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Old 2013-08-26, 21:47   Link #81
GDB
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Wasn't a big point to the first movie about how the world wasn't ready for a superhero, and that's why Clark was wandering around instead of being Superman? Yet Batman's apparently been out there for a while, being a superhero. While we, the viewers, know he's just a guy, the general populace considers him to be mystical in some fashion. So... yay, plot hole already?
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Old 2013-08-26, 21:58   Link #82
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Wasn't a big point to the first movie about how the world wasn't ready for a superhero, and that's why Clark was wandering around instead of being Superman? Yet Batman's apparently been out there for a while, being a superhero. While we, the viewers, know he's just a guy, the general populace considers him to be mystical in some fashion. So... yay, plot hole already?
Umm, there's a big difference between Batman and Superman. A pretty obvious one at that.

Batman's a crime fighter who knows martial arts. The public knows he's just a person. It's just he seems to be mystical because of his theatrics. And he scares the heck out of p[eople with his ninja skills.

Superman.....................lifts large cranes and buses with his bare hands. And can fly. And can shoot "laser" beams.

The "world not being ready" is about the world not being ready for somebody who is essentially a god compared to humans. They'll all see him as a threat or a monster, simply out of fear since they don't understand him. And that's exactly what they showed in the Man of Steel.

Batman, on the other hand, is very easy to understand. He's a human being who puts on a mask and fights crime. The fear he puts in criminals is from his theatrics, but nobody is afraid that he'll try to take over the world and we won't be able to stop him.

This is all incredibly obvious, since they make it pretty clear exactly why Clark's and his father thourhg the world wasn't ready for Superman. And in a way they still aren't; the US government is already trying to spy on him even after he saved their world from imminent destruction.

Plus, they also make it clear in the Avengers, with all the public commentary at the end of the movie, and the council's douchebaggery throughout. People are scared of superheroes; they think that with all their powers, if they turn against the world they'll do some serious damage before anybody could stop them. And really, they're right. They just don't understand these superheroes and thus don't know that they would never do that.

One of the constant themes for superheroes for a long while has been "people fear what they don't understand." It was a stated theme back in the original X-Men cartoon years ago, and superhero creators have been holding to it ever since.
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Old 2013-08-26, 22:03   Link #83
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Wasn't a big point to the first movie about how the world wasn't ready for a superhero, and that's why Clark was wandering around instead of being Superman? Yet Batman's apparently been out there for a while, being a superhero. While we, the viewers, know he's just a guy, the general populace considers him to be mystical in some fashion. So... yay, plot hole already?
See, people are not ready for a public superhero. But if you cover your tracks and don't leave behind any evidence of your existence, then it doesn't matter if the public is ready for you or not.
The comic community wonder if that means we are getting the "BatGod" instead of "Batman". As in, the near omnipotent mortal man that show up surprisingly often in the comics.

One thing with the recent Batman trilogy, was that Batman was much, much weaker than he is traditionally portrayed. The need for realism meant sacrificing a lot of Batman's more outworldly skills. But if we think about it, the Comic Batman is someone who has a plan for defeating any member of Justice League, and in an alternate timeline was able to stalemate despite declaring war on the whole world's heroes and killed all the supervillains to boot.

Batman is a Supervillain in a Hero's persona. No one ever questions how Doctor Doom manage to threaten the Fantastic 4; so why should anyone doubt Batman's abilities?


This is the Justice League Batman. Not Nolan Batman. And JL Batman has always been overpowered.

Quote:
Batman, on the other hand, is very easy to understand. He's a human being who puts on a mask and fights crime. The fear he puts in criminals is from his theatrics, but nobody is afraid that he'll try to take over the world and we won't be able to stop him.
This is made ironic by the fact that Superman considers Batman capable of exactly that; taking over the world. Batman is under estimated by everyone except Superman.

A sign of us getting "Batgod", is if the JL Batman makes his own gadgets. The Super-genius aspect of Batman had been missing in the Nolan version.
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Old 2013-08-26, 22:10   Link #84
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
This is made ironic by the fact that Superman considers Batman capable of exactly that; taking over the world. Batman is under estimated by everyone except Superman.

A sign of us getting "Batgod", is if the JL Batman makes his own gadgets. The Super-genius aspect of Batman had been missing in the Nolan version.
Well I know all that from the comics, but as you said this is missing in the Nolan version, which is what we're going by here. Though I wouldn't be surprised if we get Paranoid Batman when he meets actual superheroes.

