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Old 2013-09-18, 18:01   Link #21
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I view this as a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario. You're implying that the overall fanbase is becoming more accepting of spoilers (or just views more than the anime itself), but I'd offer an alternative suggestion: people have been burned by spoilers before, and then don't participate in discussions.
To a point it is a chicken and egg scenario. Like any social group, behavior is affected by enforcement (or lack of) the generally accepted rule structure.

But it's not quite the same as chicken and egg. The difference is that you're justifying not participating at all because you have been spoiled in the past. The other side of that point is mine, which is that no policy will ever prevent all spoilers from existing in areas designated as "spoiler free". People have to break a rule before we can punish them, which means damage is done even if it's minimal.

So posting or reading in a discussion area where spoilers might occur is something you have to accept as a potential risk in participation.

Also, bear in mind that you can exclude anime and novel readers from this problem and still have spoilers. For example, last season we had low quality streams from Nico premiere days before the high quality streams from Crunchyroll and television airings. This friction was somewhat resolved by splitting the discussion threads, but it wasn't an ideal solution and spoilers still occurred. There's also the issue of raw watchers and the delay in translations. Previews, images, and web information are also sources of friction among the "I don't want to be spoiled" group.

I hope by now people realize how complex it is to moderate spoilers and why they still occur. Not only is it impossible to control behavior, but spoilers can come from almost anywhere.

That's why this comment:

Quote:
At that point we would need to admit that while spoilers are requested to be placed in spoiler tags, people are reading at their own risk.
....should be considered advice and warning everywhere on the internet.

This isn't an admission of moderators "losing the war" against spoilers, but a statement that people should manage their expectations. Spoilers suck, but they're a risk no matter how prepared you try to be. This folds back into my earlier point about understanding the community. It has changed, like it or not, and there's only so much segregation and rule making you can do before accepting there are limits on both preventing spoilers and discussing them in the face of the multiple groups with varying interests.

We do our best, but nothing's perfect.
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Old 2013-09-18, 18:08   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I view this as a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario. You're implying that the overall fanbase is becoming more accepting of spoilers (or just views more than the anime itself), but I'd offer an alternative suggestion: people have been burned by spoilers before, and then don't participate in discussions. That's a large part of the reason why I tend to keep away from discussions about series where a spoiler could kill the enjoyment, particularly if fans who have viewed the source material (if it exists) have made themselves known to the discussion.
Yea I know quite a few people who feel certain series threads are landmines and refuse to even look at them. I don't mind being spoiled myself, but this is something that I decide or not.
Quote:
It's an important distinction to make. If the discussion participants are changing because people are afraid of spoilers, then moderation plays an important role (and if the staff are getting exhausted, having series-specific moderators might be worthwhile). However, if we accept that it's an impossible rule to enforce, or if we believe that the fan base really has changed, then perhaps it's not worth moderating so heavily. At that point we would need to admit that while spoilers are requested to be placed in spoiler tags, people are reading at their own risk.
I always felt that much to be the case, that you shouldn't read spoiler tags if you don't want to be spoiled. There's only so much you can do to protect people.

I will admit that I find bringing up the source to be useful at time for comparison of corresponding materials, but it's also particularly annoying. To me, it's no different from watching a movie that's an adaptation of a novel and then the conversation was just about the novel. There's only so much relevance it can bring to what was displayed for 22 min at hand. And personally, even when I was familiar with the source, it's not a good idea to hype it up too much either. For example, when we were dealing with Haruhi it seemed like everything about it was gonna come together and make sense because the movie was going to be the best thing since sex. Was it? Well, it was good anyways, but honestly, just discuss it when we get there. >.>
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Old 2013-09-18, 19:39   Link #23
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At least relentlessflame agrees with me that those who "hate spoilers with a passion" are an irritating bunch. Because of their eagerness to avoid those spoilers, they have transformed a lot of big subforums to a card catalog where you have to check first if your post would fall under a particular category (you can't even speculate on episode threads, for crying out loud!) and hope that you didn't spoil anyone with your post.

