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Old 2013-10-20, 15:20   Link #1
ellessarr
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(Mis)perceptions of fanservice/ecchi/hentai

hello guys, after read some threads and posts i noticed something which disturbed me a few , the "age of hate fanservice/ecchi/hentai, now i see a lot of complains about fanservice in almost every anime or manga and worse i see wrong definitions de fanservice, ecchi and hentai.

prepare yourself for a little wall of texts

Spoiler:

let's discuss.

ps: srry for bad english or like others like to call "engrish"

Last edited by ellessarr; 2013-10-20 at 15:32.
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Old 2013-10-20, 19:54   Link #2
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The title of this thread is misleading. It seems to be asking us what the definition of these terms (fanservice/ecchi/hentai) mean, while your actual post goes on about people's perception of anime and manga. You might need a mod to clear that up for you by changing the title.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
i see peoples calling simple fanservice mangas as ecchi or even hentai and ofcourse ecchi being called hentai, the line between hentai and non hentai vanished, now any random pantshot or naked bath and peoples start to call hentai or ecchi(specially just fanservice mangas/anime, where we get some random ero moments which not are enough to call an anime or manga ecchi).
Who are these "people"? Is this somewhere on AnimeSuki? Please elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
i remember until the previous years almost none complains, but now this year we have a lot about it.

now many animes/mangas which are just random fanservice are being called as ecchi or hentai and this not only here but in many others sites/forums and what is more disturb is which animes/mangas like dragon ball where we have a lot of "fanservice"(specially with buma) poeples still acting like nothing happened.

then that is the reason i created this thread to know exactly "what happened" to now the tolerance level of fanservice decreased all of that or "why peoples start to missunderstood the differences between fanservice, ecchi and hentai.
I don't know what kind of hole you crawled out of, but this bashing of anime and manga based on sexual content or themes is not recent at all. It's been going on since the 90's at the latest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
sometimes i really believe which most of the fanservice haters, who complains, never really true read or watched a anime or manga hentai, doujishin in their lives before call something hentai, or also even never read or watch true ecchi animes/mangas.
There are a lot of people like this, true. These people's opinions are also worth nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
sex appeal, erotism is part of manga/anime tradition and find mangas with 0 of it is almost like look for a needle in a haystack(ofcourse we have a good amount of it but compared with mangas/animes with it the number is very little something like 15% to 30% of works).
It's not that hard once you get used to the different kinds of anime that come out each season. It becomes easier to pick out the "clean" anime from the pack with experience. For instance, I could easily tell that Kiniro Mosaic and Tamayura from last season were going to be completely devoid of sexual content and themes.

So try to take the initiative when you get someone else into anime or manga. Either pick out the clean and innocent titles for them, or warn them about content they might find objectionable. And remember that a lot of people just don't care about that stuff anyway and will just read what appeals to them.

Also, for the sake of this community, please don't link to TVTropes. Ever since the purge on "sexual tropes" that TVTropes had in 2012, that site is the last place you want to get information on stuff like fanservice from. It's not only a strongly western-oriented website, but the community which edits the wiki is ridiculously conservative.
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Old 2013-10-20, 20:09   Link #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
The title of this thread is misleading. It seems to be asking us what the definition of these terms (fanservice/ecchi/hentai) mean, while your actual post goes on about people's perception of anime and manga. You might need a mod to clear that up for you by changing the title.
I tried to pick a more appropriate title for the content. But to be honest I was also searching the forum and there are a lot of other threads on this topic. I suspect this could end up either locked or merged at some point, but I'll wait to see where it goes...
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Old 2013-10-20, 22:06   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
i see peoples calling simple fanservice mangas as ecchi or even hentai and ofcourse ecchi being called hentai, the line between hentai and non hentai vanished, now any random pantshot or naked bath and peoples start to call hentai or ecchi(specially just fanservice mangas/anime, where we get some random ero moments which not are enough to call an anime or manga ecchi).
I'm also curious where you're seeing this. I mean Kill la Kill has the fanservice cranked to absurd levels, and WataMote was full of risque jokes, but I haven't heard anyone call them ecchi.

Quote:
then that is the reason i created this thread to know exactly "what happened" to now the tolerance level of fanservice decreased all of that or "why peoples start to missunderstood the differences between fanservice, ecchi and hentai.
The pushback against fanservice, which I agree is happening, is probably tied to larger trends in American geekdom. Over the last few years women have become increasingly vocal about the casual sexism and objectification in science fiction and fantasy (here's one recent example) and that's trickling into anime.