Though we did get a little bit of Batman's "world conquering potential" with that citywide sonar thing he made in the Dark Knight.
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Old 2013-08-26, 22:13   Link #85
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Well I know all that from the comics, but as you said this is missing in the Nolan version, which is what we're going by here.
I am 100% certain they are cutting all ties with the Nolan version Batman. It was good fun, but that Batman just doesn't belong in Justice League. I am certain we will get a far more independent and powerful Batman in MoS2. And as I say, if they went all the way and have him being a Super Genius again, we would have BatGod.
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Old 2013-08-26, 22:17   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I am 100% certain they are cutting all ties with the Nolan version Batman. It was good fun, but that Batman just doesn't belong in Justice League. I am certain we will get a far more independent and powerful Batman in MoS2. And as I say, if they went all the way and have him being a Super Genius again, we would have BatGod.
Good point.

But there's still no plot hole with why the public would be afraid of Superman and not Batman. Batman is still just a man to the public; his "world takeover potential" comes from secrecy and genius, not from having super strength and seeming like a god, like Superman. People see Superman, and they see either a messiah who can save the world, or someone who could easily become a demon and destroy the world.
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Old 2013-08-26, 22:20   Link #87
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Good point.

But there's still no plot hole with why the public would be afraid of Superman and not Batman. Batman is still just a man to the public; his "world takeover potential" comes from secrecy and genius, not from having super strength and seeming like a god, like Superman. People see Superman, and they see either a messiah who can save the world, or someone who could easily become a demon and destroy the world.
You are absolutely right of course. I wasn't disagreeing with that assessment.

It is just ironic that it is as you described; people would fear Superman more than Batman, when deep down we know the reverse should have been true.
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Old 2013-08-26, 22:23   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You are absolutely right of course. I wasn't disagreeing with that assessment.

It is just ironic that it is as you described; people would fear Superman more than Batman, when deep down we know the reverse should have been true.
Well I didn't mean to say you were agreeing on there being a plot hole, I just said that for clarity.

Too true. It's all about appearances.
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Old 2013-08-26, 22:46   Link #89
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Some scenes in the initial Man of Steel film gave me some major Brainiac vibes. So I always wondered if he'd be featured in a future superman movie. This gets me thinking...could this crossover potentially take a page out of the Justice League series by giving us a Luthor/Brainiac team-up wherein Brainiac turns Luthor into a being capable of standing toe-to-toe with Superman? Given Batman's knack for detective work and technology, I could see him playing an extremely important supportive role in defeating a combination like that.
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Old 2013-08-27, 00:28   Link #90
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I think the difference is people will hear rumors of an urban legend in Gotham, but nobody has ever seen Batman since he's ninja-like and only leaves trails of battered thugs on his wake.

With Superman, you can't really miss a guy flying above you and juggling aircraft carriers. He even does interviews.

Supes is a visual threat that the world can see while Bats is myth made up to scare off criminals.

What people don't know is he's the most dangerous man in the world and he's one of them. Human.
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Old 2013-08-27, 03:56   Link #91
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The Batman is also mostly only in Gotham. Outside that city he might only be a rumor.

Inside Gotham, he operates at night most of the time. Depending on which version of Batman's tale they try to tell, he's either a legand, a rumor, or a myth. It depends entirely on just what Batman they try to pull off since there are so many versions of the Batman depending on the writers over the last 70+ years. I doubt he'll be camp, and I doubt he'll have a Robin or other companions with him in the film. Most directors wouldn't want to introduce so many characters attacted to the Guest Star in another series. They'll have enough problems establishing Batman in the new Superman film and providing connections for Batman to have a story within Superman's movie, as well as providing a villain or three for them to fight. Because there are two ways to go about it. One would be to have major villains from both Superman and Batman in the film to make a good threat for both and provide a reason for the two to be in the same place. The other is to create an enemy that is enough of a threat to force a teamup of the Man of Steel and the Great Detective.
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Old 2013-08-27, 04:28   Link #92
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I think we should also remember that Superman considers Batman the most dangerous and capable human on the planet. If Superman fears anything and considers any member of the league his equal, it's him.
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Old 2013-08-27, 04:48   Link #93
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I think we should also remember that Superman considers Batman the most dangerous and capable human on the planet. If Superman fears anything and considers any member of the league his equal, it's him.
The weird thing is thanks to Nolan, we have a significant group of new movie goers who thinks Batman isn't a master scientist, engineer, and chemist.

I like to think back to the Burton Batman. The strange guy who sleeps upside down. The guy who have no explanations on how he came by all the equipment he has, because he isn't telling.

The Nolan Batman was grounded. But for Justice League, we need a mythological Batman.

