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Old 2013-10-20, 00:49   Link #81
james0246
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Originally Posted by Midnight Commander View Post
I'll just accpet a difference in opinion on what teamwork means and how relavent it is to the story. To me, teamwork is applying a united effort to achieve some objective.
Agreed. To me, working beside someone is not the same as working with someone. This might seem somewhat rhetorical, but I doubt anyone here would argue that Naruto is a teammate to Joe Schmo former Rock-nin simply because they are both part of an alliance. Rather, it is his close friends that we argue as being teammates, and only then because we know he implicitly trusts them (in-part due to Itachi's words). To put it in perspective, Kakashi's words would have been meaningless oh so long ago if the end result is all that mattered to the equation of teamwork. Naruto has used teamwork throughout the series, but I see it rarely in the form of physical help, which is why I've argued against many of the above posts.
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Old 2013-10-20, 01:29   Link #82
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Naruto letting Itachi (or whomever) handle mooks (and yes, Kabuto is ultimately a mook in relation to the actual story) does not in any way reflect on any idea of teamwork. Is a private in an army a teammate with a general in the same army?
Do you actually interpret the scene that way? Itachi and Naruto are analogous to a private and general respectively, where Naruto "let" Itachi fight some so called unimportant enemy?
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Old 2013-10-20, 02:09   Link #83
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Do you actually interpret the scene that way? Itachi and Naruto are analogous to a private and general respectively, where Naruto "let" Itachi fight some so called unimportant enemy?
it's nonsense. kabuto was a huge player in the series (particularly this arc). this war (which has lasted so long I dont' even feel like looking it up) was entirely against obito and kabuto. naruto took on obito, while itachi took on kabuto. if half of one side of a war is a 'mook' then... i don't even know where to begin. not only that, but edo-madara is thanks to kabuto as well. no offense to james, but it strikes me as a very stubborn argument
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Old 2013-10-20, 02:14   Link #84
Artimus_Prime
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I'm thinking if madara is gonna make a move, now is as good a time as any...
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Old 2013-10-20, 07:05   Link #85
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it's nonsense. kabuto was a huge player in the series (particularly this arc). this war (which has lasted so long I dont' even feel like looking it up) was entirely against obito and kabuto. naruto took on obito, while itachi took on kabuto. if half of one side of a war is a 'mook' then... i don't even know where to begin. not only that, but edo-madara is thanks to kabuto as well. no offense to james, but it strikes me as a very stubborn argument
Many chapters ago i argued that Tobito is very underwhelming in this war, it was all about Kabuto and his edo tensei army. Those 100,000 Zetsu clones did seem to be useless. I mean if the strongest guys of the alliance weren't fighting against the elite Edo Tensei opponents then they would have massacred all Zetsus in the first day.
Imagine what would have happened if Itachi didn't turn to the alliance side. A force with Madara, Itachi and Nagato, and then there's Sage-Kabuto.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-10-20 at 09:17.
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Old 2013-10-20, 08:46   Link #86
james0246
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Do you actually interpret the scene that way? Itachi and Naruto are analogous to a private and general respectively, where Naruto "let" Itachi fight some so called unimportant enemy?
I do not dispute his powers, but within the context of the war itself, Kabuto was a diversion. Obito already had plans to facilitate the entire war effort himself; from using Zetsu clones, to the Gedo statute and individual Bijuu under his command. The zombies were an added bonus to Obito's forces, but within the context of the greater story they really didn't matter all that much beyond being there to give the tertiary characters things to do (and I guess Naruto's lesson in teamwork, which we are disputing currently ).

In other words, the entire story arc could have been told without the zombies and Kabuto and nothing would have been lost save for a few token character moments that, more often than not, we hated anyway.

That being said, I explicitly called Itachi another 'general' within the analogy (you can have more than one general after all).

edit: I forgot, there was one thing the zombies were actually good for in the context of the actual story: providing a portion of the Kyuubi via the Zombie Twins. There are other ways Kishimoto could have gone about doing this (Orochimaru coming back, summoning the Kages, and Obito taking the Kyuubi from Minato; or he could have just taken the beast from Naruto), but the Zombie Twins were a fast and effective way of moving the plot forward, even if they were an extreme contrivance and awful characters in their own right.

Last edited by james0246; 2013-10-20 at 08:58.
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Old 2013-10-20, 09:52   Link #87
Midnight Commander
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I do not dispute his powers, but within the context of the war itself, Kabuto was a diversion.
After reading your last few posts, you seem to have a pretty arrogant attitude towards certain characters in the story. Kabuto and Obito were actually two intelligent villains temporarily working together who were eventually going to betray one another since they both had their own agendas. Their relationship was certainly not not Obito the mastermind and Kabuto the henchman or "mook"; and judging by Obito's disposition during their meeting he didn't think so either.