Quote:
sex appeal, erotism is part of manga/anime tradition and find mangas with 0 of it is almost like look for a needle in a haystack(ofcourse we have a good amount of it but compared with mangas/animes with it the number is very little something like 15% to 30% of works).
With manga there's a large portion of the publishing industry devoted to providing material for women. The existence of something like Monster Musume doesn't matter so much when things like Midnight Secretary are readily available as well. But the anime market is smaller and much more lopsided towards male interests, to the point that even stories that should appeal to both genders are full of shots that appeal to the male gaze for no good reason. And that's what a lot of people have a problem with -- women like anime at least as much as guys, but so many shows do things that exclude them.
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Old 2013-10-20, 23:07   Link #5
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Some of it is what Utsuro no Hako pointed out.

Some ecchi fanservice (not all, but some) is kinda degrading of the female characters it's applied to, and with the anime fandom adding a lot of female fans in recent years, this isn't getting an easy pass like it perhaps once did.


But beyond that, I think some of it is actually the opposite of what the OP argued. I think some of it is because a lot of us anime fans are "seasoned veterans" here. A lot of us are just tired of the old fanservice stand-bys. We've seen them a hundred bazillion times before, and we're tied of it. We're tired of "Male lead accidentally walks in on a girl in a state of undress, they both get embarrassed, she screams at him and/or socks him one". We're tired of "Male lead stumbles forward, knocks over a girl, implausibly causes her clothes to come completely undone while his open palm oh-so-conveniently falls on her boobs in a groping position".

It's not so much that people object to erotic content in general. It's that people are tried of the same-old, same-old. If ecchi-fanservice anime writers could find some relatively fresh ways to add sex appeal to what they write, I think a lot of the pushback against ecchi-fanservice would fade. But as long as ecchi-fanservice is mired in total cliches, it'll get the same sort of criticism that anything overly cliched gets.
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Old 2013-10-21, 00:18   Link #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Over the last few years women have become increasingly vocal about the casual sexism and objectification in science fiction and fantasy (here's one recent example) and that's trickling into anime.
To be fair, the magazine in the article you linked did much, *much* worse than just sexualize a female character. The column that calls female writers and editors "beauty pageant beautiful" frankly sounds extremely inappropriate and unprofessional for a magazine about fiction, and the comment about Barbie was just begging for complaints.

And on that note, I'm not sure why women in the west are discouraged from writing sci-fi when there are lots of women writing and drawing "ecchi" manga with tons of fanservice in Japan, not to mention all the female eroge artists. Culture differences?
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Old 2013-10-21, 00:25   Link #7
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Hentai is simple as porn. Removed the actual sex and genitals then you'll have ecchi. Ecchi is synonymous to fanservice IMHO, though fan service is not all or all about ecchi stuffs.
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Old 2013-10-21, 09:11   Link #8
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Fanservice is usually offensive when it's in a serious story or when the story starts taking itself seriously. Koihime Musou's (not serious) fanservice is a tree in a forest while Highschool of the Dead (always serious) and Da Capo III's (becomes serious) fanservice is a tree in a cloud; you're going to notice. I can't speak for people on the outside looking in but anyone with a decent anime background should be able to see the next boob fest a mile away. Hentai is its own thing but even "insiders" can see a line being blurred sometimes.
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Old 2013-10-22, 11:08   Link #9
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Like Triple_R said, some people are just way too tired of it.

For eg., right now I'm watching Kill La Kill and the fanservice (yes that is what it is) is quite facepalm inducing. I guess one's expectation going into a show also matter. I went into Kill La Kill expecting something and got something at the other quite different (and uptil now, its not to my liking). Its come to the point with me that, although there are elements about the show I like, the fanservice really prevents me from enjoying it. Which makes me a bit more biased against fanservice. Well, that's just my take on it.
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Old 2013-10-22, 14:10   Link #10
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I see the fanservice in Kill la Kill as satirical rather than craven pandering. The revelation in episode 3 is an example.
Spoiler:

Nakashima is a satirist at heart as even a few episodes of Oh! Edo Rocket will show. The references to Hitler and Japanese school uniforms, and the entire riff on fascism, are not just there for effect but a direct attack on Japanese cultural norms.
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Old 2013-10-22, 19:27   Link #11
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Well, the fanservice in Kill La Kill actually feels refreshing to what is usually out there, I'll give you that.

Anyways, if I'm going into the usual fanservice show...kay, I'll get some enjoyment out of it nevertheless. I know what to expect.