We need Batman, and his "wonderful toys".

edit: I just have the mental image of Batman with a building-sized 3D-printer. And he just made spare costumes and even entire Batmobiles out of it.
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Old 2013-08-27, 08:53   Link #94
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edit: I just have the mental image of Batman with a building-sized 3D-printer. And he just made spare costumes and even entire Batmobiles out of it.
Have you been watching Futurama? .

I don't know if we really need a Batgod. Yes, it would be cool to see a regular human battle alongside a god like Superman, but it could also be interesting to just see a regular human who does very little when it comes to god-level fights. It all depends on what WB and Synder (and Nolan) want to do with the character. He could be a teacher for Superman, a mentor that helps to to put the man in Superman (or the hero in Superhero). Or he could simply be a master detective with superb, but human, fighting skills, unable to combat Luthor's legions of doom, but damn sure able to find the crumb trail leading to Luthor, and even beating up the bald bastard should the need arise.

Personally, I do not want Justice League Batamn, a hero who can even partially hurt figures like Darkseid. If the rest of the team is going to be extra super, then having a real human in the mix would be nice.
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Old 2013-08-27, 08:58   Link #95
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Oh, I am not expecting a Batgod to have superhuman strength or speed. I simply expect Batman to find a way to win, even if he has to do it in a roundabout way. A Batgod is not a Batman with superpowers; it is Batman with supernatural success rates.
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Old 2013-08-27, 09:03   Link #96
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I friggin love Breaking Bad, best TV show I've ever seen (new episode in an hour and a half, score), and Bryan Cranston as Luthor is so damn cool man. He doesn't fit my traditional image of Luthor, but I think he could really create his own awesome take on the character.
Thanks for the informative reply. I definitely think that Cranston can bring a certain ruggedness and threatening nature to the Lex Luthor character that we haven't seen a lot of lately, imo.



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] DC seems so much more adept at cartoons than movies. The Justice League cartoons as well as Batman and Superman Animated Series are honestly some of the greatest animation of all time. They did kind of just pull a bunch of characters out of nowhere for Justice League (Green Lantern, Hawkgirl, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter all had no prior appearance until the series), but it's a lot easier to build these characters up subsequently when you have an ongoing series. With a movie, throwing in new characters and then trying to explore them afterwards is a lot harder...
I agree with this.

And speaking of this, I think that the Timmverse Batman should be the template for the Batman in this movie.

Timmverse Batman is in there, he's mixing it up, he's on the field of battle, but he also carefully picks his spots and typically recognizes his physical limitations as a non-metahuman. He'll distract Kalibak until Superman can take him out, but Batman won't actually try to defeat Kalibak himself.

I do think that once you have Batman being a direct physical threat to the likes of Darkseid, you've kind of crossed the line. Someone who can trade blows with Superman and stand a chance of winning is not someone that Batman should be going one-on-one against. However, Batman can do very helpful things on the periphery and be the man with the plan.
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Old 2013-08-27, 09:09   Link #97
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About why people might not be afraid of Batman in this particular universe: He's still an urban legend?
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Old 2013-08-27, 09:41   Link #98
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The thing about Batman is exactly because he always finds a roundabout way of defeating essential demigods. He knows he can't beat villains in Superman's class straight up. He beats them in a different, and more human, way.

Which is precisely the reason why you need the world's greatest detective, a master tactician, a brilliant fighter and a genius intellect all rolled into one very human superhero who can fight overmen like Superman. This is precisely how he levels the playing field.
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Old 2013-08-27, 10:26   Link #99
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The Batman that I am use to is the one that almost always outthinks his enemies and thinks is way out of traps. While he is physical in how he does things, the way he survives and wins is by his intellect more than anything else.

Well, that and his toys. Being Bruce Wayne has its advantages in terms of just what Batman can bring with him, or just what contacts he might have, orgear he might possess in his cave. He might be able to outthink his opponents, but usually he needs a tool to accomplish his missions. From just something to help him get from building to building in the night, to picking locks, to spying on criminals, to identifying compounds left at the crime scene, Batman has a tool for it.

Its is knowledge of about everything that gives him the advantage. He can throw Superman over his shoulder, but only when Superman underestimates him and Batman can use leverage to his advantage. The superhuman and aliens tend to underestimate Batman because he is only human. Batman can use that to his advantage...until they stop underestimating him. Then he needs time until either a tool finishing the job, or backup arrives in the from of Superman.
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Old 2013-08-27, 18:56   Link #100
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We got a fan trailer.

It's not bad.
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