This is probably why my activity in the Toaru Kagaku no Railgun subforum has dwindled a lot; I feel claustrophobic in seeing mountains of threads which should have been half its number today.

Hell, one particular site seems a better place for discussion sometimes.
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Old 2013-09-18, 20:28   Link #24
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It depends on what one is spoilering. If it's just any spoiler that doesn't make sense without context, I don't care. If it is important, then well, I'll hate you with a passion.

And I didn't realize wanting to be shown consideration was that annoying.

And really, what gives you the right to spoil people? They didn't ask for it, and you can't assume they asked for it. What about all those lurkers that would rather read too? Don't you understand it can ruin people's viewings? What do you lose by not spoiling besides certain discussion material? That can wait til it gets animated. People getting spoiled can't be undone.

There's a reason why I voluntarily spoil myself on various series and don't mind asking what happens at the end but still I'll use double/triple spoiler tags, just as you know, in case.
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Old 2013-09-18, 20:55   Link #25
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I'll be completely honest here.

I've personally never had a problem with spoilers listed within reasonably well-marked spoiler spaces. I honestly don't care if you have some posts on an anime episode thread where source material fans are basically talking amongst themselves through such spoiler spaces, so I have less issue with spoilers than AS' own spoiler policy does. I accept that source material fans are the majority for most of the bigger anime properties (i.e. those that usually end up getting subforums) so I'd rather not disrupt their conversations amongst themselves.

Also, I honestly appreciate someone writing something like "If you new viewers would like to know more about the characters and/or setting for this show, based on the source material, just PM me about it". With regards to Raildex, Ilidsor has been tremendously helpful to me here, and I thank him for it.

But what bothers me is this - An anime-only viewer is making assessments on characters and/or plot points based strictly on the anime (obviously). A source material fan disagrees with his/her opinion, and brings up points from the source material in debating against that anime-only viewer. It shouldn't be hard to see where this comes across as unfair to the anime-only viewer. It's not letting that anime-only viewer develop his or her own opinions organically through their own experience with the narrative.

Now, I recognize that in extreme circumstances this can be tough for source material fans. For example, there was a prominent character in Accel World that source material fans would have key knowledge about that anime-only fans didn't, and that key knowledge can make the difference between hating the character and liking the character. For source material fans that like that character, I can definitely empathize with why its very hard to hold back the spoilers. I would keep that in mind if someone spoiled me on that against my will.

But lately, I've seen some source material fans bring up info from the source material over circumstances much less severe than this. And many of the points brought up aren't even necessarily definitive to the point of changing minds, anyway.

I just think that source material fans should have a little bit of respect for anime-only viewers experiencing the narrative their own way at their own pace. It's perfectly fine to encourage them to "join the cult", to quote relentlessflame, but don't force all sorts of source material details down their throats over a minor disagreement or two.
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Old 2013-09-18, 20:58   Link #26
Marcus H.
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I don't spoil that much... hell, I don't post anything lately.
It's probably my constant exposure to spoilers as a wiki person that makes me virtually immune to spoilers. Even if I did get majorly spoiled, I often end up forgetting about it.

Quote:
But what bothers me is this - An anime-only viewer is making assessments on characters and/or plot points based strictly on the anime (obviously). A source material fan disagrees with his/her opinion, and brings up points from the source material in debating against that anime-only viewer. It shouldn't be hard to see where this comes across as unfair to the anime-only viewer. It's not letting that anime-only viewer develop his or her own opinions organically through their own experience with the narrative.
In the end, it's more of a battle between "anime canon" and "source canon". You can't actually blame anime-only people for trying to reason out with "the enlightened ones" through their limited understanding of the series. On the other hand, you can't possibly expect "the enlightened ones" to just accept that you got your ideas from an adaptation that is just 25-50% of what actually happened in the source.