But the problems start when the fanservice looks really out of place in a serious story...and some fanservice (depending on how it is used) like shower scenes are okay, but scenes like "guy falls into girls boobs after tripping on non-existent pole" is pretty damn annoying. Of course, this is Animesuki and outside of AS a lot of guys enjoy those things, so hey, whatever floats your boat...

Basically, it's not a black and white issue of "fanservice bad, no fanservice good"; it's more like inserting random jokes in the middle of serious scenes that don't fit the scene at all, which is often what fanservice is; that, and female fans will obviously see it as degrading (and anime has a lot of female fans, so there.) It would probably be balanced out if we saw more male-fanservice shows (say hello to Hetalia...sorta), but those are still rare and far-between.
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Old 2013-10-22, 19:41   Link #12
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Bad fanservice sells the character as a piece of meat.

Good fanservice sells the character as a character. (Take Fujiko Mine)

Said statements are highly subjective, but if you can describe someone as more than tits and ass, you might be going somewhere.

Hentai is just something to add when regular porn doesn't cut it. Though there are some exceptions like Sono Hanabira, Kanojo x3, and whatnot.
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Old 2013-10-22, 19:56   Link #13
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.... a lot of hentai are pretty artistic and complicated.
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Old 2013-10-22, 19:59   Link #14
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... That's usually not what's on my mind though if I bother. xD Some have really nice art though.
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Old 2013-10-22, 20:02   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
... That's usually not what's on my mind though if I bother. xD Some have really nice art though.
When you watch Hentai...something's on your mind, and it's not plot.

Still, I do agree you're giving hentai writers a bit too little credit there...
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Old 2013-10-22, 20:03   Link #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedyexpress48 View Post
Of course, this is Animesuki and outside of AS a lot of guys enjoy those things, so hey, whatever floats your boat...
You might not have been intentionally implying the opposite, but just to be on the safe side, it should be made clear that there's plenty of fanservice critics outside of Anime Suki. Actually, criticism of fanservice that I read on AS is pretty mild compared to what I often read on the anime blogosphere. And I have found fanservice criticism on other anime message boards and forums.

When it comes to the really overused stuff (like the two examples I mentioned in an earlier post), I think there's now at least as many people who dislike it as there are people who like it.

There's a place for fanservice in anime, but I wouldn't excuse the more facepalm-worthy examples of it just because some people like it. At the very least, I wouldn't excuse it in a show that isn't clearly all about ecchi fanservice.
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Old 2013-10-22, 20:06   Link #17
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Most hentai that caters to fetishes are generally bad... Good hentai are those focus in one particular girl though there are some harems that are also pretty good ( I don't meant orgy).

Getting back to fan service, I had top agree that even an anime falls into ecchi category, too much fan service is pretty annoying.
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Old 2013-10-22, 20:28   Link #18
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The references to Hitler and Japanese school uniforms, and the entire riff on fascism, are not just there for effect but a direct attack on Japanese cultural norms.
I couldn't help but also see a theme like the Class Conflict, which is further shown as it is stated that successful students are moved to richer districts while the mediocre ones are stuck in the slums (Of course I will not say that the show is Marxist, which is not the intention). My brother have gone as far as comparing Ryuko to Spartacus.
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Old 2013-10-23, 00:00   Link #19
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The title of this thread is misleading. It seems to be asking us what the definition of these terms (fanservice/ecchi/hentai) mean, while your actual post goes on about people's perception of anime and manga. You might need a mod to clear that up for you by changing the title.
srry i was not too much sure about the title of the post since i wanted to talk the whole thing about fanservice/ecchi/hentai

about the differences(yes fanservice is =/= from ecchi) not all mangas/animes with fanservice are ecchi, this is the big concern i see in manga community


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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
Who are these "people"? Is this somewhere on AnimeSuki? Please elaborate.
not just here but also in others communities like mangafox and others places and i'm talking both about anime and manga in general and maybe even more in manga since in most of the cases the source of the anime is the manga

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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
I don't know what kind of hole you crawled out of, but this bashing of anime and manga based on sexual content or themes is not recent at all. It's been going on since the 90's at the latest.
but not in this level, believe me i follow some communities(at last the mos knowed) and until more recent time, the middle of last year to now, which i noticed the increase of "bashing in fanservice" and missunderstood about fanservice/ecchi and hentai, specially this year

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There are a lot of people like this, true. These people's opinions are also worth nothing.
indeed but that comments can ending missleading peoples which still too early in manga/anime word to missunderstood how the things works

