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View Poll Results: Code Geass: Akito the Exiled OVA - Episode 2 Rating
Perfect 10 13 25.49%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 11 21.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 21.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 19.61%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 5.88%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.96%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.96%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.96%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2014-01-24, 19:52   Link #381
Kusaja
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I think they're just continuing to follow the original show's silly trend of using modern or contemporary country limits as either national borders or at least regional subdivisions. Also, given that the one you're talking about was a rail map, it's more open to interpretation.

In any event, I doubt we'll ever see a Code Geass spin-off set in or around Sudan either so it's a very minor issue.
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Old 2014-01-24, 20:42   Link #382
azul120
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Originally Posted by Scherzo09 View Post
I also didn't mind how 'Julius' was handled because it's obvious from Suzaku's look of contempt that he's
Spoiler for Character's true identity from most recent episode:
That part was already kind of assumed. Still doesn't change how
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Old 2014-01-25, 00:06   Link #383
Drkz
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This could be part of the time skip between season one and season two. After all Suzaku is mentioned to be feared in the EU during R2.
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Old 2014-01-25, 00:08   Link #384
Scherzo09
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Originally Posted by Kusaja View Post
I think they're just continuing to follow the original show's silly trend of using modern or contemporary country limits as either national borders or at least regional subdivisions. Also, given that the one you're talking about was a rail map, it's more open to interpretation.
The map of Africa is pretty much verbatim taken from a contemporary map of IRL Africa. In the past it's also been noted that the country borders are post WWII when there's no reason that they should be; Pomerania and East Prussia should be part of a united Germany.

My issue is here they actually did a decent bit of research into European stuff, like using the French Revolutionary Calender (though they messed up there by having it start from the French Revolution as opposed to the founding of the French Republic) or having St. Petersburg as the capital of Russia. These things show that they put care into their alt verse setting. It just makes me wish they'd gone whole hog, creating a map of Africa pre-Britannian intervention based off of French and Dutch colonial possessions. Making up alt history maps isn't that hard, and I find them pretty entertaining.
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Old 2014-01-25, 12:13   Link #385
ImperialFlameGod8190
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I dunno, that would be a Deus ex Machina at that point.
CC in no way is specific about what memories Lelouch gets back.
She just tells him to "remember who is really is" and breaks the seal.
In my opinion he'd remember being Kingsley.

that may be true to remember who he really is but also remember C2 has no knowledge of what happened after the events on the island so she wouldn't know about it.
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Old 2014-01-25, 15:08   Link #386
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190 View Post
that may be true to remember who he really is but also remember C2 has no knowledge of what happened after the events on the island so she wouldn't know about it.
Which is exactly why Lelouch would logically remember being Kingsley.
CC has no reason to block that knowledge and so as far as she would know, Lelouch has only forgotten being Zero.
Unless CC possesses a Geass cancellation ability that wipes out ALL of what Charles did, but then he wouldn't remember being Rolo's "Big Brother" so that wouldn't work.
You see, it is a plot sinkhole in that the writers have just created a slowly sinking problem that they can't get themselves out of unless this is a total retcon set up to replace R2, and/or a major ass-pull.
Either way, fooling around with Lelouch's backstory during the interim between S1 and R2 is a big mistake IMHO and ruined what could have been a fresh start with new characters in the Euro-Zone.
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Old 2014-01-25, 15:27   Link #387
ImperialFlameGod8190
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Which is exactly why Lelouch would logically remember being Kingsley.
CC has no reason to block that knowledge and so as far as she would know, Lelouch has only forgotten being Zero.
Unless CC possesses a Geass cancellation ability that wipes out ALL of what Charles did, but then he wouldn't remember being Rolo's "Big Brother" so that wouldn't work.
You see, it is a plot sinkhole in that the writers have just created a slowly sinking problem that they can't get themselves out of unless this is a total retcon set up to replace R2, and/or a major ass-pull.
Either way, fooling around with Lelouch's backstory during the interim between S1 and R2 is a big mistake IMHO and ruined what could have been a fresh start with new characters in the Euro-Zone.
Here's my theory. C2 kissed lelouch so that her kiss would make him remember what happened in r1. During the whole break he rewrites lelouch's memories in r1 to make him kingsley. Then rewrites it again to make him the student with no memories of the gang. When C2 kisses him in r2 it only redoes the memories from r1. Its a massive mistake but lets see how bad
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Old 2014-01-25, 17:36   Link #388
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It all comes back to the same basic question: what exactly is the net effect of Lelouch remembering Julius Kinsgley or not?