What makes things worse is when anime-only people are questioning "source canon" when all they have was a rehashed anime canon based on the source. Those who flamebait using this is often called as "frodoing" in a deep, dark corner of the Internet.

It's understandable that people are trying to see the anime as a standalone project, but refusing to expose themselves to the source is a bit of a disrespect to the basis of the work. It's like a person who just watched a modern redux of Hamlet and refused to read the original book for some reason. In the case of Railgun S and Index, "There's this guy who was able to translate all thirty volumes into decently translated English and you still don't want to read it?!"
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Last edited by Marcus H.; 2013-09-18 at 21:16.
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Old 2013-09-18, 22:29   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
On the other hand, you can't possibly expect "the enlightened ones" to just accept that you got your ideas from an adaptation that is just 25-50% of what actually happened in the source.
Why not? Like you yourself pointed out, there's an "anime canon" and a "source canon".

If an anime-only viewer is expressing opinions on certain characters and plot points that viewer is only talking about the "anime canon" version thereof. This shouldn't be hard to understand and accept. It definitely shouldn't be hard to understand and accept when what is being discussed is an anime-only arc of all things.


Quote:
What makes things worse is when anime-only people are questioning "source canon" when all they have was a rehashed anime canon based on the source.
Well, I wouldn't question source canon. What's true for the source is obviously true for the source.


Quote:
It's understandable that people are trying to see the anime as a standalone project, but refusing to expose themselves to the source is a bit of a disrespect to the basis of the work. It's like a person who just watched a modern redux of Hamlet and refused to read the original book for some reason. In the case of Railgun S and Index, "There's this guy who was able to translate all thirty volumes into decently translated English and you still don't want to read it?!"
Watching anime is a very different experience from reading a novel. Both are very different experiences from, say, listening to a Sound Stage. It shouldn't be surprising that some people would prefer one experience over the other.

There are people who are movie aficionados. That's what they love - movies. They watch loads and loads of movies because that's their favorite entertainment medium. Do you really expect them to read every last book that was adapted into a movie that they watched and discussed with fellow movie-goers?

You mention thirty volumes of Railgun and Index - That's an awful lot of novel reading for someone that isn't much into novel reading, don't you think?

I might one day read the Railgun and Index novels, but novels are not my medium of preference. Anime is.

Honestly, this widespread complete lack of medium preference is something about the modern anime fandom that I've always been somewhat mystified by. It makes me wonder sometimes if this fandom is even truly an anime fandom.

In my experience, movie aficionados actually talk about the movies. That's what comes first for them. Sure, a movie reviewer might spend some time comparing a movie to a book its based on, but the main focus will be on the movie itself. Yet, with many anime fans, it often seems like the anime actually comes last for them.

As an anime aficionado, I have to admit I find this kind of strange.

Sorry for ranting a bit, but this is something I've wanted to get off my chest for awhile now. I have to admit this whole multi-media thing is something I haven't fully wrapped my head around.
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Old 2013-09-18, 22:50   Link #28
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Quote:
If an anime-only viewer is expressing opinions on certain characters and plot points that viewer is only talking about the "anime canon" version thereof. This shouldn't be hard to understand and accept. It definitely shouldn't be hard to understand and accept when what is being discussed is an anime-only arc of all things.
There's a sense of elitism present in most discussions. Those who only expose themselves in an anime series of a franchise is called a "secondary", and is often defended against because they fail or refuse to see the complete story of the source. To make things worse, some even try to use source reasoning on an anime-only arc. It's fine by me, seeing as them actually accepting a filler arc as part of canon, but then again, it exposes anime-only people to spoilers.

