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Old 2013-08-29, 11:40   Link #41
itachi-san314
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In addition to naruto's easy road, I think another problem with the story is that there is too much going on at once. wars like this tend to get muddled and impressive characters like hashirama and madara get swept under the rug for months at a time, taking the momentum out of any suspense they had building at a given point. stories are much more compelling when there are fewer simultaneous story lines. 1 would be the most compelling, like the haku zabuza arc, but 2 is good as well to add urgency in the cutting like between the sasori and deidara fights. 3 can be done well but it takes timing skill, and any more than that is usually a disaster. so when there's more individual stories then are worth counting, the overall story loses its interest. people are wondering about sarutobi and orochimaru and kakashi, etc... but for the last several chapters they are essentially forgotten after semi-recently being relevant. i think the opposite happens of what the author intended with all these interconnecting stories. instead of building up to a suspenseful climax, the story has fallen flat under the weight of it all
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Old 2013-08-29, 12:36   Link #42
Uchiha Kesuke
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Originally Posted by Midnight Commander View Post
To appease his fans :/ This entire war has essentially been one huge naruto fanservice show; so I'm not too surprised at the bullshit in this chapter either. The author will probably have Sasuke somehow steal the other Kyuubi from Minato out of "jealousy", wanting to be like the great hero naruto(or something to that effect). I've been looking for a better story to read, but just can't seem to find anything that interests me yet. Reading Naruto's cheesy lines, brofisting, and the way everything constantly falls into place for him in such a contriving way is starting to become unbearably annoying.
I couldn't have said it any better! Try Attack on Titan
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Old 2013-08-29, 12:46   Link #43
Selvaria Bles
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So naruto's chakra is big as the first's XD

I miss tobi's mask it was so cool.

Anyways time to combine sage mode with kyuubi mode.

Also time combine both halfs together
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Old 2013-08-29, 13:25   Link #44
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Or maybe, just maybe, Shikamaru believed the logical thing to believe, and that Naruto wouldn't be able to suddenly get that much power back when he's been busy fighting the boss? No, it has to be to make Naruto look better and nothing else, right? No possible logical assumption, especially when this is the first time it's happened and we had to have the Second Hokage explain why it worked at all.
Uh, are you listening to yourself? Shikamaru thrown in there drawing a blank wasn't incidental, why do you think he was shown at all? Any one of the rookies could have been in that panel saying something to the effect of "we're screwed", but it seems quite obvious that the most intelligent person in the alliance was placed there at that very moment so that Naruto, and his plan can seem that much better.

And you know, I laugh at the comments from people who bring up the fact that this is a shounen manga to excuse all this bullshit, because when we all saw how powerful Hashirama really was, we had complaints from some of the same people about Hashirama's strength being "over the top" right when he was shown to be more powerful than Naruto. (oh, and now that Naruto will gain the other half of the kyuubi, power on that scale wont be considered "overpowered" any longer, it'll be just fine )

Kabuto learning sage mode was a problem as well, because apparently someone as intelligent as Kabuto managing to learn sage arts is far less believable than a dickhead like Naruto mastering it in only two weeks. Sasuke using amaterasu to barely subdue the 8-tails caused howling all over the Naruto forums because he was "overpowered", meanwhile Naruto taking on all the tailed beasts via Obito, and later on aquiring power from all tailed beasts is met with nothing but praise lol, Its hilarious.
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Old 2013-08-29, 13:36   Link #45
GDB
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Uh, are you listening to yourself? Shikamaru thrown in there drawing a blank wasn't incidental, why do you think he was shown at all? Any one of the rookies could have been in that panel saying something to the effect of "we're screwed", but it seems quite obvious that the most intelligent person in the alliance was placed there at that very moment so that Naruto, and his plan can seem that much better.
Because, unlike any of the rookies, Shikamaru is the one who's been organizing the army and calling the shots since his dad died? Anyone but Shikamaru would've been the equivalent to a peanut gallery comment. Him being shown wasn't to make Naruto's plan "better" or "smarter" or anything, but just to show that if Naruto hadn't gotten this ass-grab power-up right then and there, they would have definitively been screwed.
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Old 2013-08-29, 13:50   Link #46
Artful Dodger
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Because, unlike any of the rookies, Shikamaru is the one who's been organizing the army and calling the shots since his dad died? Anyone but Shikamaru would've been the equivalent to a peanut gallery comment. Him being shown wasn't to make Naruto's plan "better" or "smarter" or anything, but just to show that if Naruto hadn't gotten this ass-grab power-up right then and there, they would have definitively been screwed.
lol no... The alliance being screwed was quite obvious from Obito's words when he created the barrier, not to mention the barrier itself. I think its been quite glaringly obvious that without Naruto and the kages, the alliance would be dead from just about each and every one of Obitos major techniqiues. Kishimoto has more than gone out of his way to make these overwhelmingly crystal clear. Shikamaru being shown here wasn't necessary to make this point, but by all means whatever makes you sleep easier at night, have fun.
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Old 2013-08-29, 14:04   Link #47
GDB
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Shikamaru being shown here wasn't necessary to make this point, but by all means whatever makes you sleep easier at night, have fun.
You're the one throwing around insults, to both the story and posters, who don't agree with how you view the scene, and I'm the one who needs to rationalize to sleep better? Sounds more like you want to hate Naruto, given your little rant a post or two back, and can't stand that there's logical reasoning for why things happened the way they were written. But "whatever helps you sleep easier at night", I guess.
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Old 2013-08-29, 15:26   Link #48
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
You're the one throwing around insults, to both the story and posters, who don't agree with how you view the scene, and I'm the one who needs to rationalize to sleep better?
What insults?

