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Old 2010-02-13, 18:52   Link #81
JMvS
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But those tests were 2 years ago (and were mentioned in the wiki pages). There's no information regarding the current situation.

For what I can understand, it's mostly an issue of cost versus enhanced reliability and durability. So yeah, I suppose they are not gonna spend twice or thrice the money on the average Joe for a relative gain in reliability, especially if the current weapon performance is considered satisfactory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
I can vouch for that one! On his first tour of duty my husband said they were making head shots on insurrectionist out to 100yds. with scope equipped M-16A4s! Matter of fact it caused such a stir that DOD launched an investigation into it!
Were 100 yds head shots using scopes really that unexpected? Just asking about real combat condition, as due to our differing traditions and combat doctrines, I've trained only in 300 m shooting range and 30 m boxes, using iron sight and bipod.
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Old 2010-02-13, 21:44   Link #82
Drake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
But those tests were 2 years ago (and were mentioned in the wiki pages). There's no information regarding the current situation.

For what I can understand, it's mostly an issue of cost versus enhanced reliability and durability. So yeah, I suppose they are not gonna spend twice or thrice the money on the average Joe for a relative gain in reliability, especially if the current weapon performance is considered satisfactory.

Its a 40 year old design and M4's gas operating system is inefficient, old fasioned and more prone to more stoppages than its more modern counterparts.

The main point that boggles the mind is that they dont even need to replace they're entire stock of M4's, simply replacing the upper receivers with that of an HK416 would be enough (which ironicly was the original purpose the 416 was designed for).

Surely buying more reliable parts would lead to a saving (in replacement parts and maintenance) in the long run.

Not saying your wrong or anything its just my opinion on it =]
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Old 2010-02-13, 22:09   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Its a 40 year old design and M4's gas operating system is inefficient, old fasioned and more prone to more stoppages than its more modern counterparts.

The main point that boggles the mind is that they dont even need to replace they're entire stock of M4's, simply replacing the upper receivers with that of an HK416 would be enough (which ironicly was the original purpose the 416 was designed for).

Surely buying more reliable parts would lead to a saving (in replacement parts and maintenance) in the long run.

Not saying your wrong or anything its just my opinion on it =]
Actually if we trust the respective wiki pages, Delta are already equipped with HK416, and a Rangers battalion with FN SCAR.

True it's not a big deal to replace the weapon of the very top receivers. But replacing the standard issue weapon over the whole US military is quite a huge thing, logistically speaking (one of the reason why they want to keep the old STANAG magazines).
Hence why they have been keeping with the quite obsolete M16 technology for so long, modifying it's "casing" to compensate. And hesitating to discard it because of the superior cost and "relative" benefits.


Back to Lost Cause question, I suppose they are gonna test the application of those two (the MX8 was probably abandoned for good), seeing that the SCAR's equipment on a whole Rangers Battalion, and attractive modular concept, I suppose they are gonna go with it.
And it seems they will have a modified HK416 replace the M249 instead, a light machine gun.
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Old 2010-02-13, 22:26   Link #84
Drake
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I've read numourous articles about SOG and Rangers getting the 416's and scars but I was referring mainly to the regular army who are stuck with the older m4.

There would be no need to change mags or ordnance tho as the 416's upper receiver will just drop right on the m4 allowing the same mags and ammunition to be used only with the added reliability the 416's system offers.

Dont get me wrong tho aesthetically I still have a soft spot for the old skool m4 hell i've a couple of reps of it myself =D

Spoiler for image:
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Old 2010-02-14, 12:14   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
But those tests were 2 years ago (and were mentioned in the wiki pages). There's no information regarding the current situation.

For what I can understand, it's mostly an issue of cost versus enhanced reliability and durability. So yeah, I suppose they are not gonna spend twice or thrice the money on the average Joe for a relative gain in reliability, especially if the current weapon performance is considered satisfactory.




