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Old 2013-08-30, 18:58   Link #61
ri0
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
If they DO fight, I see it more likely that it gets interrupted before we get any decisive evidence of either combatant's full power. Then after the arc is over, Burgess can report to Teach about how much Luffy has grown over the past two years, which will attract Blackbeard's attention to the Straw-Hats WITHOUT the need to destroy any of his crew or turf.
That's the way I see it too. Blackbeard is most certainly aware of the Mugiwaras arrival in the New World after the alliance with Law was proclaimed in the newspaper and is just waiting for them to go wild again.

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Originally Posted by grey_1960
Why not we have Admiral on the scene in mere couple of days after Straw-hat's arrival to the New World. Its luffy and Black Beard that have the connection not Burgess and Luffy. Black Beard is suppose to be the end game right? It was him who brought Ace to the Gallows not Burgess. Luffy is a captain and so is Black Beard. Burgess is subordinate, why does it have to be Luffy climbing the ladder to beat someone? Burgess 2 years ago did not seem all that powerful, so why now does he have to become some end boss for Luffy when he hasn't earned that status? Working for a Yonkou it does not make you invincible. I think a lot of people are looking at Luffy like he still has to grow(and yes he does). Why not look at it the other way and think of him has high level character already? We think Black Beard is powerful because he is Yonkou status. Who is powerful enough to defeat Luffy? So Far Luffy is taking names and kicking ass since the New World. I have yet to see anyone challenge Luffy (and Zoro) yet. Right now Luffy is undefeated in the New World. I think sending Black Beard a message by defeating one of his Subordiantes is just has affective if not more. I think the question should be is Burgess strong enough the face the Captain of the Straw Hat crew?
Luffy is definitely high level. Although he wasn't challenged too much in the NW, just to defeat those guys he took out, you have to be a force of some sort.
We can't forget the fact that this guy trained two years bearing the loss of Ace in mind. The first mate of the Roger Pirates deemed his training sufficient after 1,5 years and commented that he also got even stronger when he saw him in action.
Luffy still lacks actual battle experience, especially against Logia and tricky Paramecia, otherwise he has become a real powerhouse.
Hopefully we'll get to see how much he has grown against an opponent who really pushes him, though I doubt him engaging Burgess, as long as it isn't Burgess who wants to try Luffy. Oh, how sweet it would be, if Burgess teased Luffy with nasty comment about Ace and just gets One Hit KOed like Bellamy

@james: The afto comparison is a little bit off
But you're right, I shouldn't read too much into such minor details, but I really like the plain CoA imbued Gear moves. The addition of some fancy fire or lightning just seems a little bit too dull for Oda's ingeniousness.
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Old 2013-08-30, 19:20   Link #62
randomlex
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
You make it sound like the tournament is going to go perfectly smooth. As mentioned before, there's a good likelihood something will interrupt the competition.
We're already waiting for someone to replace the tournament floor (it'll probably be Toguro in a quick cameo )
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Old 2013-08-30, 23:30   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Chinjao was overhyped. Oda has a tendency of doing this to make victories seem more significant. But the fact of the matter is that Luffy wasn't pushed anywhere near his full capacity. In the end, Chinjao wasn't anything to write home about. Back in his prime, he seemed to be a force to be reckoned with, but it's clear he's lost a lot of strength since then.



Luffy hasn't faced any of the big names yet, which is why he appears to be very dominant for the time being. If anything, I anticipate this is the arc where he'll be challenged for real. It's questionable if Luffy can even beat Doflamingo by himself, seeing as how the sinister warlord is dominating Law with ease.



