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Old 2013-10-19, 11:55   Link #1
BaronNoir
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Can I get into legal trouble for an ''To Love Ru'' artbook ?

I imported with AMI AMI toward Canada an ''To Love Ru'' official artbook.

The parcel was opened (apparently for a random control) and hold at customs for 10 days before I received it without any further mention.

Let's be honest here, ''To Love Ru'' is not the most, uh.....glorious...anime, so I'm sick worried about getting into trouble about this. What do you think ?

(NB: what worries me is the Canadian laws against obscenity...)
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Old 2013-10-19, 12:03   Link #2
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It's problematic because Canada does consider anime/manga stuff to be potentially "child porn", if they are of characters of less than legal age engaged in explicit sexual depictions, so if it's Darkness which can be very explicit that'a a big problem. It's terrible, but it's best to be careful to not go through customs with anything that could get you in trouble. And it'd be hard to argue something like "well, she's an alien so..." And anything involving Mikan is just not gonna fly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_re...ography#Canada

Quote:
Canadian law forbids the production, distribution, and possession of child pornography. Possession of child pornography is punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Production and distribution of child pornography is punishable by up to 20 years in prison. Browsing for child pornography on the internet is punishable by up to 5 years in prison. Prohibitions cover visual representations of sexual activity by
persons (real or imaginary) under the age of 18, depiction of their sexual organ/anal region for a sexual purpose
, or any written material* or visual representation that advocates child pornography offenses against a person under 18. There is an exception for material with artistic merit or an educational, scientific, or medical purpose. The law against simple possession of child pornography was declared void in British Columbia by a 1998 provincial court ruling but this decision was overturned two years later by the Canadian Supreme Court.[25] The high court further concluded that a "person" under the law could be either real or fictional and that the prohibition of written texts was potentially acceptable.[26][27] Cases have now been prosecuted in Canada involving anime and manga child pornography.[5]
By this logic, there's no difference between lolicon and many other kinds of heavy fanservice if they aren't of age. This makes it retarded because hentai would pass since they usually put every character as 18+.

*Written? Oh dear. "And then Saki and Nodoka started making out".... Oh crap, don't arrest me.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-10-19 at 12:28.
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Old 2013-10-19, 12:13   Link #3
BaronNoir
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It was not ''Darkness'', at the very least.

On the other hand, I did receive the parcel at the end without any mention, so I guess my situation is not THAT bad. (The whole thing panicked me to the point that the artbook and the couple of mangas I have of ''Love Ru'' ended up in the trashbag)
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Old 2013-10-19, 12:22   Link #4
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You dont have to toss it away; I don't think they'd raid your house.

But in all honesty, just be very careful on these matters, because while sane people aren't going to enforce this against you, there's always some overzealous power hungry freak that might.

Just don't go through customs with any of it.

But yea, don't try anything with Darkness. Pre-Darkness is kinda borderline, but Darkness would fail to this rules stated above.
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Old 2013-10-19, 13:00   Link #5
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In practice, Canadian Customs representatives have commented before that they are aware of anime/manga culture and know that -- due to art style and everything else -- they're not going to throw the book at you for "fanservice". Similar fanservice-filled manga have actually been published in Canada, so precedent suggests they're not going to lose their mind over that. The stuff that has actually been turned away is generally 18+ manga or anime that contain explicit, obscene content. So although the law is written broadly, they don't take an overly-literal reading when it comes to "mild" stuff. And yes, in considering the broad spectrum of stuff that's out there, To-Love Ru Darkness is mild; it just gets away with a lot for what is technically an all-ages work in Japan.

Of course, I am not a lawyer, but from the Canadian importers I know, this sort of stuff is regularly imported without issue.
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Old 2013-10-19, 13:30   Link #6
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The only time I've heard of them raiding someone's house I recall it involved importing lolicon rape type material, though I recall one guy got arrested at the border for having a Nanoha doujin on his laptop and was later released after the crown dropped charges. In other situations I've only heard of package seizures and the like.

