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View Poll Results: Fate/kaleid liner PRISMA☆ILLYA - Episode 6 Rating
Perfect 10 44 72.13%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 8 13.11%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 3 4.92%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 6.56%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.64%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.64%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-08-30, 17:39   Link #121
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Painful. There are so many things wrong about the portrayal of this fight, it's not funny. This is just so inaccurate. Archer says in UBW that he wouldn't be able to trace excalibur 100%, so there's no way to straight up win a fight like that.

I dunno how other fate fans are enjoying this show at all. It's cringe worthy to me. I love Rin in fate/stay night, but she's portrayed really annoyingly here.
Who cares? This isn't F/SN. This isn't the same Archer. It's a good thing the mangaka didn't let himself be shackled by F/SN's rules. This allows for really cool fights like the one in this episode.

If that still bothers you, we have come up with possible explanations in this thread. Sounds to me like you're just looking for excuses not to like this show. Pray tell, what were the other "many things wrong" about this fight? Most Fate fans agree this is the first time Archer's fighting style has been faithfully animated and loved this episode as result.
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Old 2013-08-30, 17:53   Link #122
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
More of:
Prismaverse is Mahou Shoujoverse, so the powerlevel discussion basically boils down to "Whoever has the strongest love and friendship wins." Except for Bazett. She wrecks everyone.Then Gilgamesh wrecks her, cause his love is titanic and worldwide, like Ea.

Chaos: It's too alien, it's not a sword even though it's called one and probably because it's so old (in the beginning of time...)
He loves himself too much to lose...?

Also, I thought the mangaka was female for some reason.
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Old 2013-08-30, 18:07   Link #123
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Who cares? This isn't F/SN. This isn't the same Archer. It's a good thing the mangaka didn't let himself be shackled by F/SN's rules. This allows for really cool fights like the one in this episode.

If that still bothers you, we have come up with possible explanations in this thread. Sounds to me like you're just looking for excuses not to like this show. Pray tell, what were the other "many things wrong" about this fight? Most Fate fans agree this is the first time Archer's fighting style has been faithfully animated and loved this episode as result.
Faithfully adapted his fighting style? To a degree sure. But Archer was never able to engage in melee combat against Saber like this. But when your frame of reference are two really shitty DEEN anime, you're not really earning accolades from me.

There was nearly 0 thought given to the mechanics of the battle, something that other fate works give tons of. I don't appreciate this flashy nonsense that just reminds me of what was so wrong with the UBW movie. It doesn't help that I hate the character designs and general aesthetics and tone of the show a lot as well.

And sorry, if you're going to take type-moon universe concepts and characters, you should be faithful to them. Else use different characters, a different universe, and different fight mechanics. That's my opinion of course, but I think it's for the better.
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Old 2013-08-30, 18:11   Link #124
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Painful. There are so many things wrong about the portrayal of this fight, it's not funny. This is just so inaccurate. Archer says in UBW that he wouldn't be able to trace excalibur 100%, so there's no way to straight up win a fight like that.

I dunno how other fate fans are enjoying this show at all. It's cringe worthy to me. I love Rin in fate/stay night, but she's portrayed really annoyingly here.
It was never explicitly stated that Ilya perfectly traced Excalibur, but that's not the issue because Saber was nowhere near 100% either.
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Old 2013-08-30, 18:12   Link #125
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We never really get a chance to see whether or not Archer can fight on equal ground as Saber, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea he can't. They only engage in "combat" twice, one of which was just Archer being surprised by seeing her while trying to guard Rin and getting gouged, and the other where he no longer has a Master to provide mana, consisting of two clashes. The first, she's drained and he dominates her like a normal adult would dominate a child in combat. The second, she's recharged and he's still without a source of mana, and he's not trying to beat her but get around her, but cannot.

None of this tells me that, all things being equal, he'd be unable to fight her. And I don't see how you can say nearly no thought was given to the mechanics of the battle. What does that even mean? Sorry, but just because everything isn't laid bare 100% in dialogue doesn't mean there isn't logic behind why things happen. It is pretty damned faithful to the source.
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Old 2013-08-30, 20:48   Link #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
He loves himself too much to lose...?

Also, I thought the mangaka was female for some reason.
Yep. Don't forget his chain.

Saber Alter used Excalibur, the next shot wouldn't have enough firepower.

Probably something like: Excalibur at 100%, now at 80%.
Ilya has 90% excalibur, shot at 90% full power.
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Old 2013-08-30, 21:01   Link #127
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Yeah, I have to say coming back weeks later this fight was still awesome. Just a great showdown and enjoyable fight. A case where two fighters weren't in a condition to really comment or chat during their fight, just purely going at it. At most Miyu commentating here and there.

I'd agree that repetitive use of Excalibur would have to have some downside. Even if there was a gap between the attack launched at Rin/Luvia and the attack on Illya that kind of recharge can't happen instantly. While on the other hand Illya just poured everything into that attack leading to her collapsing almost instantly after.
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Old 2013-08-31, 06:21   Link #128
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Painful. There are so many things wrong about the portrayal of this fight, it's not funny. This is just so inaccurate. Archer says in UBW that he wouldn't be able to trace excalibur 100%, so there's no way to straight up win a fight like that.
Illya isn't Archer, enough said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Faithfully adapted his fighting style? To a degree sure. But Archer was never able to engage in melee combat against Saber like this. But when your frame of reference are two really shitty DEEN anime, you're not really earning accolades from me.
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Old 2013-08-31, 10:19   Link #129
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Remember that Shirou actually traces Excalibur (or a really, really good fascimile thereof) in HF Normal. Excalibur being a divine weapon that's untracable was a retcon established in Complete Material 3, which was released more than a year after the Prisma Illya manga finished.
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Old 2013-08-31, 15:39   Link #130
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In fairness to Reckoner, some people prefer action scenes where the combat is very rules-based and cerebral, where the cunning and tactics and wits of the combatants are just as important as (if not more important than) their emotions and will to win and explosive powers. Rules-based in the sense of either abides by real life laws of physics, or at least by the internal logic set by the fictional universe the action is in.