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
It's not that hard once you get used to the different kinds of anime that come out each season. It becomes easier to pick out the "clean" anime from the pack with experience. For instance, I could easily tell that Kiniro Mosaic and Tamayura from last season were going to be completely devoid of sexual content and themes.
yep we have a good amount of "cleam resources to watch/read but in general the amount of resource with sexual content is much bigger than the clean which is the "common" since what really matter in japan are "boobs" :P(joke)

P.S i dont call Kiniro Mosaic a full "safe anime" since we have many "yuri" vibs here(is a light yuri anime)

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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
So try to take the initiative when you get someone else into anime or manga. Either pick out the clean and innocent titles for them, or warn them about content they might find objectionable. And remember that a lot of people just don't care about that stuff anyway and will just read what appeals to them.
for me is important when you try to bring new peoples not try to "hide" or act like this not exist, while the obvious will be otherwise, since when you bring the new people to the manga world she obivous will try to look by herself for more material and can ending finding exactly what you are try to hidden, whenever i try to bring more peoples to manga/anime world i aways make clear about "what their can find" during the jorney

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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
Also, for the sake of this community, please don't link to TVTropes. Ever since the purge on "sexual tropes" that TVTropes had in 2012, that site is the last place you want to get information on stuff like fanservice from. It's not only a strongly western-oriented website, but the community which edits the wiki is ridiculously conservative.
but tvtropers and wikipedia is exactly the onlys outside japan source which i know and what their explain about fanservice/ecchi/hentai is exactly what i learned throgh the years of reading and watching hentai, ecchi and non hentai/ecchi mangas/animes

what i'm trying to say is which excluding the pure "haters/bashs", we have peoples which just because watched some random "clean animes" or read some random "clean mangas" or because of their "western conception" of cartoon or magazines, their start to thinkin which all others will be the same or will be something very light(swinsuits at best) which is not true for japan scales(where swinsuit is at best the most light fanservice you will find) and ending interpreting wrong what is fanservice, ecchi and hentai

good exemples which i see these days some coments in kill la kill, in yozakura quartet and even in yusha ni narenakata this is in anime
now going to manga the perfect exemple was fairy tail chapter 355 omg i never see a big amount of runt like that, wtf this means which now the mangaka is forced only to do what the fanservice/ecchi haters wanting, he can't draw a full fun fanservice chapter which will be a mountain of complains, this make goes what??? i see a lot of "this is porn" fu*** mashima your freaking porn, Ft now is a hentai manga( and Ft is not even a ecchi manga, perhaps by the standards of some countries but not for japan or even here on brazil ).

if you are looking for a clean anime/manga fine but in the moment where you stuck in a manga where fanservice and ecchi can be found then if you still reading/watching is not the animation team or mangaka fault or even japan fault but you own fault to keep following the work.


and the worst is how peoples missunderstood the difference between the 3 categories

fanservice manga is when we have some random few chapters or episodes focused on fanservice(naked baths, some random boobs appear here and there or pants shots) or some little random "poses"(short skirts, pants, boobs)

ecchi is when part of the plot is focus on the erotism is when the big amount of the anime episodes or mangas chapters aways try to focus on naked moments, pantsshots, grab boobs and others thnings, when we have many moments of double entender, ecchi is amount, quality and focus of fanservice
e.g: high school dxd, yusha ni narenakata, wakura romanze, kill la kill and others where the anime or manga is just a excuse to expose guys or girls in some erotic ways to make "money"

and finally hentai, where we have the real "perv" where i can say which if peoples call things like what happen in mangas or animes like ft or kenish hentai, then what is happen in true hentais we gonna classify as?(unimaginable? impossible?/unreal?(ofcourse some things like tentacles are unreal lol but i think you get what i want to say).

animes mangas like yozakura quartet or mangas likes FT where we have a a good amount off fanservice, the way which their are throwed is not enough to call "ecchi" or even hentai(in ft case)

Spoiler for just to reduce the wall size:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You might not have been intentionally implying the opposite, but just to be on the safe side, it should be made clear that there's plenty of fanservice critics outside of Anime Suki. Actually, criticism of fanservice that I read on AS is pretty mild compared to what I often read on the anime blogosphere. And I have found fanservice criticism on other anime message boards and forums.
exactly to be fair, here on AS is the place where i see the most "level of tolerance" when you go outside omg, the numbers goes crazy in others sites.
ps: again sorry for bad english

Last edited by ellessarr; 2013-10-23 at 00:39.
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Old 2013-10-23, 01:31   Link #20
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Half of this post made no sense at all, but as for the rest...
Spoiler for long winded quote:


Ugh. I'll reply to the rest of this tomorrow...I need to do other crap.
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