Quote:
Sounds more like you want to hate Naruto, given your little rant a post or two back, and can't stand that there's logical reasoning for why things happened the way they were written.
If I "hated" Naruto like you claim, I seriously doubt I'd be this far along in the manga. As for the "rant", I was essentially pointing out the funny double standards I notice on the forums regarding power in this manga. I actually laugh at all that, in case the "lols" in the paragraph and me calling it "hilarious" didn't make it obvious enough.
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Old 2013-08-29, 20:36   Link #49
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whether kishi intended it or not, i think the shikamaru panel is indicative of intelligence no longer playing any sort of role in this fight
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Old 2013-08-29, 21:12   Link #50
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So, are we back to whose d**k is bigger ? Great... Not t say that the manga strayed too far from it.
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Old 2013-08-30, 08:25   Link #51
james0246
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Originally Posted by Midnight Commander View Post
Well I found the "defining moments" of the current generation of shinnobi to be quite lacking.
I'm not disagreeing; Kishimoto really dropped the ball on this entire war effort. There were few decent fights, and even the end fight, while somewhat awe-inspiring (if only due to the size and magnitude), is generally boring. By overemphasizing Naruto's participation is dozens of other battles (maybe not dozens, but still a lot), and neutering any real drama for the side characters when they do fight (I'm still unclear if any named character has dies), Kishimoto has turned this war into a children's story. He has still built it up to be the defining moment for his characters lives, but as a defining moment for his readers, it is not too interesting

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The problem is how the universe goes out of its way to make it easy. There is no struggle nor overwhelming odds, reality always becomes what is most convenient. If the journey isn't hard then prey tell why should I be interested with the destination? Existence constantly bending over at Naruto's whim makes everything worthless.
Exactly. There is no dramatic tension and Naruto breezes through the strong moral dilemmas he is faced with, without showing any sign that he even understands what he is trying to solve.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
whether kishi intended it or not, i think the shikamaru panel is indicative of intelligence no longer playing any sort of role in this fight
Save for the fact that Naruto/Kyuubi/Minato's plan was intelligent (not 200 IQ intelligent (but, then again, it's not like Shikimaru has ever lived up to that 200 IQ once in the entire series*), but still intelligent). In fact, everything they and the Kages have done in the fight is generally intelligent. It's not lack of intelligence that is the problem, its the ease of the solutions.

If every problem will be solved within a chapter, then Kishimoto should just quit with the problems, have Obito and Naruto hit each other until one runs out of steam, then the manga can end and Kishimoto can go do his baseball manga that he wants do (even though no one else wants him to).

I do agree, though, that power is the overwhelming quality emphasized in the fight (admittedly, it generally always has been, or at least since Gaara tried to go one-tail on a city). I would even go so far as to say its a 65/35 divide. The fight does not preclude the various characters intelligence, but it is obviously a side quality to the overall encounter - boosting/enhancing the encounter, but not controlling it.

Naruto and company had all the variables and the power to solve the dilemma at hand. Shikimaru had only a few of the variables and none of the power, so of course he couldn't find a solution to saving the alliance. The brief scene needs no further analysis beyond that. (If Kishimoto really wanted to ruin the character (and I expect he will do something similar before the end), he would have Shikimaru try and think of a solution only to determine that only Naruto can solve the problem. That would ruin the character, not this silly little extra scene (created to add dramatic tension) where he is saved despite not knowing how to save himself.)

