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Old 2013-11-07, 14:13   Link #21
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
And where is the dere-ness that usually comes after the tsun-ness? the dere-ness is so subtly implied to nullify the pay-off this kind of dynamics should provide.
Ah the "dere-ness" is definitely there. In the example I gave, the character's portrayal at the end is completely dere-dere, complete with profuse blushing, really obvious deflection, and the (masked) invitation for continued closeness. Hence the protagonist's own massive grinning and comment about her cuteness. It's just... a bit veiled? It's almost like some sort of secret language and you have to be able to translate between the action and what is really being implied.

This sort of "translation" was actually brought up explicitly in another example.
Spoiler for Mayoi Neko Overrun:
As for whether or not they're a tsundere by definition, I think the key defining factor is the gap between their true feelings and their actions towards the object of their affection. In that sense, this is the same thing that separates a "yandere" character from someone who otherwise has a proclivity towards violence. The unique nature of the relationship the character has with their beloved is what fits them into the category; their attitude towards others may bear some similarities (a character who is hot-blooded and passionate in general isn't going to limit that only to one person), but the relationship with the object of their affection stands apart.
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Old 2013-11-07, 23:44   Link #22
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
I really hate yandere because they make women look so weak and pathetic...the poster children of anti-feminism(well, I hate male yandere too because desperate men are like the biggest turn-off ever lol) but I LOVE both female and male tsundere characters like crazy.

To make a good tsundere is to balance the tsun and the dere. Don't have too much "tsun"...or you get Kirino. >_> It is also best to show the tsundere's "tsun" through cold words instead of constant merciless violence. (this is why male tsundere are generally more likable than the female ones) And of course, you need to develop your tsundere properly. They shouldn't flip-flop once you have developed them and brought out the dere. In little ways that's fine but nothing really jarring that would make you go "wtf where did that character development go!?"
Come to think about it, there's like zero yanderes I like.

And yes, I think it's best for harsh to not necessarily be excessively violent as per the stereotype. Personally, I prefer more of a hostile "grumpiness" rather than outright rage though sometimes that is understandable too.

As for flip flopping, that's also another frequent killer, though I guess it's understandable given if there's certain triggers that causes people to regress. Human progress tends to be not a linear path. Still, I feel if a show just builds too strongly on the "harsh" side of gags then it's problematic when development occurs and then suddenly we don't know what to do.

But yea, I still would never tolerate excessive tsun too. I just don't buy that "she hits him a lot but really loves him but then this crap happens over and over again". I mean imagine it being gender flipped-- some guy beats up some girl on a regular basis but it's ok because he apologizes but it's because he loves her!!! That'd be sorta vomit inducing.

Though personally this is because I think that regardless of -dere, the - side is something to be grown out of, well, at least to people they care about. It's fine if they remain cold or harsh towards others, if they really want to keep that around.
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Old 2013-11-09, 00:01   Link #23
Chiibi
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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
So when you think inkblot tsunderes, who comes to mind? KugiRie. Specifically her characters Louise and Taiga, and to a lesser extent Shana (she's not nearly as irrational or violent, but it's there) often come to mind. There's a reason why these characters are the Godwin's Law of anime character discussions. You can't talk about tsunderes without invoking KugiRie, and that's because for many these characters define tsundere. The issue is that these characters are in very confused shows. Shana, Toradora!, and Zero no Tsukaima wantonly flip the line of drama and 'comedy'. The tsundere in these shows is not comic relief. Shockingly, it's a part of the story. These characters are written with their awkwardness and complete inability to be anything but grating and horrible people as part of the drama of the show. The only comic relief here is that when I'm done I'm going to smash my head against a wall with gusto.

So as Relentless said, context. Additionally, there's a line that need not be crossed (It looks a lot like Taiga. Imagine that!)

Well, actually I really like KugiRie tsunderes a lot. My favorite female tsundere is Aria H. Kanzaki. And yeah, they're pretty flawed tsundere and their violent outbursts can annoy me sometimes but Shana, Taiga, Louise, Nagi, and Aria all have things about their characters that I really like too.
I'll explain this with Aria.
Spoiler for Hidan No Aria:

I'll stop there but I seriously do like everything about Aria, save her violent snapping from time to time...but even those scenes aren't all that terrible.

My idea of a bad/inkblot tsundere?
Honestly the only thing that keeps me from hating Kirino is her otaku side. She simply just goes too far. >_> Kyousuke bends over backwards for her constantly and she rarely showed any gratitude besides a quiet "thank you" until the very end of each season.