Let me declare my stand on this issue.
I don't really care about spoilers because I can handle spoilers well, but the way spoilers are being handled are slowly becoming a constricting experience — it may be one reason my activity in AnimeSuki has plummeted over the past few weeks. The more ways spoilers are treated as something bad, the less breathing room I have in posting. (It's not that I tend to post spoilers, but I sometimes crave for them instead.
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Old 2013-09-18, 22:50   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
At least relentlessflame agrees with me that those who "hate spoilers with a passion" are an irritating bunch. Because of their eagerness to avoid those spoilers, they have transformed a lot of big subforums to a card catalog where you have to check first if your post would fall under a particular category (you can't even speculate on episode threads, for crying out loud!) and hope that you didn't spoil anyone with your post.

This is probably why my activity in the Toaru Kagaku no Railgun subforum has dwindled a lot; I feel claustrophobic in seeing mountains of threads which should have been half its number today.

Hell, one particular site seems a better place for discussion sometimes.
I avoid those threads as well, but for different reasons. Animesuki's Toaru subforums, based on my experience, is the fanbase elitism incarnate.
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Old 2013-09-18, 22:58   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

What do my fellow AS members think?
My suggestion:

Anime Series

Absolutely NO SPOILERS* even with spoiler tags on currently running anime series.

**Spoilers that are about :

Character's > secrets, hidden power and future developments ae well as relationships still to be revealed whether it's from the other sources eg. manga, games LN and VN.

Future Events > deaths, betrayals, new enemies etc still to be revealed whether it's from the other sources eg. manga, games LN and VN.

Anime, Game, Manga and LN Comparisons are considered spoilers to their respected source. One may be a not care about an anime spoiler but cares about the game.

Spoilers are allowed ONLY even without Spoiler tagsfor Older series/Finished Series. Why would one look at an older series knowing the fact that most of the posts are written by those who already finished the series. New viewers should either avoid it or simply add a comment based on what they have already seen.

Spoilers with spoiler tags should always ( rather advice or encouraged) be used on Games, LN and VN discussions only.

Regarding Questions that contain spoilers, Spoiler tags are allowed to be used but is discouraged yet permitted. Answers are allowed only via PM or VM. Never post answers on spoiler questions on the the same thread.

Last edited by NoemiChan; 2013-09-18 at 23:19.
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Old 2013-09-18, 23:09   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
It's understandable that people are trying to see the anime as a standalone project, but refusing to expose themselves to the source is a bit of a disrespect to the basis of the work. It's like a person who just watched a modern redux of Hamlet and refused to read the original book for some reason. In the case of Railgun S and Index, "There's this guy who was able to translate all thirty volumes into decently translated English and you still don't want to read it?!"
But here's the problem. This is a subjective viewpoint through the lens of a fan. It is quite possible for someone to enjoy an adaptation of Hamlet yet think little of the source material itself.

Obviously if one is a big fan, they will go explore all the nuances and incarnations of it; but that is not a reasonable demand for the general populace especially when preferred mediums are different by default. It would be pretty insulting to say to people who only watched something as say the Shawshank Redemption and be like "well, that's disrespectful" if you didn't read the book.

Or in the context of anime, I really wouldn't care for playing the Clannad and Kanon VNs (except some parts), because I think that format isn't very engaging at all and I also wouldn't be able to receive any elements of surprise or shock that were intended since I already know what will happen. There's like only one VN I finished ever, G Senjou no Maou, but sadly it doesn't seem like it can be adapted, so I can't be elitist over it. But they're some of my favorite stuff; I honestly don't need that sorta judgement by an arbitrary group that self-defines them as enlightened.
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Old 2013-09-18, 23:10   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
It's understandable that people are trying to see the anime as a standalone project, but refusing to expose themselves to the source is a bit of a disrespect to the basis of the work. It's like a person who just watched a modern redux of Hamlet and refused to read the original book for some reason. In the case of Railgun S and Index, "There's this guy who was able to translate all thirty volumes into decently translated English and you still don't want to read it?!"
At least I will say that you perfectly personified my perception of the attitude that some source fans can have regarding people who "refuse" (choose not) to read the source material (or at least avail themselves of summaries). But I hope you at least do understand that this point of view is completely opposed to some others who make a choice to have the anime as their first (and sometimes only) exposure to the franchise. I don't think this is a "disrespect to the basis of the work", but rather that the experience of being exposed to a story for the first time through anime is different than being exposed through novels/manga, and some people enjoy that process. I want to try to respect that preference as well, because I too make that choice from time-to-time. You may "understand" that people make that choice, but if you can't really empathize with it because you consider it disrespectful... well, I guess that explains why you're frustrated by the spoiler policy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I avoid those threads as well, but for different reasons. Animesuki's Toaru subforums, based on my experience, is the fanbase elitism incarnate.
I want to say that we haven't yet come up with the right solution for this franchise... but, on the other hand, if both sides are equally unhappy, then maybe that's the sign of a balanced compromise. *shrug*