In practice, it wouldn't change Lelouch's opinion of Suzaku, nor what he wants to do as Zero after recovering his memories.

It also wouldn't change Suzaku's opinion of Lelouch, nor what he wants to do as the Knight of Seven either.

All we have here is a retcon that creates a minor plot hole, but one which is harmless and would be very easy to cover up since it doesn't visibly alter the general direction of the Code Geass narrative. It's one thing to dislike the idea, because not everyone will be a fan of using Lelouch again in any capacity, but treating it as something that ruins everything else sounds like a great exaggeration.

I think the creators have found a fair point of equilibrium, between completely ignoring everything from the original series and completely relying on old material, where the benefits far outweigh the negatives. This adds a little bit of nostalgia appeal to the mix, while the majority of the production actually provides a fresh take on the subject matter. It's not possible to please everyone, but I think those with moderate opinions will get a lot more than those on either extreme end of the argument.

Last edited by Kusaja; 2014-01-25 at 17:57.
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Old 2014-01-25, 18:13   Link #389
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I think Lelouch would have an extra chip on his shoulder for being used like that, towards his father at the very least.
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Old 2014-01-25, 19:35   Link #390
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190 View Post
Here's my theory. C2 kissed lelouch so that her kiss would make him remember what happened in r1. During the whole break he rewrites lelouch's memories in r1 to make him kingsley. Then rewrites it again to make him the student with no memories of the gang. When C2 kisses him in r2 it only redoes the memories from r1. Its a massive mistake but lets see how bad
But then the power of Geass gets stretched to the point that suspension of disbelief is broken. Any semblance of any Consistency get thrown out the window and the power of Geass turns into a magic wand.
It also means that all of Lelouch's enemies are attending The Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy because he somehow can survive being both Kingsley and Rolo's Big Brother and then goes back to being Zero/Lelouch without any diverse effect from being Kingsley or his enemies benefiting from their experience while he is under Charles' spell.

In other words, Lelouch's plot armor is waaaay too thick with the additional of him being Kingsley.

The introduction of Lelouch into Akito screams of a possible Plot Tumor infecting the series since this side story is part of the official timeline.

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I think Lelouch would have an extra chip on his shoulder for being used like that, towards his father at the very least.
Yeah I'd say.
More like a mental breakdown before the events of R2, especially if Lelouch-Kingsley is instrumental in defeating the EU and helping Charles conquer that part of the world.

You would think that logically Lelouch would reach a 2 + Torture = 5 moment after being Kingsley and Rolo's big brother because of Charles.
Put another way, his mind would snap.
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Old 2014-01-25, 20:08   Link #391
Kusaja
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I think Lelouch would have an extra chip on his shoulder for being used like that, towards his father at the very least.
Sure, but he already has a whole bag of chips on his shoulders against Charles for far, far more important reasons.

Do you think the Julius Kingsley affair could have more emotional impact than what happened to Marianne or to Nunnally?

Let's not forget we're talking about Lelouch here. His priorities should be crystal clear. The whole idea posed by GundamFan0083's speculation, that Lelouch would suddenly suffer a "mental breakdown" just from learning about the Julius Kinsgley issue, sounds like absolute hyperbole and not something that is reflected in the character's canonical behavior.

We know Lelouch has no personal investment in the fate of Japan. Why should he feel bad over the fate of the EU? Not to mention the fact its final collapse isn't going to happen during Akito. They'll probably just lose a lot of territory. But you're telling me Lelouch's mind can't handle this? Seriously?