But then, some prefer action scenes with a lot of emotion infused in it, and lots of flashy explosions and dashing moves.

While I do like a little bit of smarts in my action heroes/heroines, I do admit I lean more to the latter, so that's probably partly why I liked this episode a lot more than Reckoner did. That, plus I've always been fond of the magical girl genre and this show embraces that genre wonderfully, imo.
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Old 2013-08-31, 16:19   Link #131
hinode
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In fairness to Reckoner, some people prefer action scenes where the combat is very rules-based and cerebral, where the cunning and tactics and wits of the combatants are just as important as (if not more important than) their emotions and will to win and explosive powers. Rules-based in the sense of either abides by real life laws of physics, or at least by the internal logic set by the fictional universe the action is in.

But then, some prefer action scenes with a lot of emotion infused in it, and lots of flashy explosions and dashing moves.

While I do like a little bit of smarts in my action heroes/heroines, I do admit I lean more to the latter, so that's probably partly why I liked this episode a lot more than Reckoner did. That, plus I've always been fond of the magical girl genre and this show embraces that genre wonderfully, imo.
This makes sense in general, but Type Moon is not really a good source of rules-based combat scenes. Nasu the storyteller has never really let his own complicated systems and abilities get in the way of a good dramatic action scene, even if it requires lengthy exposition to explain why the previous fight did not go according to the elaborate rules he had previously established. In one case this involves a dying character temporarily regaining his sanity just so he can explain to the audience what the heck just happened.

There's also one fight in the UBW route where an explicitly inferior fighter quite literally wins due to the strength of his beliefs, come to think of it.

Prisma Illya as a standalone work actually does a better job of sticking to the rules that it has previously established than FSN does, because it exposits less and less elaborately; therefore, there is no need for awkward exposition to explain away why explicitly numerated abilities did not work in practice like they were supposed to in theory.

(As an aside, Gen did a better job of keeping Fate/Zero internally consistent than Nasu did with FSN, at the mild cost of creating some inconsistencies between the two.)
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Old 2013-08-31, 18:03   Link #132
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Originally Posted by hinode View Post
Remember that Shirou actually traces Excalibur (or a really, really good fascimile thereof) in HF Normal. Excalibur being a divine weapon that's untracable was a retcon established in Complete Material 3, which was released more than a year after the Prisma Illya manga finished.
Being untraceable only means Archer can't recreate the genuine article perfectly. He explicitly states in UBW that he "can come close", and in many cases that's good enough.

See: Fate/Extra CCC


... and how many times has this issue been brought up (and answered)? Click back, read, and drop it.
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Old 2013-08-31, 18:19   Link #133
hinode
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From the recently released Fate/Extra material:

Quote:
UBW
(I hate memes so no translation for the first line)
Archer's noble phantasm. A barren wasteland lined with a thousand blades. A great ritual deployed using eight lines of of projection. A type of old world magecraft, called a reality marble, which manifests the internal world of the caster and writes it over the world for a small amount of time. All of the weapons Archer can project are there and in this space he doesnft have to project them from scratch, instead he can immediately pull out the weapons sticking out of the ground.
In EXTRA, the conditions for where wrought iron is possible are boosted so projection of holy-sword class weaponry is possible, though their performance is inferior.
Okay truth is, I was surprised to find that the staff in charge of the 3D had made animation for Excalibur being projected while I was looking the other way.
Well it is new animation after all and therefs no reason to reject it.
So long as it's a degraded version, I guess it's okay.
(boldface added by me)

The implication I get is that Nasu is saying even a degraded version of Excalibur can't be projected outside of Moon Cell. On the other hand, CCC's developers clearly hadn't read CM3 and seemed to think he could make the proper thing if only he had enough mana, just like most people coming out of FSN.
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Old 2013-08-31, 22:29   Link #134
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by hinode View Post
From the recently released Fate/Extra material:



(boldface added by me)

The implication I get is that Nasu is saying even a degraded version of Excalibur can't be projected outside of Moon Cell. On the other hand, CCC's developers clearly hadn't read CM3 and seemed to think he could make the proper thing if only he had enough mana, just like most people coming out of FSN.
The implication I got from that was that Nasu didn't intend Archer to project Excalibur because even if he could, it's too inefficient because of its mana cost.
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Old 2013-09-01, 08:16   Link #135
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^Or more logically from a meta perspective, if Archer were able to trace Excalibur, he'd be superior to Saber in almost every logical way.
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Old 2013-09-10, 09:15   Link #136
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Saber Alter is ranked D in Agility.
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Old 2013-09-11, 11:12   Link #137
Dengar
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Which is compensated by her rank A Instinct
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Old 2013-09-11, 12:50   Link #138
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Which is compensated by her rank A Instinct
Rank B. Rank A reduces effects on visual obstruction by half and B by a quarter.
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Old 2013-09-11, 15:54   Link #139
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The point is, it's compensated for
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