As for the quoted wikipedia paragraph, I'm not an expert but I think it misses a couple of the nuances:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...8.html#docCont

Note that:
-The law targets depictions of explicit sexual activity, not necessarily all depictions. It also doesn't target all nudity.
-Written material is only targeted if it advocates sexual activity with an underaged person (though case law says you can do so implicitly) or depicts in a manner designed to arouse sexual activity with minors that would be illegal under the Criminal Code (Canada is actually pretty reasonable about teens screwing each other).
-There is an artistic merit defense.

The basic gist I get is they aren't trying to target absolutely everything - and indeed, from what I've observed a lot of stuff gets through if it's not too explicit.

Obscenity provisions I'm less sure on, though I know they're often used to seize material containing with a focus on sexual violence.
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Old 2013-10-19, 13:37   Link #7
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My point is that the writing is extremely ambiguous, and I am aware that nudity does not equal obscenity. You don't have to go to the extremes of tossing all your manga away and delete all your fanfiction because they won't raid you. I used Darkness as an example as something that's hardly as extreme as what you could get that you could potentially get hung anyways. (Aka, if they really want to, you can't argue yourself out of it). A broad law is always dangerous because while they won't chase you for it, it's an opportunity.

And the truth is, do you want to argue with them on this when it's their word vs yours? There's a lot of people who aren't knowledgable on these things and don't care. You can explain it to us easily why it isn't a bad thing; it's not so easy when people just have their conceived stereotype of animu. And even if it turns out they are wrong, you are right, and they do let you go, I just don't think it's worth the hassle in a lot of circumstances. You don't be want to be "that one"

Never paint yourself into a dead end. And umm, Fuck the Police.
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Old 2013-10-19, 13:49   Link #8
0utf0xZer0
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I'm not a fan of the law and I'm actually serious cautious about what I import myself. I'm just saying there's a pretty established track record out there for both individuals and businesses successfully importing fanservicy material.
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Old 2013-10-19, 14:07   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
A broad law is always dangerous because while they won't chase you for it, it's an opportunity.

And the truth is, do you want to argue with them on this when it's their word vs yours?
But there's no sense living in fear either, like "based on this poorly-worded law, they could go after me if they so choose based on an overly-broad interpretation". If someone's going to do that, it probably wouldn't even take something like Darkness to be the thing that puts someone over the edge. If you look at the actual precedent, it sets a pattern of what is and isn't okay and what sorts of things they're worried about, so I think people shouldn't feel overly-afraid about following in those footsteps. Eroge and doujin are sold in Canada, but there's just a line about how much can be depicted.

Of course, there's a risk, and people have to decide how much risk they're willing to take. But, in this case for example, they reviewed the book and let it pass through customs, so it's in the clear. No sense worrying about it further. They're not the sort to let something pass through their fingers and then later come after you like some sort of "gotcha". Customs' job is to keep illegal items out of the country in the first place.
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Old 2013-10-19, 17:48   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
They're not the sort to let something pass through their fingers and then later come after you like some sort of "gotcha". Customs' job is to keep illegal items out of the country in the first place.
Actually, they do this in the US a lot with drug orders from the internet. "Controlled delivery"...send you a package...and let you sign it. If you sign it, they raid you. A friend who ordered off SR told me about it...granted, lolicon probably carries a lot lower charges than drug imports.

Anyways...from what I heard, it still might depend on what province it arrives in; Ontario is the strictest, while Quebec and British Columbia might be a bit looser. However, this is just a guess.
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Old 2013-10-19, 18:32   Link #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
But there's no sense living in fear either, like "based on this poorly-worded law, they could go after me if they so choose based on an overly-broad interpretation". If someone's going to do that, it probably wouldn't even take something like Darkness to be the thing that puts someone over the edge. If you look at the actual precedent, it sets a pattern of what is and isn't okay and what sorts of things they're worried about, so I think people shouldn't feel overly-afraid about following in those footsteps. Eroge and doujin are sold in Canada, but there's just a line about how much can be depicted.

Of course, there's a risk, and people have to decide how much risk they're willing to take. But, in this case for example, they reviewed the book and let it pass through customs, so it's in the clear. No sense worrying about it further. They're not the sort to let something pass through their fingers and then later come after you like some sort of "gotcha". Customs' job is to keep illegal items out of the country in the first place.
Sure, but I'm not completely referring to this particular delivery; you may be right that this passed without hitches, but it still means that one should be cautious in the future. It just takes a moment of ignorance from someone that means well to cause trouble.