You make it sound like the tournament is going to go perfectly smooth. As mentioned before, there's a good likelihood something will interrupt the competition.
Did you even consider that Luffy might be stronger than we think he is after the time skip? Donchinjao was still a beast who can use 2 types of haki even if wasn't in his prime anymore. He easily defeated Ideo who was a known new world mix martiel art champion, Jean who was a known bounty hunter. If you mean Big names like the yonko themselves and admirals, then no. Because i'm pretty sure Chinjao was a big named pirate who I think is stronger than Burgess who was the real overhyped charater, who defeated a bunch of fodders in block A. I don't see the marines interrupting the tournament because Doflamongo is still a Shichibukai, so if Cavendish decides to jump luffy and Bartolomeo gets involved, i'm sure all hell will break loose. Burgess who loves to fight might get involved and Diamante might use the opportunity to make his move against Luffy, unless Sanji makes it in time to help, IMO.
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Old 2013-08-31, 00:26   Link #64
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by JonSnow View Post
Did you even consider that Luffy might be stronger than we think he is after the time skip? Donchinjao was still a beast who can use 2 types of haki even if wasn't in his prime anymore. He easily defeated Ideo who was a known new world mix martiel art champion, Jean who was a known bounty hunter. If you mean Big names like the yonko themselves and admirals, then no. Because i'm pretty sure Chinjao was a big named pirate who I think is stronger than Burgess who was the real overhyped charater, who defeated a bunch of fodders in block A.
Luffy is an unknown quantity at this point because we have yet to see his full potential. But anyone with a modicum of sense will know that he's not admiral/yonkou level at this point. Don Chinjao merely served as a roadblock for Luffy to overcome (which he did very convincingly and with little exertion). Ideo and Jean amounted to nothing in the grand scheme of things. Again, their reputation and infamy was used to hype them up, which in turn made Chinjao's victories over them seem like a bigger deal than what they really were. Burgess is a division commander for the Blackbeard pirates. That automatically implies he's a formidable adversary, and that hype already puts him above Don Chinjao easily. Regardless of whoever would win between Luffy and Burgess in a fight at this stage of the game, the victory wouldn't come easy.
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Old 2013-08-31, 02:38   Link #65
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Context, man. Remember that the main reason Fujitora is at Dressrosa was because of the news of Luffy's alliance with a (now former) warlord. Now, while it may be true that the purpose of said alliance is to topple an emperor, the marines have no evidence of that yet, nor has Law's plan progressed far enough to attract Kaidou's attention. Nor does it also prove that Luffy (by himself) is capable of thrashing an emperor and his/her strongest underlings at this point in time. Basically, I think you're being a bit premature in predicting that Burgess will meet his downfall this arc.
Not being premature
Fujitori has Laws words that he acted has an alliance with Luffy. Luffy signal handedly just took down his 3rd Shichibukai. Thats how the WG and Marines will see this whole situation. If Daflamingo falls to Luffy (or Zoro) then that will be the fourth one to fall to the Straw Hats and two in one day. Fujitori is going to try and bring the Straw hats in so they stop screwing with the Shichibukai title. Has for Kaidou the whole underworld just saw CC’s experiment at punk hazard and saw Luffy fighting with CC. I don’t think Kaidou is that stupid when it comes to his deals with Daflamingo. Has for Burgess it fits with the pattern Luffy has running so far. Kaidou(Punk Hazard), Big Mamma(Fisherman Island), and what next Black Beard (Dressrossa). Luffy is undefeated in the New World.

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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Blackbeard and his crew, yes. Remember, it wasn't just Teach himself, but his WHOLE crew who had tons of build up since as far back as the Drum storyline. Don't you think that taking out one of Blackbeard's men at this relatively early stage of Luffy and co.'s NW adventure would sort of ruin all of that mystique and build-up they had over all these years (ESPECIALLY now that Teach is a Yonkou)? I mean, it's sorta clear at this point that these guys are meant to be like the evil bizarro versions of the Straw-Hats, so it would be anti-climactic as hell for any one of them to be taken out before a proper, final showdown between both crews takes place closer to the series' end, don't you think?
It’s just one person
Right now with all the enemies (Yonkous, Marines, WG, Every other pirate). Having one Black Beard’s Crew go down would not be that anti-climatic and it would not be the end of Black Beard.

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See my above response to your previous paragraph, basically. I can only speak for myself here, but to me it would make much more thematic sense if the Straw-Hats faced Blackbeard's crew near the series' end, if not the final arc. And my point was that Burgess wouldn't be an end boss for Luffy, but for a different Straw-Hat. Like I said before, it's the captains who deserve dibs on each other, not a captain against the subordinate.
Casualties
The end battle does not mean the people you started with will be with you in the end. That goes for everybody in the one piece universe. I kinda expect when luffy finally reaches his goal i think one of the original Straw hat will be killed off.

