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Old 2013-10-23, 12:30   Link #1
risingstar3110
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Australia
I need some encouragement...

Really sorry, guys, i don't want to make a whole new thread for this, but i'm really in a pinch right now...

My very-unresonable boss want to adopt a device into my project. He knows very little about it, but my senior who worked with it before has been telling me that:
  • it's incredibly unstable,
  • even if i can get it to run it really hard and time-consumed to carry out maintenance, and i have very little expertise on it
  • my project has no use for it yet
  • if i adopt it, I will be in full responsibility if anything happen to it instead of my boss
Basically it's an disaster to say yes to it. I have been convincing him that we had no use for it yet, and it won't be a good idea to use it now when we absolutely have no plan what to do with it. But every time he either stated that he know what he is doing because he's more experienced than me, or implied that it was just because I'm lazy that why i don't want to take this "extra work". (I found no logic whatsoever for his decision, other than it's possible that he agreed with another party to take it in. Yes, i don't trust him and think this is for his personal gain)


Long story short: I will have a showdown with my boss within the next few days about it. I know that the logical choice is to reject or at least state that i won't adopt this device no matter what, or until i had a plan for it next year. But it may make our relationship turns sour, and there's that part in me afraid that i may be dropped from the team, or get fired over it. Nonetheless, I had no doubt that for my own good, i needed to man up and stand my ground, or at least only flexible for a certain degree (and hope my boss will found the middle ground reasonable), so i really needed your words of encouragement, or any story from you guys to inspire and strengthen my will in this situation.
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Old 2013-10-23, 13:00   Link #2
SaintessHeart
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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There is this book called "Games People Play" by Eric Berne. Turn to page 125 and try that, if you gather enough courage to say no.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-23, 13:28   Link #3
Ithekro
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Has your boss said what he expects this device to do and what it would provide to your project? If he can't then you have no logical reason to even consider adding the device into your project.
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Old 2013-10-23, 14:43   Link #4
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Has your boss said what he expects this device to do and what it would provide to your project? If he can't then you have no logical reason to even consider adding the device into your project.
The problem is that his boss is playing the authority game, which means there are two outcomes -

1. He is a thin-skinned egomaniac that will flip if we prove him wrong.
2. His head is stuffed with the light out of his bum and needs a little knock on the head.

1 is the risk Star is taking. I don't know the boss so I can't say much; but the last two times I encounter such things like that I end up submitting my resignation letter during its implementation phase; both of them are type 1s.

The only way I see out is this :

Quote:
it's incredibly unstable,
even if i can get it to run it really hard and time-consumed to carry out maintenance, and i have very little expertise on it
Quote the amount of man hours lost in its maintenance and that he has little expertise in it, and get that colleague to back him up. Then say that it's stability would mean that keeping tabs on it regularly would cost time and money.

Then again, if the device has no use in a project, it means that

1. Its function is already substituted by another device or workplan
2. Forced integration into the project would result in production of unnecessary stuff, reducing efficiency of workflow.

Other than that, I don't really know anything else given the lack of details.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2013-10-23 at 14:54.
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Old 2013-10-23, 15:37   Link #5
EscapeReality
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If you are absolutely sure that you're in the right with your decision,

You could:
1. Ignore his suggestions (not an appealing choice)
2. Follow his plan (also not appealing)
3. Convince him through logic (which you said had not worked so far).

When two parties are riled up, it's possible that they're letting their anger/pride/ego override their ration. It's best that you reevaluate to see if not putting in the device is truly beneficial to the good of the project. If you are still convinced, you could try to find him when he's in a better mood; he might be more inclined to compromise then. Try to not be too confrontational.