I think it's more important to pass all available information so that people have to ability to protect themselves in whatever decision they choose in the future. Especially since we don't like the nature of things in their locality, I think it's better to err on the side of caution rather than just saying nothing will happen; it's more like nothing will happen in this instance.

Like I've said before in this thread that no sane person is going to enforce anything in these cases and no you shouldn't toss your stuff away. But it's still an issue that requires some concern.
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Old 2013-10-19, 20:43   Link #12
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We'll in the future, you could just not order anything questionable. I don't think it's worth it if you do get raided, jailed, smeared in the press etc.
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Old 2013-10-19, 20:55   Link #13
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I got through customs just fine when coming home from Anime Expo with a bag full of stuff. Granted, none of the artbooks/figures/merch I buy has anything you could call fanservice in them, but all they did was look in the bag. Didn't flip open any books, open any packaging, anything like that.

They do their job as needed, but they won't hold you for anything unnecessary. Of course, don't be taking straight-up hentai through there, because that'll immediately trip a red flag.
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Old 2013-10-20, 05:09   Link #14
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I bought a copy of To-Love-Ru Darkness Venus from Amazon.com and was never hauled in jail.
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Old 2013-10-20, 06:52   Link #15
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Archon Wing did emphasis a lot on "don't allow questionable material go through custom". Agreed that it increases the chance, but i thought they could track any of those questionable materials if you access it through the net?

Or is it because they are physical evidences in your luggage. While if it's on internet, you can just make excuses for it (like "i click on the link without knowing what is inside") ?
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Old 2013-10-20, 11:07   Link #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
Archon Wing did emphasis a lot on "don't allow questionable material go through custom". Agreed that it increases the chance, but i thought they could track any of those questionable materials if you access it through the net?

Or is it because they are physical evidences in your luggage. While if it's on internet, you can just make excuses for it (like "i click on the link without knowing what is inside") ?
It's safe to assume that, if they have reason to suspect you, they could figure out anything they need from your Internet browsing history in most countries, unless you're going through great pains to try to keep it masked and never ever screw up (and pretty much everyone screws up, as history has proven). But, in the grand scheme of everything going on over the Internet, worrying about people downloading this or that may-be-possibly-impermissible-but-we're-not-sure thing isn't very practical. Whereas, when you're crossing the border, you're subjecting yourself and your possessions to inspection anyway (and in the case of a package, it's also subject to inspection). So it's mostly a question of opportunity and circumstance. And that's why Archon_Wing bring up the point about subjecting yourself to undue risk. The chances of inspection are way higher when things cross the border physically due to the mechanisms in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papermario13689 View Post
Of course, don't be taking straight-up hentai through there, because that'll immediately trip a red flag.
You can take "straight-up hentai" through there, as in most cases it isn't illegal. It's just a question of whether you want to sit there as they go through it and deal with the possible questionable looks that may result... (I'm reminded of the stories from people who travel the anime convention circuit share about taking their eroge/doujin collections across borders. )

In the end, most agents have seen it all and just don't care unless it is, in fact, illegal. Each country has their own thing they're uptight about. My experience travelling has been that U.S. customs are mostly about "securing our borders", and Canadian customs are mostly about "securing our import taxes", though of course both care about both issues.
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Old 2013-10-20, 11:45   Link #17
BaronNoir
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Thanks for answer. I had not given much though before ordering the artbook, to Love Ru being, as I said, dubious but not hentai. (I just hope to not be flagged or something, because I ordered a couple of figurines from AMI-AMI. Not R-Rated figurines, or even ''Beach Queens'' figurines, but....)

Just to ask one for last time for your opinion : if the customs let the artbook pass without any question (there was plently of fanservice in the book, but not much nudity proper), I don't risk anything legally ?
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Old 2013-10-20, 13:53   Link #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronNoir View Post
Thanks for answer. I had not given much though before ordering the artbook, to Love Ru being, as I said, dubious but not hentai. (I just hope to not be flagged or something, because I ordered a couple of figurines from AMI-AMI. Not R-Rated figurines, or even ''Beach Queens'' figurines, but....)