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Another thing, Luffy doesn't really have a reason to take down Burgess, anyway. As you even said yourself, it was Teach who defeated Ace and had him sent to the slammer. Luffy knows this. He has no personal grudge against Burgess, so why bother picking a fight with him? Aside from his connection to Teach, Luffy has no other reason to give a rat's ass about Burgess. Now if he revealed that he's after the fire fruit, that might be a somewhat different story. But that still doesn't mean that Burgess has to be taken out this arc. Like I said before, a short scuffle would be just as effective a message for Teach then a fully blown-out deathmatch.....
Instigator or Fate
Luffy is not the one that looking for the fight. Burgess is the one who wants it. Also the nature of the tournament and were it is going almost guarantees the confrontation.

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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Luffy hasn't faced any of the big names yet, which is why he appears to be very dominant for the time being. If anything, I anticipate this is the arc where he'll be challenged for real. It's questionable if Luffy can even beat Doflamingo by himself, seeing as how the sinister warlord is dominating Law with ease.
Caution
I think Luffy (or Zoro) can take Daflamingo by themselves. Doflamingo even warned his subordinates at punk hazard to be careful of Luffy because he awakened his King Haki. That show he is not taking Luffy lightly. Also like I said with Marvel B undefeated.

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Originally Posted by ri0 View Post
Luffy is definitely high level. Although he wasn't challenged too much in the NW, just to defeat those guys he took out, you have to be a force of some sort.
We can't forget the fact that this guy trained two years bearing the loss of Ace in mind. The first mate of the Roger Pirates deemed his training sufficient after 1,5 years and commented that he also got even stronger when he saw him in action.
Luffy still lacks actual battle experience, especially against Logia and tricky Paramecia, otherwise he has become a real powerhouse.
Hopefully we'll get to see how much he has grown against an opponent who really pushes him, though I doubt him engaging Burgess, as long as it isn't Burgess who wants to try Luffy. Oh, how sweet it would be, if Burgess teased Luffy with nasty comment about Ace and just gets One Hit KOed like Bellamy
It's not Battle Experience
It is was the strength and haki.

Last edited by grey_1960; 2013-08-31 at 02:49.
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Old 2013-08-31, 15:17   Link #66
ri0
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It's not Battle Experience
It is was the strength and haki.
I think his Haki mastery should be quite good when Rayleigh can't teach him new stuff after 1,5 years although his estimation was, that Luffy would need at least two years to learn the basics. In the remaining half year Luffy refined his Haki even further.
His strength based attacks pounded the sh*t out of the guys in the New World until now, so that's why I've been saying that his greatest weak spot, like two years ago, is his attitude and experience in real fights.
He rushes into battles without thinking, which can be deadly against cunning opponents like the ones that are up ahead.
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Old 2013-08-31, 15:23   Link #67
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Caution
I think Luffy (or Zoro) can take Daflamingo by themselves. Doflamingo even warned his subordinates at punk hazard to be careful of Luffy because he awakened his King Haki. That show he is not taking Luffy lightly. Also like I said with Marvel B undefeated.
Actually, Luffy lost against Ceasar Clown, remember? Not that loss was attributed to him being reckless, but he still lost regardless. Now imagine if he tries to pull that stunt on Doflamingo who's far more superior to CC. Yeah, that will result in a quick defeat for our young protagonist. And then there's the question of how much stronger (if he even is) Luffy is than Law. Because if they're on the same level roughly, then Luffy isn't beating Doflamingo by himself.
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Old 2013-08-31, 15:46   Link #68
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Yeah, that's my point too.
Luffy's way of fighting is way too reckless against such opponents. I'm sure his Haki and strength are pretty good already, with Rayleigh telling him to head for the top, but he needs to be more clever at times like these.

About Law: I don't know if he could escape easily or fight back a little bit better if he wouldn't have a set goal in mind. His main objective is to stall time for the others so it's hard to say if he gives that fight his all.