If you are bent on ignoring his words, know that your conscience is important.
Thoreau said (and you may not agree with him):
"The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right."
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Old 2013-10-23, 18:39   Link #6
NightbatŪ
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Rule #1

if your boss tells you to do something, you do it

Rule #2

if something goes wrong, without any reservations, put the blame on the guy responsible for it



Soo,...
Taking these 2 simple rules into account
you're gonna use the gizmo
when it blows up, blame it on the guy who insisted on it being used
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Old 2013-10-23, 21:12   Link #7
risingstar3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Has your boss said what he expects this device to do and what it would provide to your project? If he can't then you have no logical reason to even consider adding the device into your project.
He keep insist to adopt it now and I can use in the future if I ever needed. That assume that I ever needed it, and based on the senior guy experience, it gonna take a lot of my time each month to install land keep it maintenance for stable running. Means it's possible that my current and near future projects may be delayed and I will be in all responsible so for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The problem is that his boss is playiang the authority game, which means there are two outcomes -

1. He is a thin-skinned egomaniac that will flip if we prove him wrong.
2. His head is stuffed with the light out of his bum and needs a little knock on the head.

1 is the risk Star is taking. I don't know the boss so I can't say much; but the last two times I encounter such things like that I end up submitting my resignation letter during its implementation phase; both of them are type 1s.
I think egomaniac is the most likely answer here. The guy who joined the company in the same time with me questioned him once on a really basic thing, and he flipped out on that dude. The college guy ended up quitting his positions.

I really don't know how my boss managed to stay at his post, as every project under him did not finish on time, and then he just blame whoever in charge (most of my senior bar2) of not being capable to get it done on time. The senior told me that because he kept getting them extra tasks that from outside look, may be related, but ended up was like a mini independent project by itself. Sort of like now.

Man I would have never worked under this guy have I know him being such asshole. It was just back then I was too desperate for job, and now I have been so deep on my current project that unless he fire me, I would have to stay till the end (or wasted my 1 year for nothing)

I think the key is like EscapeReality stated, try to get him compromising without too confrontal. But get the right mix could be hard

@nightbat: I would open a champagne if it ever blowed up. But apparently it only would break down from time to time and require you spend huge amount of time and resources to fix it up.
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Last edited by risingstar3110; 2013-10-23 at 21:29.
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Old 2013-10-23, 22:44   Link #8
SaintessHeart
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Well another Type 1. Is this an SME which he runs the entire company?

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
@nightbat: I would open a champagne if it ever blowed up. But apparently it only would break down from time to time and require you spend huge amount of time and resources to fix it up.
That is the only advantage I see. Use man-hours and resources wasted in keeping that thing running should the thing break down on a frequent basis, and keep a log book that he knows of but don't know where you keep it. Then again, if you can convince him that the utility is already substituted by another device, it is even better.

Back in the army we have this form called "Receipt of Maintenance"; once it hit a certain value per year we condemn the firearm, or at a certain percentage of that value we return it to the armourer. It is often shoved into faces of young officers who have more distinctions than brains by the people under them; a fantastic egobuster that works whether enemity is generated or not.

Then again, I suggest you PM willx on it. He is an expert in dealing with liquidation, most likely he had met more morons than any of us here. He should be able to give proper advice on how to deal with the hard-headed ones.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2013-10-23 at 22:57.
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Old 2013-10-23, 23:48   Link #9
Irenicus
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^Agreed with Saintess up there. Whatever choice you go with (including Nightbat's put-a-middle-finger-in-it plan), don't forget:

Document, document, document.

Document everything. Document your objections, your reasons for it, how you conveyed it, when and where. Document your suffering with the device -- if you decide to back down. Keep the tone neutral, time logs and formal notices instead of grievances. And keep your records safe, backed up outside of the business system in your home PC + personal dropbox or something. Whether you're butting heads with the boss or lower your head and just suck it up, if and when shit blows up, project delayed, or the device kills someone, he will blame you. And you will need every one of those records to be able to tell him to fuck the fuck off and defend your professional reputation.

You've heard enough to know this kind of guy is not going to play fair, and you do not know period if you have any allies you can trust among your colleague to back you up. Only your records can.