Were 100 yds head shots using scopes really that unexpected? Just asking about real combat condition, as due to our differing traditions and combat doctrines, I've trained only in 300 m shooting range and 30 m boxes, using iron sight and bipod.
According to my husband it was the imbedded reporters who made such a big stink about it that an investigation was launched. Seems that the only target the insurrectionist presented to the Marines was the top of their heads and the Marines took advantage of the accuracy potential of the M16 by taking head shots.
Also I don't know about the other branches but the Marines start rifle marksmanship one like day 5 of bootcamp and my husband said that they are trained to make shots out to 500yds. with the A4,while the M4 is limited to 300yds.
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Old 2010-02-14, 21:46   Link #86
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weapons help take mans life, weapons are the destruction behind wars.

so what's so good about them?
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Old 2010-02-14, 22:00   Link #87
Lost Cause
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Originally Posted by john_kun View Post
weapons help take mans life, weapons are the destruction behind wars.

so what's so good about them?
Weapons are merely tools and like any tool it depends on how the end user use it! Weapons also save lives. What is so good about them you ask? They give you the ability to look evil in the eye and tell it "This far and no farther"! Besides the only true evil is when we stand by and let it win. I really don't think you have seen the true evil man is capable of though.
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Old 2010-02-15, 00:15   Link #88
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john_kun View Post
weapons help take mans life, weapons are the destruction behind wars.

so what's so good about them?
because they're awesome.

Oh, and I like that the PAK FA is finally out. I hope it goes into production.

Last edited by LeoXiao; 2010-02-15 at 00:30.
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Old 2010-02-15, 01:51   Link #89
Claies
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I'm not a huge fan of land vehicles (I prefer air power, particularly UAVs), but because I'm depressed that everybody in my circle of airsofting friends fields the M9 Beretta and other pistols get far less representation...

Favorite pistols, go.
- M1911, modern variants that hold >=10 rounds.
- Browning Hi-Power
- H&K USP

I like, but probably won't use in battle:
- Stechkin APS
- Makarov PM

I'll ask about rifles later, because said circle of airsofters also all field FN SCARs. Good-looking, very functional rifle, but doesn't make me happier.
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Old 2010-02-15, 15:52   Link #90
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FN Herstal's Five-Seven and P90. Need to say more?
Apparently i do.
The fire it rounds, 7.62 if i rememebr correctly, is amazing. Light-weight, pierces kevlar with relative ease and stops the target. What's bad is that FN stuff is hard to come by for an average Joe or Jill.
And their fire rate is good, accuracy near perfect, fairly reliable, lightweight and compact. (Allright, maybe not the Five-Seven is not compact, but it's still nice.)

Edit: Gah, 'fire it rounds?' I'm speaking Russian in English today it seems.
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Old 2010-02-15, 16:51   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
Weapons are merely tools and like any tool it depends on how the end user use it! Weapons also save lives. What is so good about them you ask? They give you the ability to look evil in the eye and tell it "This far and no farther"! Besides the only true evil is when we stand by and let it win. I really don't think you have seen the true evil man is capable of though.
well tools specifically made to take mans life in very afficent way and to breed wars yes.

so what so good about them? they are not tools as knife because knives have other good uses than killing people. so it's not the same.

look just like atomic bombs are made to completely destroy and crush your opponents spirit so are guns are made to slaughter other people and to put fear in them.

There is nothing glorious about it .

and don't be kidding here. Since beginning of time man made weapon not to save other mans life but to take it. you can't just say it was created solely to protect. Main reason it was created was to snuff the living in lights of people you want of your path of site.

as it gives you to look at the evil.haha that is just great. just hold a weapon and look yourself in the mirror. you will see more "evil" than you can handle
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Old 2010-02-15, 19:01   Link #92
JMvS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john_kun View Post
well tools specifically made to take mans life in very afficent way and to breed wars yes.

so what so good about them? they are not tools as knife because knives have other good uses than killing people. so it's not the same.

look just like atomic bombs are made to completely destroy and crush your opponents spirit so are guns are made to slaughter other people and to put fear in them.