Something that caught my attention when I reread a couple of chapters after the time skip: Luffy used a Haki imbued Jet Pistol to take down PX-5. I thought that combination ignites his fist and is called Hawk Shot or did I miss something?
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Old 2013-08-31, 15:49   Link #69
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Reason why that guy lost: He doesn't have his drill head that can split continents anymore. He just got it back.
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Old 2013-08-31, 16:11   Link #70
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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About Law: I don't know if he could escape easily or fight back a little bit better if he wouldn't have a set goal in mind. His main objective is to stall time for the others so it's hard to say if he gives that fight his all.
This point of yours has merit. It's not like Law is trying to outright beat Doflamingo. The goal is to stall for time. But by the same token, keep in mind that Law has possession over Ceasar's heart, which means that Doflamingo has to be very careful not to harm the heart which could potentially kill Ceasar. So in that sense, Dofla is also holding back.

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Reason why that guy lost: He doesn't have his drill head that can split continents anymore. He just got it back.
I doubt that would have helped him much. Chinjao still would have lost. He didn't come anywhere close to fully pushing Luffy.
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Old 2013-08-31, 18:14   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Actually, Luffy lost against Ceasar Clown, remember? Not that loss was attributed to him being reckless, but he still lost regardless. Now imagine if he tries to pull that stunt on Doflamingo who's far more superior to CC. Yeah, that will result in a quick defeat for our young protagonist. And then there's the question of how much stronger (if he even is) Luffy is than Law. Because if they're on the same level roughly, then Luffy isn't beating Doflamingo by himself.
The Obvious
I guess buggy the clown is the most powerful warlord. He could take on a yonkou. Rogers is laughing in his grave. Law is not on the same level has Luffy. Daflamingo is going to be the 4th shibukai to fall because of Luffy. I just hope Oda will pull Zoro out of the bench warming duty.
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Old 2013-08-31, 21:05   Link #72
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Luffy's level of haki and speed is going to be too much for Doflamingo, IMO. Now regarding the block winners, will they be fighting against the 4 Donquixote representatives or will it be a royal rumble and the winner takes on Diamante?
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Old 2013-09-01, 01:22   Link #73
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Not being premature
Fujitori has Laws words that he acted has an alliance with Luffy. Luffy signal handedly just took down his 3rd Shichibukai. Thats how the WG and Marines will see this whole situation.
Luffy didn't "take down" anybody, though. It was Law who came to him and made the alliance proposal, not the reverse. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the WG/marines can infer that much for themselves. Remember, they never really trusted ANY of the Shichibukai in the first place (how can they, when we even saw a few of them openly betray the marines right before the skip?). Their concern comes more from two notorious pirates from the "worst generation" joining forces, not just Luffy alone. You have to include the whole package here, not just its individual contents.



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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Has for Kaidou the whole underworld just saw CCís experiment at punk hazard and saw Luffy fighting with CC. I donít think Kaidou is that stupid when it comes to his deals with Daflamingo. Has for Burgess it fits with the pattern Luffy has running so far. Kaidou(Punk Hazard), Big Mamma(Fisherman Island), and what next Black Beard (Dressrossa). Luffy is undefeated in the New World.

I already alluded to this in my previous post, but the alliance hasn't really crippled Kaidou in the slightest so far. Sure, Law destroyed the SAD factory at Punk Hazard, but that doesn't mean jack as long as Caesar, the guy who created SAD, is still at large. It's really just Doflamingo who they pissed off so far, and notice that the guy already had appropriate countermeasures prepared (the fake news about giving up his title, the tournament, having Jora attack the Sunny, etc.). It wouldn't be until either the death/arrest of Caesar or the downfall of Dofla and his Smile factory that we can consider the true first blow to be struck against Kaidou.


And as far as your whole "undefeated Luffy" comments go..... well, BDK already took care of that one.


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Itís just one person
Right now with all the enemies (Yonkous, Marines, WG, Every other pirate). Having one Black Beardís Crew go down would not be that anti-climatic and it would not be the end of Black Beard.

Like I said above about the alliance, you have to observe the whole package here, not the individual contents. Blackbeard's crew as a whole has a great amount of importance as they're strongly implied to be a kind of evil mirror version of the Straw-Hat crew. In fact, they're all the more important now ESPECIALLY because the captain is now an emperor. It would hurt all of the build-up they're gotten over the years if one of them happens to be taken out now. Like I said, if Luffy DOES take on Burgess, it would make more sense if the two merely had a brief clash just to gauge each others' strength. Besides, I think it's pretty darn clear that Blackbeard's crew will have gotten stronger during the skip as well (and frankly, you've gotta be kidding yourself if you believe otherwise).....