Just to ask one for last time for your opinion : if the customs let the artbook pass without any question (there was plently of fanservice in the book, but not much nudity proper), I don't risk anything legally ?
As I said before, even most "hentai" is not illegal in Canada. No one here are lawyers (I think?) so we can't advise about legal risk, but I know people who import things much more risqué into Canada all the time (like actual hentai and eroge) and have no problems even when the packages are searched at customs. Figurines are also no problem (even "sexy" ones). You're nowhere close to the apparent line at this point, so I wouldn't worry.
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Old 2013-10-20, 14:49   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
Archon Wing did emphasis a lot on "don't allow questionable material go through custom". Agreed that it increases the chance, but i thought they could track any of those questionable materials if you access it through the net?

Or is it because they are physical evidences in your luggage. While if it's on internet, you can just make excuses for it (like "i click on the link without knowing what is inside") ?
In order to get you for internet stuff, it would require your ISP to rat you out, which does happen often regarding music. For shit like this, any instance of lolicon being downloaded being used against people at least in the US and I don't see how it'd be any diffrent up there is when there's proof of people downloading illegal images of actual children. But the media would like you to have you believe otherwise by association. Just like how online poker is "illegal" in the US but it's actually more of a tax issue. Also, from the general trend I assume Canada respects privacy more than they do over here, which isn't saying much but it should set a standard somewhere.

You're not going to get pwned for just lolicon. The chances of that exist but it's as low as me getting breast cancer. And I'm a guy.

And yes, when it comes to physical "old fashioned" evidence, it's just much harder to disassociate it from yourself. And the ability to physically detain you that's the key problem. You might be left with nothing bad on you, but authorities will often try to use "tactics" to get you to "confess" because it's their job to assume you're up to no good.

And the certain irony that hentai would completely skirt the law if it wasn't totally "obscene" because those cartoon characters are of age makes me chuckle a bit. And a possible workaround, really. >.>

In the end, this is based of my own paranoia, and yes, I would say such a law is bullshit and it would deter me a bit; if possible I wouldn't import anything and only bother it if it was available in country, or better yet, locally. :S That's how the law would affect me personally.
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Old 2013-10-20, 15:04   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
In order to get you for internet stuff, it would require your ISP to rat you out, which does happen often regarding music. For shit like this, any instance of lolicon being downloaded being used against people at least in the US and I don't see how it'd be any diffrent up there is when there's proof of people downloading illegal images of actual children. But the media would like you to have you believe otherwise by association. Just like how online poker is "illegal" in the US but it's actually more of a tax issue. Also, from the general trend I assume Canada respects privacy more than they do over here, which isn't saying much but it should set a standard somewhere.

You're not going to get pwned for just lolicon. The chances of that exist but it's as low as me getting breast cancer. And I'm a guy.

And yes, when it comes to physical "old fashioned" evidence, it's just much harder to disassociate it from yourself. And the ability to physically detain you that's the key problem. You might be left with nothing bad on you, but authorities will often try to use "tactics" to get you to "confess" because it's their job to assume you're up to no good.

And the certain irony that hentai would completely skirt the law if it wasn't totally "obscene" because those cartoon characters are of age makes me chuckle a bit. And a possible workaround, really. >.>

In the end, this is based of my own paranoia, and yes, I would say such a law is bullshit and it would deter me a bit; if possible I wouldn't import anything and only bother it if it was available in country, or better yet, locally. :S That's how the law would affect me personally.
Well, lolicon isn't exactly illegal in the US though, and it's pretty much sold in a lot of places (heck, you can find stuff worse than the To-Love-Ru artbooks in your Barnes and Noble)...usually Feds in any nation only cares if you downloaded from a real child porn site.

However, that's one pretty big issue right there. A lot of the anime/hentai/manga/doujin seized by Canadian authorities actually came via the United States and not from Japan, ironically; some people told me that they felt safe "importing" lolicon from the US instead of Japan, which is hilariously false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronNoir View Post
Just to ask one for last time for your opinion : if the customs let the artbook pass without any question (there was plently of fanservice in the book, but not much nudity proper), I don't risk anything legally ?
Like I said before...IDK if they do this in Canada, but there's this thing called "controlled delivery" where Customs inspect something to see where it was intended to go. Generally this doesn't happen though...
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