There is nothing glorious about it .

and don't be kidding here. Since beginning of time man made weapon not to save other mans life but to take it. you can't just say it was created solely to protect. Main reason it was created was to snuff the living in lights of people you want of your path of site.

as it gives you to look at the evil.haha that is just great. just hold a weapon and look yourself in the mirror. you will see more "evil" than you can handle
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Don't kid yourself, here the problem is way simpler than the egg and the chick. As demonstrated by chimps, tools are not even required for wars and killings.
And even nowadays, basic tools such as picks, shovels, hammers and machetes are plenty enough when the targets don't abide the aforementioned word of wisdom.
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Old 2010-02-15, 19:05   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Don't kid yourself, here the problem is way simpler than the egg and the chick. As demonstrated by chimps, tools are not even required for wars and killings.
And even nowadays, basic tools such as picks, shovels, hammers and machetes are plenty enough when the targets don't abide the aforementioned word of wisdom.
yeah but guns are way more effective just like atomic bombs. that makes them way more lethal than anything you described here.

I mean it's not like you could simple wipe out or wait they did that with machetes in some African country.

still weapons are more effective. Way more. Destruction power imminent.

the problem is you can practically slaughter people in thousands with these
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Old 2010-02-15, 19:31   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowSeed View Post
FN Herstal's Five-Seven and P90. Need to say more?
Apparently i do.
The fire it rounds, 7.62 if i rememebr correctly, is amazing. Light-weight, pierces kevlar with relative ease and stops the target. What's bad is that FN stuff is hard to come by for an average Joe or Jill.
And their fire rate is good, accuracy near perfect, fairly reliable, lightweight and compact. (Allright, maybe not the Five-Seven is not compact, but it's still nice.)

Edit: Gah, 'fire it rounds?' I'm speaking Russian in English today it seems.
I know its nit picking but they actually both fire FN's own 5.7mm round hense the name "Five SeveN" =]

I've handled a 5-7 before and its nice but the magazines feel far to big to be practical.
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Old 2010-02-15, 19:48   Link #95
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Um if I wanted to wipeout a group of people why would I use a bunch of bullets when I could use something much more heinious or insidieous like a chemical or biological weapon that turns you inside out? Or since I have the POWER why don't I just round all the people up a d burn them like the Nazis did?
So John-kun how would you stop a monster like me? Remember I have all the guns,bombs,missles,ships,&planes and you have banished weapons because you don't like them! How do you STOP ME?!
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Old 2010-02-15, 19:50   Link #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
Um if I wanted to wipeout a group of people why would I use a bunch of bullets when I could use something much more heinious or insidieous like a chemical or biological weapon that turns you inside out? Or since I have the POWER why don't I just round all the people up a d burn them like the Nazis did?
So John-kun how would you stop a monster like me? Remember I have all the guns,bombs,missles,ships,&planes and you have banished weapons because you don't like them! How do you STOP ME?!
please do get to your point. I'm listening
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Old 2010-02-15, 20:17   Link #97
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please do get to your point. I'm listening
So I take it that you have conceded defeat?
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Old 2010-02-15, 20:18   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
because they're awesome.
Oh the quote underneath the Panzer's picture had me laughing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadassOfTheWeek
"A Panther tank looking for people who need their sh*t wrecked."
Brilliant

I havn't handled very many firearms, however of those that I did, the L86 LSW stood out for me. That thing is so much fun to put rounds down a range. Precision fire up to 600M? Yes please.
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Old 2010-02-15, 20:22   Link #99
john_kun
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So I take it that you have conceded defeat?
haha what defeat? you speak as if we where in a war ... flaming war or something. I really stopped doing battles long ago friend. this is just friendly discussion ?

I just wanted you to explain further your point since I had hard time understanding it. take no offense

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Old 2010-02-15, 21:42   Link #100
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I think his point was that you are against weapons because they kill people, but that since there are evil people who are willing to use such weapons, it's better to keep weapons to fight or prevent those kinds of people.
With nuclear bombs, for example, if you have a bomb and I have a bomb, if doesn't matter how evil one of us is; as long as we both care about our lives, neither of us will drop the nuke on each other.
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