Last edited by james0246; 2013-08-30 at 08:48.
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Old 2013-08-30, 10:25   Link #52
itachi-san314
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Save for the fact that Naruto/Kyuubi/Minato's plan was intelligent
I don't see it as such. naruto didn't even know what he did. when tobirama explained it after the fact, naruto still didn't get it. it was dumb luck and instinct. and as for minato, teleportation is his solution for everything so i dont see any intelligent problem solving there either. it's also dumb that shikamaru couldn't think of that plan. of course he was unaware of the second kyuubi's involvement, but he still could have reasoned that the only way to save everyone was for minato and/or tobirama (known for teleportation) to somehow teleport everyone out of there. minato was shown to teleport bijou-damas in the past. it wasn't something shikamaru should have drawn a complete blank on, despite it involving hope that they could muster the chakra to do it. but they are also edo-tenseis with infinite chakra right? so just clone minato 3 times and teleport all 4 himself. point being, shikamaru should have thought of a few things involving teleportation easily
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Old 2013-08-30, 13:13   Link #53
Hunter
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Naruto and company had all the variables and the power to solve the dilemma at hand. Shikimaru had only a few of the variables and none of the power, so of course he couldn't find a solution to saving the alliance. The brief scene needs no further analysis beyond that. (If Kishimoto really wanted to ruin the character (and I expect he will do something similar before the end), he would have Shikimaru try and think of a solution only to determine that only Naruto can solve the problem. That would ruin the character, not this silly little extra scene (created to add dramatic tension) where he is saved despite not knowing how to save himself.)
I disagree about this, with so many secondary characters it's ridiculously easy to come with an idea including them. This very plan could have worked with the help of the entire army if the author so wished.
The fodders in their thousands could have given their chakra to fuel the jutsu with Ino and her clan using their ability to link everybody into a single action along with Naruto acting as an universal chakra adapter. The Nara, Akimichi and Aburame clans could physically link everybody with their shadow, gigantism and bugs respectively. The Hyuga could be used in some chakra control capacity, etc.

Hell forget teleportation. Create an elevated sturdy platform with Doton/plastic/chakra/etc. not to stop the explosion but to use it for vertical liftoff since Obito's barrier has no top. Add Naruto and millions of clones thanks to the two Kyubis to initiate a countless Rasengan induced take-of, the shinobi army surfing on a nuclear blast would be considerably more entertaining than teleportation which is visually tedious at best.
If flying isn't your thing then go underground, with the clones used as super moles Rasengan-drilling escape tunnels.

The possibilities are endless, there are really no reasons for Shika to be unable to come up with something except for the fact that Naruto must be seen as humankind sole savior. And even if Naruto must be the one to save the day this particular solution is the simplest and most boring idea you can come with.
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Old 2013-08-30, 13:18   Link #54
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I don't see it as such. naruto didn't even know what he did. when tobirama explained it after the fact, naruto still didn't get it. it was dumb luck and instinct. and as for minato, teleportation is his solution for everything so i dont see any intelligent problem solving there either. it's also dumb that shikamaru couldn't think of that plan. of course he was unaware of the second kyuubi's involvement, but he still could have reasoned that the only way to save everyone was for minato and/or tobirama (known for teleportation) to somehow teleport everyone out of there. minato was shown to teleport bijou-damas in the past. it wasn't something shikamaru should have drawn a complete blank on, despite it involving hope that they could muster the chakra to do it. but they are also edo-tenseis with infinite chakra right? so just clone minato 3 times and teleport all 4 himself. point being, shikamaru should have thought of a few things involving teleportation easily
I disagree. Naruto couldn't explain the mechanics, but he knew what he was doing. When Tobirama explained the mechanics, Naruto was impressed with how much the 2nd knew about what Naruto had done. Not knowing how to convey something doesn't necessarily mean you don't know it.

It isn't so much that Shikamaru could not think of the plan, he just didn't know that Minato can teleport anything he or his chakra is in contact with. He also did not know that Naruto could reactivate the cloaks on everyone . Even if Shikamaru could come up with the plan that Naruto did, for all he knew, Naruto would've had to run up to and split chakra with them all over again, and there was simply no time for that.