Last edited by Irenicus; 2013-10-24 at 00:01.
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Old 2013-10-23, 23:52   Link #10
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
^Agreed with Saintess up there. Whatever choice you go with (including Nightbat's put-a-middle-finger-in-it plan), don't forget:

Document, document, document.

Document everything. Document your objections, your reasons for it, how you conveyed it, when and where. Document your suffering with the device -- if you decide to back down. Keep the tone neutral, time logs and formal notices instead of grievances. And keep your records safe, backed up outside of the business system in your home PC + personal dropbox or something. Whether you're butting heads with the boss or lower your head and just suck it up, if and when shit blows up, project delayed, or the device kills someone, he will blame you. And you will need every one of those records to be able to tell him to fuck the fuck off and defend your professional reputation.

You've heard enough to know kind of guy is not going to play fair, and you do not know period if you have any allies you can trust among your colleague to back you up. Only your records can.
Email and create archive folders is another way. Though I don't favour digital copies of a document because the system can be hacked and removed; especially it is by a higher up.

If that guy is running the whole company, then it is time to find another job.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-24, 00:00   Link #11
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Email and create archive folders is another way. Though I don't favour digital copies of a document because the system can be hacked and removed; especially it is by a higher up.
That's why it's in your personal dropbox.

Unless risingstar is working in a company with strict and well-enforced data safety procedures -- most SMEs aren't -- or an industry with lots of trade secret issues (Australia so...mining? lol), in which case, there's another risk factor in play and more discretion may be required.
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Old 2013-10-24, 00:27   Link #12
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
That's why it's in your personal dropbox.

Unless risingstar is working in a company with strict and well-enforced data safety procedures -- most SMEs aren't -- or an industry with lots of trade secret issues (Australia so...mining? lol), in which case, there's another risk factor in play and more discretion may be required.
What I am actually looking into, from my experience as a bottomfeeder, is that the boss might play a "I haven't seen these records before, so they must be doctored!" card. However, letting him know of the records means that he will seek ways to destroy it once shit hits the fan.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-24, 04:05   Link #13
LeoXiao
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Don't even try to reason with him, since you've already determined that he's in this for personal gain. Accept what he says, but undermine the decision whenever you can. If it's really as terrible to run as you say, you can learn more about it, test it out, and then once you get crappy results, make a report saying that adoption of the device is impossible due to xyz specific reasons. And yes, do document all this stuff.
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Old 2013-10-24, 05:16   Link #14
risingstar3110
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Thank. He is like a branch... Or more like department manager so he does have to answer up. I means with all those record of delayed projects and guy quitting and etc... He won't come out unscratched if he fire me. I probably can get some back at him too ( start with documenting everything as you suggested). The way I see it he probably will have to yield if things heat up too much as it gonna be mutual destruction.


But I means ideally is still for me to keep working, hang in there. Keep the relationship neutral, and hope in few years time, there will be a shuffle and I can get out of there. On the other hand I also don't want to yield too much and waste my time, efforts, and miss out weekend, holidays and stuffs for some stupid device that both I and that guy has no uses yet (no doubt that it will impact on my current project as well). The senior guy I mentioned before sucked it up and it did him really bad so I really don't want to follow that path. I means he then started to visit psychological counseling, and was missing out weekends and public holiday on basis, and were saying about how that one time when that stupid thing broke down, he was driving home and even thought about running over the edge of the bridge just to escape from it.
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Last edited by risingstar3110; 2013-10-24 at 07:51.
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Old 2013-10-24, 08:42   Link #15
risingstar3110
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I'm really really sorry for this, but can i just make this double post?? Just in case this thread ends here?

I'm not superstition. But I really need a lot of luck (and confidences) right now. And with the thread going to end at 13 replies, and tomorrow is Friday..... I didn't want to make it's a bad luck sign
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Old 2013-10-24, 09:05   Link #16
frivolity
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How about emailing the boss, setting out the reasons why you are strongly against his plan, and if he insists on implementing it, then you will do so, but he will have to take responsibility for anything that goes wrong.
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Old 2013-10-24, 09:33   Link #17
risingstar3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
How about emailing the boss, setting out the reasons why you are strongly against his plan, and if he insists on implementing it, then you will do so, but he will have to take responsibility for anything that goes wrong.
It's a good idea normally. But this guy is shameless when it comes to take responsibility.