Its also interesting that some people seem to think of Kabuto as some lowly servent, and are also dissapointed that a "hack" like Obito became such a powerful villain. Apparently its plausible for Naruto to become very powerful from such humble beginnings but not others :/
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Old 2013-10-20, 10:24   Link #88
james0246
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Originally Posted by Midnight Commander View Post
After reading your last few posts, you seem to have a pretty arrogant attitude towards certain characters in the story. Kabuto and Obito were actually two intelligent villains temporarily working together who were eventually going to betray one another since they both had their own agendas. Their relationship was certainly not not Obito the mastermind and Kabuto the henchman or "mook"; and judging by Obito's disposition during their meeting he didn't think so either.
I never once claimed that Kabuto was subservient to Obito. He definitely had his own agenda (I do not recall if it was ever elucidated, but he had one), and he could fight on par with any of the Kages and heavy hitters. Rather, I specifically explained that within the context of the story being told (which is a Naruto-centric story), he was ultimately a diversion. (You may dislike my use of the word "mook", for that I apologize, but I obviously felt that Kabuto's contribution had less actual impact than others.)

Let me reorient the current discussion: if Kabuto/Zombies were to have been completely removed from this war, would the central story have really lost anything? Gaining the Kyuubi parts was important, but there are other potential avenues to have gained that power. Itachi's words, which we are still disputing, were important, but why couldn't any number of other powerful individuals have said something similar? Hell, Sasuke didn't even really gain that much from Itachi's appearance, it was Orochimaru and the Hokage's that helped Sasuke, and that story could have been told independent of the zombies. Finally, there were the tertiary characters that sometimes gained relevant closure from the zombies, but did we really care that much about Chouji's whatever his problem was, or Samurai guys something with Salamander man (I think there was something with Zabuza as well, but it is hard to recall)? Sai's zombie and the Sasori incident were the only ones I could recall being meaningful to the characters involved, but maybe that is just me.

Personally, I saw the zombies as a diversion, sometimes fun, often not; but they were not central to Naruto's story. Consequently, I do weigh Kabuto lesser on the scale of importance simply because I feel he made less of an impact on the story. If you fell that is arrogant, I apologize. I am not truly judging the characters based on their individual merits (in which case, I greatly prefer Kabuto over Obito as a villain), but simply how they function within the overarching story.

Last edited by james0246; 2013-10-20 at 11:26.
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Old 2013-10-20, 11:50   Link #89
Midnight Commander
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I never once claimed that Kabuto was subservient to Obito. He definitely had his own agenda (I do not recall if it was ever elucidated, but he had one), and he could fight on par with any of the Kages and heavy hitters. Rather, I specifically explained that within the context of the story being told (which is a Naruto-centric story), he was ultimately a diversion. (You may dislike my use of the word "mook", for that I apologize, but I obviously felt that Kabuto's contribution had less actual impact than others.)
If you mean he had less impact than others in the story as a whole, I'd agree, but within the context of the war he had quite the impact. Kabuto could have started a war all on his own tbh; I was just looking at the story from more of an in-story perspective here.
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Obito already had plans for a war without Kabuto (he even had plans to bring back Madara independent of edo tensei), and there is no reason to believe that his plans wouldn't have worked or at least worked as well (considering he had complete control of the Bijuu, he could have simply sent them out and destroyed the armies whenever he desired, and that's not including using the Gedo statue itself, not to mention personally fighting).
Kabuto had plans without him as well. And again, judging by the effort it took to stop him, he could have started a war on his own and probably been able to create some fodder through experiments or recruiting actual soldiers elsewhere, perhaps he'd have ressurected orochimaru. The alliance is pretty lucky that Edo-Itachi met Naruto on the battlefield and escaped via genjitsu; considering what just him and Nagato would be able to accomplish by themselves. I think its doubtful that Naruto on his own would have been able to elegantly make Kabuto cancel the technique. Though Madara would have still been able to release himself...
Quote:
To explain my point a little more clearly, one of the reasons you can tell that a character or event is important to a story (beyond thematic elements) is that it can't be easily be replaced or if the arc/motivations were removed there would be a noticeable absence.
Quote:
Personally, I saw the zombies as a diversion, sometimes fun, often not; but they were not central to Naruto's story. Consequently, I do weigh Kabuto lesser on the scale of importance simply because I feel he made less of an impact on the story.
lol no need for apologies at all. I wasn't angry over that, it just seemed that you viewed Kabuto and Itachi (and others at times) rather low on the pecking order than they actually were from my point of view, but I understand your reasoning. You're simply looking at things from the perspective of the overall story revolving around Naruto and what his main quest is, so as you'd say, "fair enough".
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Old 2013-10-20, 13:18   Link #90
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Rather, I specifically explained that within the context of the story being told (which is a Naruto-centric story), he was ultimately a diversion.