Honestly, as an anime-only viewer of the Index/Railgun franchise, I am often frustrated with the fact that it often feels overrun by over-zealous novel readers. But if all the other anime-only viewers avoid the forums as a result, then the trend will never reverse itself. I don't know how to solve this problem except to split the two sides even further, but this has the problems I outlined before.

I don't think there is an easy answer to this problem, and most of the "all you have to do is..." suggestions I've heard (so far anyway) fall short.

(Somehow the SAO sub-forum was easier to manage in this sense because it was a bit more straightforward as a direct adaptation of the source. All the comparisons were pushed out to its own thread, and the spoiler policy was strictly enforced... and eventually things settled into a rather comfortable rhythm in my opinion that allowed a lot of participation with lower risk of being spoiled. Attack on Titan is similarly a straightforward adaptation, so although the spoiler risk is still there, it's more manageable with aggressive enforcement. Raildex is more complicated...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by NoemiChan View Post
My suggestion:
Absolutely NO SPOILERS* even with spoiler tags in currently running anime series. [...]
Your suggestion is basically the same as what we currently have in place, just that we don't make any distinction based on when the show airs. We chose an "on-topic" model that basically said spoilers are always off-topic for an anime thread, since you never know when a future season may be announced. (Except in cases where both the source and anime have ended, and the anime adapted the entire source material.)

Your suggestion doesn't really address the more subtle issues that were being discussed in this thread. (Like having conversations about anime-original plot developments using source material spoilers as a foundation for that speculation without actually spoiling the details... It's quite a mess.)
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Old 2013-09-18, 23:35   Link #33
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Your suggestion doesn't really address the more subtle issues that were being discussed in this thread. (Like having conversations about anime-original plot developments using source material spoilers as a foundation for that speculation without actually spoiling the details... It's quite a mess.)
Just discouraged it or make a subforum. It may not be a spoiler but it can't be help when the moment comes, spoilers will just be revealed untentional to support a particular argument. Discussing it in a particular thread where supposedly the topic is about what was watched in an episode will fall into pages and pages of arguments instead. Again, just discouraged it or make a subforum.
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Old 2013-09-18, 23:43   Link #34
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You may "understand" that people make that choice, but if you can't really empathize with it because you consider it disrespectful... well, I guess that explains why you're frustrated by the spoiler policy.
I am frustrated by the spoiler policy because I don't know if what I'm posted should go elsewhere and not here, unlike before when speculations can be posted without any problems in an episode thread. It was simply the change of protocols clashing with the posting style I have developed over the years.
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Old 2013-09-19, 00:23   Link #35
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You've just realized people can be hurt by what you may do, and need to develop a sense of responsibility to prevent yourself from stepping on too many toes. It's not easy at all. I know it's a bit ironic hearing that from me, but I try very hard to hold back on my posts so they don't hurt people (that much). Much like Superman (Is that a spoiler?)