There was one time when he forgot to send up a report. It is nothing serious as he has just been back from a trip and he could simply explain that the (more important ) trip distracted him so he will fix it up and send in right away. Instead, he reported that it was because i didn't send him one of the file (he want the pdf version, while i sent him the doc version of the same file) which clearly does not relate. But that still make it sounds like i was mostly my fault. The incident is small so i let it passed, but i will never forget how he threw me down the bus to save his hide that time.

It's simply impossible to make this guy responsible if i accept his request, i just know that it is impossible.
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Old 2013-10-24, 10:22   Link #18
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
It's a good idea normally. But this guy is shameless when it comes to take responsibility.

There was one time when he forgot to send up a report. It is nothing serious as he has just been back from a trip and he could simply explain that the (more important ) trip distracted him so he will fix it up and send in right away. Instead, he reported that it was because i didn't send him one of the file (he want the pdf version, while i sent him the doc version of the same file) which clearly does not relate. But that still make it sounds like i was mostly my fault. The incident is small so i let it passed, but i will never forget how he threw me down the bus to save his hide that time.

It's simply impossible to make this guy responsible if i accept his request, i just know that it is impossible.
Tell him straight up that you think this is unstable and you have little experience working with it, therefore that you are not confident in including it in your project. Quote your colleague.

Then tell him that you will be keeping a log of this because you feel that it is your duty to ensure the project runs smoothly, so if the breakdowns due to the device is too frequent, be it due to lack of experience or other details with it, ask him if you can approach him for advice. Keep pestering him with the log book until he explodes.

Finally, look for another job. And forward it to HR if he blows a volcano; enjoy the fireworks.

In short, play the pandering victim card. It is pathetic to do so, but it is probably the only card you can play as a bottom in this scenario.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-24, 11:02   Link #19
risingstar3110
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
1) Tell him straight up that you think this is unstable and you have little experience working with it, therefore that you are not confident in including it in your project. Quote your colleague.

2) Then tell him that you will be keeping a log of this because you feel that it is your duty to ensure the project runs smoothly, so if the breakdowns due to the device is too frequent, be it due to lack of experience or other details with it, ask him if you can approach him for advice. Keep pestering him with the log book until he explodes.

3) Finally, look for another job. And forward it to HR if he blows a volcano; enjoy the fireworks.

In short, play the pandering victim card. It is pathetic to do so, but it is probably the only card you can play as a bottom in this scenario.
The first point, i definitely will do it, now you say it. Probably include that "i can't include it in my project until i can plan out how using it can benefit my work, which at this stage i can't see any benefits"

The second point however, if i say that, i think he will just throw that senior guy in 'to help me out' as that guy 'experienced in working with it before'. If things do not work out, he will either blame one of us, if not both for it. So I will rather stick to the first.

On the third, honestly, I would prefer to hang on for another year, to finish this project and wait for that personnel shuffle. Too demoralised if this job would end due to this (will feel like i ran away from problem too).
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Old 2013-10-24, 11:03   Link #20
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
The first point, i definitely will do it, now you say it.

The second point however, i think he will just throw that senior guy in "to help me out" as that guy "experienced in working with it before". If things do not work out, he will either blame one of us, if not both for it. So I will rather stick to the first.
Talk to that senior guy first and see how keen he is on helping you out. If he isn't then don't mention him.

Quote:
On the third, honestly, I would prefer to hang on for another year, to finish this project and wait for that personnel shuffle. Too demoralised if this job would end due to this (felt like i ran away from problem too).
Ask yourself these 3 questions :

Can you do anything about the problem?
Is the problem affecting the way your work and your job prospects?
If it is no to the first and yes to the second, how would it be that you are running away from the problem?
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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