a industry country that pulled out more equipment than all of the Axis army put together.

* the misubish Zeros were the best fighters in WW2. (from Idiot's complete guide too WW2) and they also had subs that carried Zeros. and their torpedoes were the best made. The ships were good, but not comfortble.
Germans developed jet planes, were working on stealth bombers, and had v-1.v-2 rockets and the v-3 supercannon.

*1 at the beginning of the war and almost all the way, japanese pilots proved their chinky eyes had better depth preception, reaction, and accuracy than their american counterparts (Westpoint Military history book: the Pacific battle on WW2)
German generals such as Rommel did better than american generals till the end of the war.


***** btw: Rommel got sick one day, and his sub didnt do well. I got confused over that. oh and hitler had insomnia, and didnt sleep much, but when he did, he was never to be bothered. That is why the Tigers came out late on to the beaches of Normandy.
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Old 2003-11-22, 22:35   Link #54
Kensuke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Cat
My dads grandad was in the finish winter war and he have seen King tigers going poff to a T-34 (yes the finns got help from germany with tanks and so on)
Yes, finns got much of their armament from Germany (fighters, tanks, infantry weapons, food), and Finland on the other allowed german troops use northern Finland as a base to attack Soviet Union, BUT that was Continuation War (1941-44), not Winter War (1939-40), and certainly not King Tigers. Finn's main german tank was StuG III, an assault gun that was also excellent tank killer.
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Old 2003-11-23, 00:16   Link #55
Silent Spring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 144M_HYPERION
Chinese military is still at least 20 years behind from US, 10 years behind from the NATO countries. Nevertheless it is growing fast.

I think in 15 - 20 years the Chinese will have a force equal to the US. (Both technologies and force)

I love their new Type 52C DDG they are equipped with phase radar and VLS system. I expect the P.L.A.N. will get at least 4 - 5 more DDG in the near future
The new Type 54 frigate also looks nice too. The design is too similar to the French La Fayatte Frigate though ... I hope they'll carry VLS as well
I can believe that China has a 20 year gap with the United States in technology, but not at 10 year gap with NATO countires, I mean China can develop their own Nukes, ICBM, nuclear subs, which is much more than most NATO countries can produce. Also don't forget that China just sucessfully sent a man into space, which places it at number 3. And the Type-98 battle tank is amoung the world's best tanks. Also China is developing a laser defense system, and have already developed a laser jamming system. And this is a country that doesn't spend 50% of its income on the military. With 50% of the United State's income flowing into the military and being an economic powerhouse as well, I don't think any country can compare with the United States in military. Still money doesn't mean victory, just take a look at Vietnam.
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Old 2003-11-23, 00:58   Link #56
Mr. Bushido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Spring
I can believe that China has a 20 year gap with the United States in technology, but not at 10 year gap with NATO countires, I mean China can develop their own Nukes, ICBM, nuclear subs, which is much more than most NATO countries can produce. Also don't forget that China just sucessfully sent a man into space, which places it at number 3. And the Type-98 battle tank is amoung the world's best tanks. Also China is developing a laser defense system, and have already developed a laser jamming system. And this is a country that doesn't spend 50% of its income on the military. With 50% of the United State's income flowing into the military and being an economic powerhouse as well, I don't think any country can compare with the United States in military. Still money doesn't mean victory, just take a look at Vietnam.
USA's money got it to win WW2 tho. After WW2 USA's money, Europe's weakened state, and a few German engineers made USA the most powerful force in the world.

vietnam was lots of stupid mistakes, and those guys are one hell of a fighter.

My AP US history teacher last yr was sort of a military expert/fanboy. We were discussing Iraq and why Bush attacks them but not N.Korea who HAS WMD and he said,

"Iraq is nothing, we can go there and blow them up if Bush thinks they have WMD, because Iraq is just a little piggy. North Korea is NOT a little piggy, u dont just walk in there like Iraq. You do not want to piss of North Korea, Israel, Vietnam, and NEVER, EVER piss of China"

gureilla warfare is annoying and effective against giant armies like USA. But countries like vietnam, china, israel and n. korea who has a rather large army, and they STILL use guerilla warfare. China attacking in waves is just a rumor that isnt true.
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Old 2003-11-23, 07:41   Link #57
Mad Cat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensuke
Yes, finns got much of their armament from Germany (fighters, tanks, infantry weapons, food), and Finland on the other allowed german troops use northern Finland as a base to attack Soviet Union, BUT that was Continuation War (1941-44), not Winter War (1939-40), and certainly not King Tigers. Finn's main german tank was StuG III, an assault gun that was also excellent tank killer.
Ah sorry my wrong
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Old 2003-11-23, 18:39   Link #58
Silent Spring
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If you guys should play Command and Conquer Generals, it's suppose to be like 20 years in the future. The story goes that in 20 year in the future, the US and China arise as the world's strongest nations, but a huge terrorist organization (GLA) is fighting an international war of complete world power reform. I think the story line is quite realistic and is a a very possible future of the world. most of the units are complete BS, but some follow current military developments, such as the commanche chopers, Chinese military hackers, and supersonic bombers, etc. but I thouht the expansion Zero Hour was a better game though.

Do you guys think that there will be sealth techology where not even the eye can't see or hard to see? If so how and how long will it take?
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Old 2003-11-23, 18:46   Link #59
BME
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Optic camoflauge is like 100 years into the future.
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Old 2003-11-23, 20:43   Link #60
Mr. Bushido
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its hard to hide from the human eye. at best we'll get "camoflauge" or maybe the plane will shoot out some sort of smoke that makes it look hazy in that area or makes the plane look like a cloud.

C&C generals is a great game. I doubt the Particle cannon will be done in 20 yrs, and it seems impossible for a terrorist organization to get so big and strong.
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