Lelouch does dislike being used like a pawn or as bait, which is what happened to him during his brainwashing at Ashford Academy, but all this extra content in Akito does is giving him one more reason to be angry. Which changes absolutely nothing. To me, this all reads like trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Going by that logic, Lelouch should have broken down in tears over the failure of the Black Rebellion.

Other than that, right now it's pointless to argue about whether or not the existence of Julius Kingsley counts as giving Lelouch any "plot armor" since: a) he's always had a ton of it. b) we haven't even seen him in any particularly dangerous situation yet. For all we know, Julius Kingsley could easily command the campaign from a headquarters where he makes hand gestures and laughs like a villain, without facing anything that would cause him physical injury. Or maybe not, but we don't know yet. Not to mention Julius Kinsgley traveled to Europe in secret and using a disguise. Who is going to connect him with the supposedly dead Zero?

Likewise, it's far too premature to argue about what this does or doesn't mean in terms of Geass powers and their (always very scarce) consistency. You want to see something that makes Geass abilities a lot more complicated and messed up? Try making sense of, for instance, the Renya of the Darkness manga.

But for the record, I don't think ImperialFlameGod8190's theory breaks suspension of disbelief, at least not more than anything in the show already did.

Last edited by Kusaja; 2014-01-25 at 20:35.
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Old 2014-01-25, 21:33   Link #392
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His plot armor is nothing compared to that of, say, Villetta. Otherwise he'd still be alive at the end.

And to say he didn't necessarily go over the edge isn't entirely accurate, nor is it really relevant that being used that much more wouldn't have cracked him even more. Let's not forget Lelouch basically lost it to the point he organized a suicidal cosmic temper tantrum in all but name after the events of Turn 19. (Not to mention it makes the Black Knights even more oblivious and unappreciative. "He used us as pawns!")
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Old 2014-01-25, 21:38   Link #393
Kusaja
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His plot armor is nothing compared to that of, say, Villetta. Otherwise he'd still be alive at the end.

And to say he didn't necessarily go over the edge isn't entirely accurate, nor is it really relevant that being used that much more wouldn't have cracked him even more. Let's not forget Lelouch basically lost it to the point he organized a suicidal cosmic temper tantrum in all but name after the events of Turn 19. (Not to mention it makes the Black Knights even more oblivious and unappreciative. "He used us as pawns!")
I agree with that first statement. But I think you of all people know that Lelouch only truly went over the edge over Nunnally's return and then with her subsequent death/disappearance, not over other sorts of defeats or setbacks which didn't involve people he cared for. The events of Turn 19 had more to do with him not giving a damn about anything after Nunnally disappeared. If Lelouch knew she was still alive, he'd have probably done something to get out of that situation rather than just accepting death. He was a total wreck and only slightly pulled himself together when Kallen came to pick him up. I don't see him going through a similar set of motions with the events of Akito the Exiled.
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Old 2014-01-25, 22:08   Link #394
GundamFan0083
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His plot armor is nothing compared to that of, say, Villetta. Otherwise he'd still be alive at the end.

And to say he didn't necessarily go over the edge isn't entirely accurate, nor is it really relevant that being used that much more wouldn't have cracked him even more. Let's not forget Lelouch basically lost it to the point he organized a suicidal cosmic temper tantrum in all but name after the events of Turn 19. (Not to mention it makes the Black Knights even more oblivious and unappreciative. "He used us as pawns!")
Exactly.
Outside of the blinders some of the fanboys have on over the clear plot hole forming around Kingsley, the simple fact here is that Lelouch is approaching a point of total mental collapse after he kills Euphie in S1, to add additional trauma to an already mentally unstable character is going over a bridge too far.
He hates being the pawn of his father in any measure in S1.
To think that becoming an instrument of Charles' conquest of the world would have little or no effect on the character's psyche is ridiculous.
No human has that much mental endurance unless we are to assume that Lelouch is in fact clinically psychopathic and thus has no true feelings, but the original anime would contradict this.