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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Casualties
The end battle does not mean the people you started with will be with you in the end. That goes for everybody in the one piece universe. I kinda expect when luffy finally reaches his goal i think one of the original Straw hat will be killed off.
It always amuses me that so many people believe this. Right, Luffy's gonna lose his companions in a series where people are rarely killed outside of flashbacks.


But basically, reread what I said above about the importance of the "whole package".



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Instigator or Fate
Luffy is not the one that looking for the fight. Burgess is the one who wants it. Also the nature of the tournament and were it is going almost guarantees the confrontation.

Yes, but my point was that Luffy had no beef with Burgess to begin with. If they do fight, it's going to be for the sake of beating the tournament, nothing personal. Nothing suggests that they'll be having some epic deathmatch against each other.


Oh, and one more thing:


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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
The Obvious
I guess buggy the clown is the most powerful warlord. He could take on a yonkou.

Hmph, you may scoff now, but just you wait 'til the series' end when Buggy The Great becomes the one and only Pirate God!
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Old 2013-09-01, 09:22   Link #74
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Actually, Luffy lost against Ceasar Clown, remember? Not that loss was attributed to him being reckless, but he still lost regardless. Now imagine if he tries to pull that stunt on Doflamingo who's far more superior to CC. Yeah, that will result in a quick defeat for our young protagonist. And then there's the question of how much stronger (if he even is) Luffy is than Law. Because if they're on the same level roughly, then Luffy isn't beating Doflamingo by himself.
that's true, that is why I think that zoro will be the one taking down doflamingo.
reasons:
1) well, he's heading there, while luffy is nowhere near the guy
2) it doesn't look like law can win (could still pull another "just kidding, let me slash you and this whole island in half", yes, but seriously :P )
3) doflamingo is a swordsman (of sorts), usually being a swordsman and meeting zoro makes you a dead swordsman :P

also, zoro, while not being a strategist like sanji, is far less reckless than luffy. we can all agree that dofla is a tricky mofo, and since I don't want to start an argument about luffy vs zoro, I'll just say that his cautiousness makes him the better fighter against doflamingo.

But law is losing against doflamingo! Are you saying zoro is stronger than law?
Well, not. Maybe true, but not what I'm saying. First of all, Law was fighting against dofla and an admiral, we can't be surprised of his loss. Second, we probably can all agree on the fact that zoro is stronger than law as far as swordsmanship goes. Third, dofla knows very well law, and so probably has a very specific tactic against him (i.e. making him lose his stamina, just by guessing)
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Old 2013-09-01, 10:35   Link #75
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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The Obvious
Daflamingo is going to be the 4th shibukai to fall because of Luffy. I just hope Oda will pull Zoro out of the bench warming duty.
Doflamingo will most likely fall in this arc, and Luffy will certainly be a contributor to that of some sort. But the question is will Luffy outright beat Doflamingo by himself convincingly? That remains to be seen.

Zoro's opponent will probably be the guy sitting in the spade chair.

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that's true, that is why I think that zoro will be the one taking down doflamingo.
reasons:
1) well, he's heading there, while luffy is nowhere near the guy
2) it doesn't look like law can win (could still pull another "just kidding, let me slash you and this whole island in half", yes, but seriously :P )
3) doflamingo is a swordsman (of sorts), usually being a swordsman and meeting zoro makes you a dead swordsman :P
Doflamingo's not a swordsman. The only thing that he has remotely in common with swordsmen is that he can cut things. Other than that, he's got other abilities that set him apart. That being said, based on how the arc is progressing and the opponents that are still available, there doesn't seem to be much of a case for Zoro to go up against Doflamingo.
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Old 2013-09-01, 10:55   Link #76
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Doflamingo will most likely fall in this arc, and Luffy will certainly be a contributor to that of some sort. But the question is will Luffy outright beat Doflamingo by himself convincingly? That remains to be seen.