My friend Jess really likes Taiga, Aria, Shana, and even Louise but she cannot stand Kirino. She refuses to watch past Oreimo's first episode; that's how much she despises her. lol
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Old 2013-11-09, 02:08   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
But yea, I still would never tolerate excessive tsun too. I just don't buy that "she hits him a lot but really loves him but then this crap happens over and over again". I mean imagine it being gender flipped-- some guy beats up some girl on a regular basis but it's ok because he apologizes but it's because he loves her!!! That'd be sorta vomit inducing.
I know right away by saying this that it's going to immediately open the door to a lot of retorts and counter-arguments, but at least I hope you'll try to hear it out.

I am completely opposed to domestic violence in every way, and don't think it's okay for anyone of either gender to beat anyone, let alone someone they love. However, I also have siblings, and I completely remember growing up that sometimes things can get a bit "violent" in the midst of a fight: slaps, shoving, pulling hair, rough-housing, and so on. Sometimes as a result, people do get hurt. This is particularly the case with children, but can also extend through the teenage years (the setting for many anime). And this is the way a lot of "tsundere violence" feels to me. It's childish lashing out in ways that can sometimes "hurt", and certainly shouldn't be condoned, but it feels a lot more like siblings pulling each other's hair than some sort of actual threat (notwithstanding cases where they really are siblings too). I realize that sometimes anime like to ratchet up the portrayal to seem more "impactful" (and thus make the viewer think "oh, that's gotta hurt"), but in the context of the story typically the tsundere heroine's outbursts are meant more to accentuate the sharp contrast between action and true feeling. And within the context of anime/manga/etc. I can accept this dichotomy.

As for the gender double-standard, I think you are partly right. But I would also note that this is why most of the stories that deal with this element tend to accentuate the difference between the tsundere heroine and the subject of her affection, who is usually bigger, older, and/or clearly stronger even if they don't necessarily show it. This is why in many of the famous examples, the heroine's diminutive size is an issue (as mentioned by Chiibi). Even though I completely realize that it's not the same, to me a reverse-gender equivalent would be a sort of "jerk with a heart of gold" model where the guy is constantly teasing his childhood friend or giving her a hard time (seemingly putting her down in front of others, etc.), but deep down he's fiercely loyal to her and very much in love (doesn't let anyone else get close to her), and is just using his attitude to cover it up. I realize this example avoids violence, but due to the double-standard, I think that's the easier way to portray the equivalent thing when the genders are reversed and have the audiences "get it". Many people would still condemn the male hero as a "jerk" in that example, and would argue that the heroine deserves better than a guy who seems to put her down all the time... but actually, this isn't such an uncommon angle in shoujo manga.

Like I said at the start, I know even in saying this that there are some parts of this explanation that don't necessarily hold up, particularly if you're trying to say that the standards we apply to "2D" should line up with our standards in "3D". (That would become an issue all the moreso if we started talking about yandere, of course.) But I think that sort of reflects the spirit in which these characters are supposed to be taken. The extent of the portrayal is obviously not condonable, but you can still appreciate the characters for other reasons in spite of these aspects that obviously would not be appropriate in real life. People who admire yandere characters, for example, don't necessarily have a real-life death wish (unless at the hands of a cute anime character? ), but they can still enjoy these characters in anime due to some of the character dynamics that result. And thus, they could still be "good characters", despite these non-condonable traits.
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Old 2013-11-09, 04:18   Link #25
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Well, actually I really like KugiRie tsunderes a lot. My favorite female tsundere is Aria H. Kanzaki. And yeah, they're pretty flawed tsundere and their violent outbursts can annoy me sometimes but Shana, Taiga, Louise, Nagi, and Aria all have things about their characters that I really like too.
I'll explain this with Aria.
I just want to state, for the record, that I actually liked Hidan no Aria and I thought that Aria was a great tsundere because she didn't display the overblown abuse of her predecessors. Shana too is the exception to the KugiRie rule. It's Taiga and Louise that are the very notable detractors, and it appears that Taiga is her most notable tsundere role right now.

It's not to say that (with the exception of Taiga), they don't have their likable moments. Those moments typically only come when they decide to break down their barriers and have a heart-to-heart moment. So, like, once a season. The nice thing about Aria was that she was prone to those moments of honesty far more frequently. She would tell her story and speak her mind between her rarer bouts of tsuny destruction. When characters give serious dialogue with the same frequency as solar eclipses it's hard to find them endearing. These characters are supposed to be part of the story and I want to know about them sooner, rather than at the end. I prefer them to be involved beyond being some queen on a pedestal intended to be the endgame for the hero. A character should be part of the story, not the endgame.