For Shikamaru to come up with plans he has to have facts. Sure, there's variables and there's the element of the unknown that he has to account for, but the pieces he was missing were too big. You're looking at this through the eyes of the reader, not the character.
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Last edited by Jehuty; 2013-08-30 at 13:22. Reason: Changed a part that didn't make sense.
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Old 2013-08-30, 14:17   Link #55
james0246
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I disagree about this, with so many secondary characters it's ridiculously easy to come with an idea including them. This very plan could have worked with the help of the entire army if the author so wished.
The fodders in their thousands could have given their chakra to fuel the jutsu with Ino and her clan using their ability to link everybody into a single action along with Naruto acting as an universal chakra adapter. The Nara, Akimichi and Aburame clans could physically link everybody with their shadow, gigantism and bugs respectively. The Hyuga could be used in some chakra control capacity, etc.

Hell forget teleportation. Create an elevated sturdy platform with Doton/plastic/chakra/etc. not to stop the explosion but to use it for vertical liftoff since Obito's barrier has no top. Add Naruto and millions of clones thanks to the two Kyubis to initiate a countless Rasengan induced take-of, the shinobi army surfing on a nuclear blast would be considerably more entertaining than teleportation which is visually tedious at best.
If flying isn't your thing then go underground, with the clones used as super moles Rasengan-drilling escape tunnels.

The possibilities are endless, there are really no reasons for Shika to be unable to come up with something except for the fact that Naruto must be seen as humankind sole savior. And even if Naruto must be the one to save the day this particular solution is the simplest and most boring idea you can come with.
You're thinking too simplistically. Naruto could go all Spaceflight on Obito (or the alliance could kajigger any number of methods that will save them in the present situation), but that is a short term solution at best: their bugs will die, their shadows will weaken, their stomachs will consume too much of their fat stores, their minds will not be able to handle the stress, their chakra control will falter, etc. By utilizing this boring method of teleportation, Kishimoto effectively eliminates Obito's total threat (at least with using barriers and giant detonations) toward the army once and for all: Obito can no longer enclose them and threaten them since Naruto and Minato can easily, and seemingly endlessly, move them elsewhere. (Now they just need to be shunted to the side and left to watch in muted awe so Kishimoto can finally finish this fight).

As for the whole Shikimaru thing...sorry, I just don't see it (at least in regards to actually ending the threat). Shikimaru's debatable genius only occurs when he has a mountain of facts and data to work with. We've seen him fail before when he didn't have enough information, and this was simply a case in which he didn't have enough information to adequately create any long-term solution.

I will say that Shikimaru should have been able to come up with a short-term solution, and yes it could be said That Kishimoto failed the character by not letting him thinking of any short-term solution, but I do not think it was to elevate Naruto so much as to create tension for the situation.

(Honestly if you wish to discuss Shikimaru's low-point in intelligence with the added benefit of needing Naruto's help, look no further than the ridiculous cipher nonsense left behind by Jiraiya. There was an instance where Shikimaru completely failed for no discernible reason only for Naruto to appear and point out the most obvious answer possible. That was a bad day for the character...)

Last edited by james0246; 2013-08-30 at 15:35.
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Old 2013-08-30, 18:06   Link #56
GDB
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(I'm still unclear if any named character has dies)
Aside from Neji, you mean?
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Old 2013-08-30, 18:29   Link #57
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Aside from Neji, you mean?
Wow, I'd completely forgotten that character even existed. Just goes to show how meaningless I found him.
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Old 2013-08-30, 19:54   Link #58
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with the help of the entire army if the author so wished.
I remember when Pain destroyed konoha buildings and Naruto returned to fight him. And in the middle of the fight Shikaku tells to his son that there's nothing they can do, if Naruto is a "sage" they should just wait until the figthing ends. It was kinda stupid when i thought about it, suddenly the top jounin and who knows how many other guys who were in the village (even if most of them were on missions there should be at last a dozen jounin or ANBU or even just chuunins like Shikamaru who had already fought akatsuki members) and were saved by the slugs just all decide to not do anything. (Of course they also forget about Danzou not doing anything when he's somehow nominated to be hokage, but lets just forget that) Even if they realized how much stronger Pain and Naruto are they should have done something to help, at least organize some groups that could help Naruto.

At least in this situation the alliance wants to help, even if they come to the conclusion that they can't do anything. Also here things are happning at a faster pace, the alliance guys don't even have time to organize their thoughts between two huge attacks that they never saw before.
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Old 2013-08-30, 20:02   Link #59
itachi-san314
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Wow, I'd completely forgotten that character even existed.
don't feel bad, so did naruto. you know, the guy neji gave his life up to save...

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Old 2013-08-30, 20:09   Link #60
Eragon
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Man, Hyuga's have really gotten the short(or rather non-existent) end of the stick.
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