I also post on a few forums that do not allow any kind of profanity. It's quite hard for me to restrain myself like that too, because even if I disagree with them on that (I feel that kind of censorship is artificial) , I have enough respect for other people to manage myself and go the extra mile for it. That's why people like me. Err...
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Old 2013-09-19, 00:40   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I am frustrated by the spoiler policy because I don't know if what I'm posted should go elsewhere and not here, unlike before when speculations can be posted without any problems in an episode thread. It was simply the change of protocols clashing with the posting style I have developed over the years.
We've had speculation/theory threads for many years, so I don't think this is a "change". It's always been the policy to post in the most appropriate thread available, and the speculation thread is more specific than the episode thread in this case because it distinguishes between anime-only viewers and novel/manga readers, which is an important distinction for speculation.

So... I don't think this is actually any sort of change... but obviously it was taken that way, because both you and Triple_R perceived it that way at first, though you came at this problem from opposite ends of the spectrum. I thought I was only reinforcing something that had been around forever...
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Old 2013-09-19, 02:01   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Honestly, this widespread complete lack of medium preference is something about the modern anime fandom that I've always been somewhat mystified by. It makes me wonder sometimes if this fandom is even truly an anime fandom.

In my experience, movie aficionados actually talk about the movies. That's what comes first for them. Sure, a movie reviewer might spend some time comparing a movie to a book its based on, but the main focus will be on the movie itself. Yet, with many anime fans, it often seems like the anime actually comes last for them.

As an anime aficionado, I have to admit I find this kind of strange.
That's because you're a format aficionado. The people you're describing are fans of the entire franchise. They consume anything with the name(s) of the franchise on it. There are also people who only follow certain genres (like mecha), certain studios (like Kyoani), and certain people (like Okada or Urobuchi), among other niche things. Maybe one particular title really left an impression on them and that's the lens they judge everything else through. Happens quite a bit.

Fandom happens in all kinds of ways. When themes run parallel across media, comparisons and cross media discussion tends to flare up.

I'll just add it here, as a quick edit:

I find anime like Attack on Titan to be very cruel toward the fans it picks up. The manga is monthly, and the anime is faithful but extremely deliberate in what it is covering. The chances of a continuation of the anime are extremely slim unless the anime staff decide to create original episodes. While thankfully the show probably won't end like the Claymore anime did (opting for an original "ending" even though there was a perfectly good manga moment to stop at), it is striking how similar the end result will be. In the end, after most fans realize the chances of more Titan anime have dwindled to nothing and moved on, all that will be left is a forum of diehards who have nothing left but the manga to discuss.

And that's the unfortunate reality of a lot of anime.
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Old 2013-09-19, 03:29   Link #38
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Understand that there is no such thing as a "spoiler free" environment anywhere on the internet. By even reading a thread, you open yourself up to people who spoil, even if they didn't mean to. You can't "undo" spoilers. Once someone posts it, others will notice. It's unfortunate but that's the truth.
Which is why I no longer visit anime-related threads as often as I once did. The spoilers that annoy me are the ones that are dropped unwittingly by manga readers in response to anime-specific questions.

That's separate, though, from the topic of discussing different interpretations of the story. Like some people here, I believe that we should evaluate a story on its own merits. That means it's only fair to assess an anime as it is, without having to refer to its source material, if one exists.

Many fans, however, insist that there's a difference between adaptation and artistic licence. They strongly feel that if an anime is being marketed as an adaptation, it must be 100 per cent faithful to its source. And such fans tend to take great offence against anime-only viewers for not approaching the story as "intended" by the original creator.

Worse, such debate leads to only more inadvertent spoilers.

So, to save myself the anguish, I'd rather stay out of the forum altogether. It's a shame, but I increasingly find no loss in doing so.

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Old 2013-09-19, 04:42   Link #39
Solace
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Which is why I no longer visit anime-related threads as often as I once did. The spoilers that annoy me are the ones that are dropped unwittingly by manga readers in response to anime-specific questions.
Unfortunately all we can really do here is clean up after the fact and hope the punishment/cleanup deters others.