Quote:
My idea of a bad/inkblot tsundere?
Honestly the only thing that keeps me from hating Kirino is her otaku side. She simply just goes too far. >_> Kyousuke bends over backwards for her constantly and she rarely showed any gratitude besides a quiet "thank you" until the very end of each season.
I liked Oreimo but I honestly hated Kirino, and that's rare for me. Kirino isn't such a horrid character and she's not completely and entirely unlikable, but over three seasons she just becomes so infuriating in how little she really changes. She maintains this same, very grating personality throughout with very minor change. The only time any growth is reflected is when she breaks down her barriers to have a moment. Beyond that, it's her usual antics, and they just get so old. It doesn't help that literally every other female character, even the most violent of the non-Kirino group, is still saintly by comparison.
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Old 2013-11-09, 10:17   Link #26
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Not a big fan of the Yandare trope. The only two I can think of that worked for me was Rena in Higurashi (because it fit the series) & Asakura in Haruhi (because she was a great villain).


I am a fan of the Tsundere trope both in male & female characters. However I don't like when it is over the top like the Rie variety. It can be part of the character but shouldn't define them.

In that sense I like the Rumiko Takahashi or more classic variety. I think Aoba from Cross Game is another good example. Also I suppose it wasn't romance based but I consider Isako from Dennou Coil Tsundere and she is also a favorite character.

As for male Tsunderes there are too many I like: Kyo from Fruits Basket & Fakir from Princess Tutu are my favorites I think.

Edit: Already mentioned but yeah Kurisu is another great one. And I just thought of Ringo from Penguindrum who at different points in the story was both a Tsundere & Yandere and she was another fantastic character.
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Old 2013-11-09, 14:59   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Not a big fan of the Yandare trope. The only two I can think of that worked for me was Rena in Higurashi (because it fit the series) & Asakura in Haruhi (because she was a great villain).
I agree with these. I don't mind yandere when they're not obsessing over a person. If they're just plain batshit crazy towards everyone, that's fine.
I also like Lucy and Shiro too....because their psychotic behavior comes from trauma and not because they're so in love with a guy. They're tragic characters but not needy ones.

Quote:
As for male Tsunderes there are too many I like: Kyo from Fruits Basket & Fakir from Princess Tutu are my favorites I think.
Takuto from Full Moon really beats out Kyou for me because of the two temperamental catboys, he's more affectionate and less hostile. I'd feel very safe around Takuto...but Kyou's violent tendencies are a bit intimidating.
Actually, it's all Takuto's fault that I'm obsessed with tsundere in the first place.

Fakir is a very unusual male tsundere because most of the time, he's so....QUIET, mature, and composed. Normally male tsundere are much louder, childish, and easily rattled. But then again, everything about Tutu is unique, so its characters are no exception.
And he's a wonderful character.
I'd surely like to see another guy like him in the future. :3
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Old 2013-11-09, 15:24   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Takuto from Full Moon really beats out Kyou for me because of the two temperamental catboys, he's more affectionate and less hostile. I'd feel very safe around Takuto...but Kyou's violent tendencies are a bit intimidating.3
Kyou is plenty affectionate and is not necessarily hostile toward Tohru (except perhaps very early on).

Of course most of Kyou's positive character development happens right where the anime ends.
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Old 2013-11-09, 15:53   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
But yea, I still would never tolerate excessive tsun too. I just don't buy that "she hits him a lot but really loves him but then this crap happens over and over again". I mean imagine it being gender flipped-- some guy beats up some girl on a regular basis but it's ok because he apologizes but it's because he loves her!!! That'd be sorta vomit inducing.
There was a lot of hate towards Chiaki of Nodame Cantabile for his "domestic violence" against Nodame, despite it being indisputably a gag and Nodame never really hurt, like, ever.

To put it in perspective, Chiaki only "hits" Nodame as a tsukkomi move on her, but never ever when he has problems in his music career/life/whatever and take it out on her or something that would have justified the level of discomfort expressed.

Yes, people are really very uncomfortable with male tsunderes who give "Naru punches."