Let me reorient the current discussion: if Kabuto/Zombies were to have been completely removed from this war, would the central story have really lost anything?
i couldn't disagree more. you could technically look at any character in any series and call them a diversion and say someone else could have done what they have done if you switch things around and mentally rewrite the story. the fact is that kabuto was what he was and did what he did. first off, he's the reason madara is around which is HUGE and should be needless to say. secondly he was his own undoing by means of edo-itachi. kabuto was so powerful and his edo-tensei was so insanely complete that he was more powerful than the entire ninja world combined including obito and whatever he had at his disposal. not only was kabuto a sage and had many characters' bloodline limits, he had tools of the caliber of nagato, itachi, madara, etc.. and let's not forget that even the edo-jinchuurikis that obito was using were kabutos. and as you said, he's responsible for the juubi getting the kyuubi chakra. he even increased zetsu's fighting capability and seeing as how zetsu was merely fodder, he must have been REALLY weak before kabuto enhanced him. kabuto was also responsible for sasuke's change of heart since he technically reunited the brothers. and before anyone jumps on me saying hashirama changed his heart, it was actually both itachi and hashirama. itachi changed him from insane to neutral and hashirama changed him from neutral to 'good' again.

and just to say, i'm not defending the story of the edo-tensei army because i think it sucked and would rather it didn't happen, but it did and it was insanely powerful and did in fact alter the course of the story in many significant ways, the least of which was probably giving closure to many 'evil' characters who turned out to have a heart after all. again, something i dislike but it's there
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Old 2013-10-20, 13:52   Link #91
james0246
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he could have started a war on his own and probably been able to create some fodder through experiments or recruiting actual soldiers elsewhere
I wish he did. An actual three-sided war would have been interesting and potentially fun.

I would have also liked the smaller villages to have had a stake in this war (what with them being the unofficial playing grounds for all the larger villages wars). There is quite a bit of geo-political intrigue that could have been found in these lesser villages attempting to stay active in the face of the larger villages constant wars.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
you could technically look at any character in any series and call them a diversion and say someone else could have done what they have done if you switch things around and mentally rewrite the story.
Not really. A character is supposed to be integral to the story being told, their impact, whether small or large, should be entirely theirs. For example, say what you will about Shikimaru's inability to use his intelligence, in the end he still has a definitive place within the story and when he speaks or acts no one else can say what he is saying or do what he is doing (and this is true for a great deal of the characters in the series). Kabuto's accomplishments, though, in this war were either lackluster (every zombie that was not Itachi or the Zombie twins) or ultimately replaceable (sorry, but most of what Itachi did for Naruto could have been done by anyone, and no I do not think Itachi made Sasuke neutral). Madara was already going to come back some other way (both he and Obito said as much), and while the Zombie twins were useful, they were ultimately an extreme deus ex machina that prevented Naruto from every actually being in danger (preventing any interesting drama). (And no, the evil side characters getting closure was not really important to the overarching storyline.) In the end, I expect Kabuto reappearance was there entirely to bring back Orochimaru.
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Old 2013-10-20, 20:06   Link #92
itachi-san314
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I wish he did. An actual three-sided war would have been interesting and potentially fun.

I would have also liked the smaller villages to have had a stake in this war (what with them being the unofficial playing grounds for all the larger villages wars). There is quite a bit of geo-political intrigue that could have been found in these lesser villages attempting to stay active in the face of the larger villages constant wars.
well i certainly agree about this. it would be tough to write this 'war' in a less interesting way than the one we got.

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Not really. A character is supposed to be integral to the story being told, their impact, whether small or large, should be entirely theirs.
people could argue anything, much like you're doing here. i.e. any smart decision shikamaru has made could have been made by kakashi or shikaku or really any character above average intelligence like neji who just happened to be in the right place and had a moment of clarity. i don't think shikamaru is replaceable, i'm just making a point. i dont think kabuto was replaceable either. you might as well say every villain from zabuza to akatsuki members aren't integral to the story since someone else could have fought team kakashi or captured the bijou. it's a tiring and pointless argument to make

Quote:
(And no, the evil side characters getting closure was not really important to the overarching storyline.)
so you're saying that characters with significant panel time getting closure isn't important? you are clearly a point A to point B type of reader then. if something doesn't impact the protagonist getting from one place to another then i guess stories are just pointless again, i'm not saying it's good writing, i think it sucked, but since when are characters getting closure unimportant story lines?

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In the end, I expect Kabuto reappearance was there entirely to bring back Orochimaru.
it's funny how you're being totally hypocritical here. anything could have brought orochimaru back. just setting anko and sasuke anywhere else would have worked
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Old 2013-10-22, 06:07   Link #93
Emilis
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Haven't seen anyone else bring it up so I'll throw out an idea:

Last manga titled "I'll sleep" Obito grabs Sasuke and Naruto and says "I'll take you into the dream, there's no more time."