Quote:
That's separate, though, from the topic of discussing different interpretations of the story. Like some people here, I believe that we should evaluate a story on its own merits. That means it's only fair to assess an anime as it is, without having to refer to its source material, if one exists.

Many fans, however, insist that there's a difference between adaptation and artistic licence. They strongly feel that if an anime is being marketed as an adaptation, it must be 100 per cent faithful to its source. And such fans tend to take great offence against anime-only viewers for not approaching the story as "intended" by the original creator.

Worse, such debate leads to only more inadvertent spoilers.

So, the save myself the anguish, I'd rather stay out of the forum altogether. It's a shame, but I increasingly find no loss in doing so.
I can understand that. So let's say you had the power to address this from an admin/mod perspective. What would you do?

I ask this because I'm trying to wrap my head around the feedback. This isn't a new discussion, it's always been around in some form or another obviously. For me personally, I find plenty of enjoyment in discussing anime only material even when I find myself comparing it to other material (refraining from spoilers of course). Keep in mind though, as a mod I'm spoiled constantly. It's the nature of the job, and I can only be a mod because I don't mind it much (seriously, if you hate spoilers, you don't want this job ). I don't personally consider spoilers to be automatically bad. The vast majority of them never match up to the experience of seeing it for yourself.

Then again my line is essentially the "I am your father" spoilers. I consider major plot twists that clearly shift the entire tone of the story to be the worst kinds of things to spoil. This includes spoiling the ending of mysteries like who the killer is.

But how much protection can you offer against this? It's frequently the case where the anime spoils itself, or the plot is so obvious to some that they can guess/speculate with accuracy frequently. There's also the problem of heavy discussion where speculation is so rampant that someone is bound to get it right even if they're just tossing theories out there. It's not uncommon to get a report about spoilers which the reporter suspects comes from people who already know the source material and are just pretending they don't, when in reality it's just an uncannily accurate assessment/guess. A good example of this is a poster on another forum who figured out the identities of the Female, Armored, and Giant Titan in the Attack on Titan manga a year before the Female Titan arc was actually over. It was well reasoned and packed with evidence, but was so accurate you'd swear he time traveled to tell people about it.

There's also the question of discussing the merits of something as a stand alone project. A personal example of how difficult this can be even without spoilers is Highschool of the Dead. I was very frustrated by how much discussion was about the characters and not the plot itself. But many of the posters had absolutely no interest in deeper discussion because they enjoyed discussing the fan service more. Perhaps this is because of the show itself, but I found no interest in discussing unrealistic breast physics and gun porn like a horny teenager, and so there wasn't much to discuss. I did try a few times to change the conversation, but gave up quickly.

So even without spoilers, the various fans a community attracts can affect discussion and enjoyment, in many cases making it unenjoyable or uninteresting for others. When people don't want to discuss what you want to discuss, it's not good motivation for sticking around.
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Old 2013-09-19, 05:24   Link #40
TinyRedLeaf
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I can understand that. So let's say you had the power to address this from an admin/mod perspective. What would you do?
I don't think there's anything more the moderators can do. As relentlessflame said, you can't legislate change. You can only put up reminders as often as possible and hope that the community would take the cues.

It would be much easier for the user to take action or, in my case, avoid the action entirely. Don't read the forum and limit your exposure to only those few people you can trust not to spoil your enjoyment of the show.

In any case, I no longer find online discussion to be particularly helpful for my understanding of an anime series or movie. I can work most of it out on my own and I believe so can most viewers.

Very often, people visit online forums to find others who share similar opinions. They're just looking for others to validate their own views. There's also the desire to be "current" with trending topics. A lot of discussion, I find, stems from the simple wish to be part of the "in" crowd.

It takes effort to actually identify personal biases and consider alternative interpretations. And when the vast majority of anime is meant to be entertainment rather than serious art, is it truly worthwhile to make people treat the medium the way I might approach literature or arthouse movies?

Quite simply, I've learnt to live and let live.
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