The events of S1 (and Lelouch's history) are enough to win him the title of a main character with a Dark & Troubled Past, putting him through more trauma isn't necessary and is rather silly at this point.
If Lelouch-Kingsley does in fact prove to be instrumental to the defeat of the Euro-Zone, then CC giving him back his memories would have drove him over the edge much sooner than the death of Shirley, revelations in C's world, and the mind-screw of Nunnally being dead then alive in R2.
There's a point where it just becomes too much and thus weakens the fabric of the story's cohesiveness.

And as an aside: Villetta and Ougi have Plot Force Fields that regenerate to the umpteenth power...but that is another discussion entirely.
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Old 2014-01-25, 22:14   Link #395
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So does that conclude Lelouch is not Kingsley?

And frankly, if Lelouch regains this memory after Charles's last attempt, it would be very nice. Either way, he is going to conquer the world, right?

Say, have you guy see any possible outcome for the W-01 project? Could it cheap and simple enough for production? Could it stands ground with the Vincent?
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Old 2014-01-25, 22:43   Link #396
azul120
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Originally Posted by Kusaja View Post
I agree with that first statement. But I think you of all people know that Lelouch only truly went over the edge over Nunnally's return and then with her subsequent death/disappearance, not over other sorts of defeats or setbacks which didn't involve people he cared for. The events of Turn 19 had more to do with him not giving a damn about anything after Nunnally disappeared. If Lelouch knew she was still alive, he'd have probably done something to get out of that situation rather than just accepting death. He was a total wreck and only slightly pulled himself together when Kallen came to pick him up. I don't see him going through a similar set of motions with the events of Akito the Exiled.
He had one last ounce of resolve when Kallen came in. When he was first set up by the BKs, he was thinking of a way out. It was when he noticed Schneizel was behind it all that he basically declared "Game over man! Game over!"

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Exactly.
Outside of the blinders some of the fanboys have on over the clear plot hole forming around Kingsley, the simple fact here is that Lelouch is approaching a point of total mental collapse after he kills Euphie in S1, to add additional trauma to an already mentally unstable character is going over a bridge too far.
He hates being the pawn of his father in any measure in S1.
To think that becoming an instrument of Charles' conquest of the world would have little or no effect on the character's psyche is ridiculous.
No human has that much mental endurance unless we are to assume that Lelouch is in fact clinically psychopathic and thus has no true feelings, but the original anime would contradict this.

The events of S1 (and Lelouch's history) are enough to win him the title of a main character with a Dark & Troubled Past, putting him through more trauma isn't necessary and is rather silly at this point.
If Lelouch-Kingsley does in fact prove to be instrumental to the defeat of the Euro-Zone, then CC giving him back his memories would have drove him over the edge much sooner than the death of Shirley, revelations in C's world, and the mind-screw of Nunnally being dead then alive in R2.
There's a point where it just becomes too much and thus weakens the fabric of the story's cohesiveness.
Exactly. His life beginning with the assassination was already one huge Deus Angst Machina.

I think Darkness Induced Audience Apathy is also applicable here.

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And as an aside: Villetta and Ougi have Plot Force Fields that regenerate to the umpteenth power...but that is another discussion entirely.
Plot Absolute Defense Systems (only automated), perhaps?
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Old 2014-01-25, 23:05   Link #397
Kusaja
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You don't need to be a "fanboy" to disagree with a radical interpretation of how Lelouch would supposedly react to the events of Akito. But of course, I imagine it's always much easier to just call someone a "fanboy" than doing anything else. Perhaps it's worth returning the compliment, in turn, but I prefer to attack the argument rather than the individual.

There's truly a lot of angst in Lelouch's life but not all angst is created equal. Lelouch only becomes mentally unstable when it comes to matters dealing with people he greatly cares about. But even Euphemia's death, which visibly depressed him and had other long term effects, was something he handled surprisingly well. After crying a little bit in C.C.'s arms, he in fact was quite able to exploit her death and successfully command the attack on Britannia, all of which was part of his plans...that is, until news of Nunnally's kidnapping came about. That was the real trigger of his instability during the cliffhanger end of S1.