Next manga everyone gathers together, Naruto and Sasuke fuse their powers and all the ninja deliver a crushing one hit KO using the power of friendship.

Cheesy? Yes, but it's also probably the ultimate conclusion that Naruto would hope for from this point. If it wasn't for the fact that there was already a movie kind of showing what a prototype dream would be like, I'd totally believe the dream's started and it begins with the ninja's sudden total over powering of Obito. Not sure I think it's true, but I'm really hoping. It could sure make the plot more interesting and justify the cheese and improbable amount of power everyone's showing.
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Old 2013-10-22, 09:42   Link #94
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Sorry guys, if theres already a post somewhere about this.. but do you guys think naruto is really ending? Is there going to be no naruto vs sasuke showdown? Any word from the author about his plans for the manga?
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Old 2013-10-22, 12:03   Link #95
james0246
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Sorry I couldn't respond until now.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
people could argue anything, much like you're doing here. i.e. any smart decision shikamaru has made could have been made by kakashi or shikaku or really any character above average intelligence like neji who just happened to be in the right place and had a moment of clarity. i don't think shikamaru is replaceable, i'm just making a point. i dont think kabuto was replaceable either. you might as well say every villain from zabuza to akatsuki members aren't integral to the story since someone else could have fought team kakashi or captured the bijou. it's a tiring and pointless argument to make
You seem to have misunderstood what I've said. You can't willy-nilly replace anyone whenever you want. Specific characters are written for specific roles. Itachi could no more replace Hidan than Nagato could replace Danzou or Obito could replace Zabuza. They were written with exact particular influence and importance on the story, and their impact is felt from beginning to end. More importantly, their actions all acted as distinct movements forward in the overarching story Kishimoto is trying to accomplish. Sadly, I do not feel Kabuto's actions in this war meet the same standards (note, I do think Kabuto's personal story would have met the criteria I've listed, but he was shoe-horned into the war in such a way that he was kind of overwritten as to his personal desires or what he truly wished to accomplish).

The zombies offered little in the way of concrete plot advancement, and if anything created great moments of false conflict (the zombie twins appearing offering a solution that keeps Naruto safe; Asuma and Chouji's whatever, Hanzou, Zabuza, etc. Most recently the Hokages undermined Naruto and Sasuke and the entire alliance). Even Itachi's words to Naruto weren't truly plot centric to his experiences or abilities (Nagato could have just as easily if not better said something similar in that instance, and Kakashi, Bi and quite a few other living characters could have said something as relevant). And no, I still do not believe Itachi helped Sasuke all that much, and even if he did, there could have been other more interesting ways such help could have occurred (maybe Itachi could have sealed a portion of himself within his eyes and when Sasuke used them we could have been provided with a moment for Itachi to reveal himself to Sasuke similar to how Minato and Kushina sealed away part of themselves to interact with Naruto).

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
so you're saying that characters with significant panel time getting closure isn't important? you are clearly a point A to point B type of reader then. if something doesn't impact the protagonist getting from one place to another then i guess stories are just pointless again, i'm not saying it's good writing, i think it sucked, but since when are characters getting closure unimportant story lines
I don't know if you're undervaluing or overvaluing the importance of what Kabuto forced us to endure .

Side stories/quests are great for expanding the fictional world and creating character definition. The best side stories/quests have thematic elements that can tie in directly to either the main protagonist or the overarching story. That being said, the zombies offer very little. At best, Sai's zombie gave the character some needed closure, but I doubt anyone really cared, and frankly the closure could have been found outside of resurrecting a dead one-dimensional character for a vague two-dimensional character that most try and forget. The Sasori moment was also nice for similar reasons (though Sasori needed even less closure). Additionally, both have semi-coherent thematic connections to the main storyline (redemption based on friendship, the evils of the village system, etc). Sadly, none of the other zombies, sans Itachi, offered anything really interesting or definitive either as their own one-off side stories or as a means of looking at the main story from a different view. The zombies were a diversion added to give characters something to do, and they were mostly awful at that task. The worst were probably Asuma and Gaara's father, since they offered us absolutely nothing new or interesting, but beyond that are those that appeared and then did nothing (ala Dan, Haku, Chiyo, Kimimaro or Zabuza, who appeared and then did nothing of real relevance).

All in all, nearly the entire zombie brigade was a waste of time and endlessly boring.

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anything could have brought orochimaru back. just setting anko and sasuke anywhere else would have worked
I agree. In fact, that's kind of my point. Kabuto was an easy way to bring back Orochimaru, but there were other methods available that didn't require a lot of logic stretching and overwrought storylines...which is what Kishimoto did with the zombies and Kabuto to begin with .

Last edited by james0246; 2013-10-22 at 12:34.
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