Zoro's opponent will probably be the guy sitting in the spade chair.



Doflamingo's not a swordsman. The only thing that he has remotely in common with swordsmen is that he can cut things. Other than that, he's got other abilities that set him apart. That being said, based on how the arc is progressing and the opponents that are still available, there doesn't seem to be much of a case for Zoro to go up against Doflamingo.
well, he is a swordsman in the sense that he uses cutting attacks. I don't think that we will see that puppetry thing again.
how can you say that zoro isn't likely to go up against doflamingo?
Law is most likely out, luffy is busy with the tournament and will have to defeat diamante (and even if something happens with the tournament, as is certainly possible, he is miles away from doflamingo and just a few meters upwards of the factory), sanji is raiding the factory. nobody else is even remotely capable of standing against doflamingo. plus, zoro is heading to the sunny which is heading towards dofla. now I'm not saying it's a sure thing, but it does seem plausible.
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Old 2013-09-01, 11:04   Link #77
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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well, he is a swordsman in the sense that he uses cutting attacks. I don't think that we will see that puppetry thing again.
how can you say that zoro isn't likely to go up against doflamingo?
Law is most likely out, luffy is busy with the tournament and will have to defeat diamante (and even if something happens with the tournament, as is certainly possible, he is miles away from doflamingo and just a few meters upwards of the factory), sanji is raiding the factory. nobody else is even remotely capable of standing against doflamingo. plus, zoro is heading to the sunny which is heading towards dofla. now I'm not saying it's a sure thing, but it does seem plausible.
Aokiji can use his ice saber for cutting attacks. Kizaru can use his light saber for cutting attacks. Would you classify them as swordsmen in that case? Because clearly they're not.

I very much believe we'll see his puppetry abilities again. They haven't even been explained yet, so expect to see more of them in the near future. Doflamingo's abilities have always been a big mystery; we need to get a solid understanding of how they work, which I'm sure Oda will delve into soon.

You're only looking at the scenario right now, which could easily change at any upcoming given moment.
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Old 2013-09-01, 11:13   Link #78
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The whole concept of "swordsman" in OP is vague at best. When Mihawk met Zoro in East Blue, he mentioned Zoro gaining enough fame to be called a "swordsman." If we go with that, being a swordsman in OP is just gaining fame and using a sword. The OP wiki even lists Roger as a swordsman, and no-one in their right mind would dare claim Mihawk, the World's Greatest Swordsman, is stronger than the Pirate King.

And am I the only one who thinks the whole Chinjao thing was a waste of time? When he was first introduced and mentioned having a grudge against Luffy's grandfather, and then reacting violently when he heard Rayleigh was still alive, I thought we were actually going to learn something significant about Garp. Instead, all we learned is Garp can hit really hard.
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Old 2013-09-01, 11:28   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Aokiji can use his ice saber for cutting attacks. Kizaru can use his light saber for cutting attacks. Would you classify them as swordsmen in that case? Because clearly they're not.
Of course they aren't. But every time they used their swords, they were fought back using swords (actually I'm talking about borsalino here, I can't remember Aokiji using ice sabers so couldn't really tell). We could also make a case of dofla's attacks being very difficult to dodge (since they are very wide attacks), and so luffy would be nearly defenseless against them. Now, should Zoro cut through the strings... That would be a totally different situation.

Yes, of course I'm not taking into account all the twists that will happen in the future, but how could I? It's not like I can foresee what's going to happen
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Old 2013-09-01, 11:32   Link #80
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spammowarrior View Post
Of course they aren't. But every time they used their swords, they were fought back using swords (actually I'm talking about borsalino here, I can't remember Aokiji using ice sabers so couldn't really tell). We could also make a case of dofla's attacks being very difficult to dodge (since they are very wide attacks), and so luffy would be nearly defenseless against them. Now, should Zoro cut through the strings... That would be a totally different situation.

Yes, of course I'm not taking into account all the twists that will happen in the future, but how could I? It's not like I can foresee what's going to happen
The point is, they're not swordsmen, just like Doflamingo isn't by the same logic.

Maybe Zoro will have a run-in with Doflamingo. But I don't see him defeating him. That defeat will be reserved for later on.
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