Moreover, context is always important. We've already seen Lelouch's reaction to being used like a pawn by Charles. This happened right at the beginning of R2, when C.C. gave him his memories back. His reaction was one of resentment and anger towards Suzaku and Charles, but this didn't lead him to mental instability. In fact, he simply used this as a motivation to rise up again and proclaim the return of Zero. With the retcon of the entire Julius Kingsley affair, all you're changing is what Lelouch would say during the first two episodes of R2.

Honestly, do you guys really think it would go like this?

"Suzaku dragged me before the Britannian Emperor (old flashback) ...and then, he used me as a puppet (new JK flashback). OH NO, MY MIND IS BREAKING!"

I mean, where was Lelouch's "mental collapse" during the premiere of R2? He had already recovered and went back to his usual self, not his Stage 25 self.

Evidently, Leouch does have a dark and troubled past. But he doesn't always react to setbacks or defeats in the same way, so it's preposterous to assume that the whole Julius Kingsley affair would automatically traumatize him. Realizing that Rolo was his fake brother didn't suddenly cause him to cry or whine like a baby. In fact, he was already thinking of how to get rid of him and rescue Nunnally. In short, Lelouch's not as weak as GundamFan0083 suggests. Putting the Kingsley affair on the same level of the death of Shirley, C.C.'s revelations or the presumed death of Nunnally is a proposition that falls under its own weight upon closer inspection.

The only "cohesiveness" it would threaten is in the eye of the beholder, particularly for those who despise the idea of Julius Kingsley, not in the mind of Lelouch.

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Say, have you guy see any possible outcome for the W-01 project? Could it cheap and simple enough for production? Could it stands ground with the Vincent?
Based on these two episodes, the impression I'm getting is that Alexanders are roughly on par with Gloucester KMFs, although maybe a little more fragile. Outside of the transformations, it seems most other combat performance is relatively equal. It's really Akito's "DIE!" status that gives the pilots a temporary edge over their opponents in practice.

Not sure about how they'd rank against Vincent units, but I'd imagine the Lancelot should be more than a match for any of them, and with the "LIVE!" Geass you'd think Suzaku should equal or surpass whatever special Geass ability Akito is using.

That said, going by existing information and the way the setting's been developed, I believe the EU isn't exactly going to adopt the Alexander for mass production. Not only do they seem to work better as special operations machines rather than as front line units, there are also likely some political considerations involved.

Last edited by Kusaja; 2014-01-25 at 23:32.
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Old 2014-01-25, 23:51   Link #398
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That he didn't go insane is beside the point, as much of a miracle as it was. What I was trying to say was that it was already bad enough for him to want out in the end without this additional development. Worse still, the creators seem to like the implication that ZR was atonement, despite evidence to the contrary, and now even more proof that Lelouch was no stranger to being used himself.
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Old 2014-01-25, 23:52   Link #399
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Say, I've been thinking: What if someone was casted on both two command "DIE" and "ALIVE", what would happen?
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Old 2014-01-26, 00:00   Link #400
GundamFan0083
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Exactly. His life beginning with the assassination was already one huge Deus Angst Machina.
Yep, Lelouch adheres to that trope almost perfectly.

Lelouch already had the Deus Angst Machina from S1, it was amplified in R2, so at this point its a dead horse, beaten profusely, and essentially mush.
Dowsing it with gasoline and setting it on fire via this Kingsley incarnation is just incinerating any level of believability with regard to the plot or storyline.

Quote:
I think Darkness Induced Audience Apathy is also applicable here.
Yes sir, it certainly is.
I would contend that the writers have gone overboard with the concept that True Art is Angsty and run the risk of doing damage to the overall storyline of the Geass world.
It's bad enough that in S1 Lelouch was Promoted to Parent status, he also had an Evil Matriarch for a mother, and spends both S1 and R2 Calling the Old Man Out.

Now we're expected to believe that Charles brainwashing him into this Kingsley persona isn't going to change the continuity of the main timeline? I think not.


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Plot Absolute Defense Systems (only automated), perhaps?
Indeed!
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