Ironically, there's also a market in the shoujo manga field for the type of handsome guys who emotionally manipulate and sexually assault female MCs and get away with it because he's so hawt and he has trouble expressing his feelings/has a troubled past/his dog died.
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Old 2013-11-09, 16:22   Link #30
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There was a lot of hate towards Chiaki of Nodame Cantabile for his "domestic violence" against Nodame, despite it being indisputably a gag and Nodame never really hurt, like, ever.

To put it in perspective, Chiaki only "hits" Nodame as a tsukkomi move on her, but never ever when he has problems in his music career/life/whatever and take it out on her or something that would have justified the level of discomfort expressed.
Yeah this is exactly how I saw Chiaki/Nodame which is why it personally never bothered me. Chiaki's main issue is he is possibly the least romantic guy ever. lol

Chiaki also arguably changed in personality & habits way more than Nodame. Nodame became more serious about music but in the end she was the same crazy lovable Nodame. Whereas Chiaki as he himself said entered the Hentai forest.

Then again I am also not bothered when female characters hit male characters as long as its used as a gag.

Of course I don't think there is anything funny about real domestic abuse but I think this type of gag is just meant to be an exaggerated expression of the characters feelings and frustrations.


edit: @ Chiibi thinking about it Fakir might be more the "jerk with a heart of gold" than a true blue tsundere. I admit that the two tropes (are what I like about that) are somewhat similar to me.
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Old 2013-11-09, 16:29   Link #31
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I don't really know about yandere but tsundere can be really fun when they are trying to really hard to say that they don't care and fail terribly (actions say more than words, don't they?). Almost like a satire of the concept.
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Old 2013-11-09, 22:53   Link #32
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Kyou is plenty affectionate and is not necessarily hostile toward Tohru (except perhaps very early on).
No, I know towards Tooru, he's all right. I mean towards other people, he's kinda dangerous. I remember in the beginning of the manga, a class girl touched his arm and he spazzed and started to twist her arm which made her cry in pain.
That scene rubbed me the wrong way, slightly. I fully support him being with Tooru...but he comes off as a person who would be hard to approach in real life.

I'm telling ya, if you haven't seen Full Moon Wo Sagashite, you would love Takuto, I bet. ^^I joke that he wrote the "How To Be Tsundere: Male Version" guidebook.
If you name every single trait a tsundere possesses, he's got it. also he is really adorable and hot.

Quote:
edit: @ Chiibi thinking about it Fakir might be more the "jerk with a heart of gold" than a true blue tsundere. I admit that the two tropes (are what I like about that) are somewhat similar to me.
Honestly, it's pretty hard to tell the difference. I think what may separate them is the element of honesty. A character could be honest and still act jerkish. One example I can think of would be (another) Chiaki from Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne. Chiaki acts like perv around girls and says things that piss people off so one would label him "jerk". But he's actually a good person during a serious situation and he's honest about being a good person, thus he's not tsundere.


On the other hand, tsundere...honesty.. LOL WHAT'S THAT. And I just love this about tsundere. What I find so irresistible about them is that they seem so emotionally vulnerable and this is cute. They are frightened or embarrassed to show their soft side because they think they won't be accepted by others or get made fun of. So they put on this "I'm tough, RAWR" facade to protect themselves. Like a wild kitten being cornered, that is their defense mechanism. Definitely the reason why tsundere (both male and female) are associated with cats so much. All they need is ONE person to be nice to them and accept the true them....and they are putty in that someone's hands. Which is why I'm a huge fan of the tsundere character Xgoody-goody character pairing. It just works so incredibly well that it never gets old!
Tsundere girlx tsundere guy is also tons of fun too. But frustrating sometimes. XD
JUST ADMIT YOU LOVE EACH OTHER, LITTLE BRATS!
lol

Oh sorry, I got off track. Fakir...yes...well I do think Fakir is tsundere, just for the fact that he starts off cold and gradually warms up, mostly thanks to Ahiru/Duck. Which is pretty much the classic definition. We don't see him hide things all that much but I'm fairly certain that if Ahiru asked him if he liked her, he'd turn red and mutter in unconvincing denial.

........just for the hell of it, I'll make a tsundere checklist. Should help in finding out if a character is one for those who aren't sure.
Spoiler:

I'd say that if at least five of these traits apply to your character, he/she is a tsundere.
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Old 2013-11-10, 00:31   Link #33
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When it comes to the more physically violent tsunderes/yanderes, I think a viewer's appreciation for them will probably be tied into their appreciation (or lack thereof) for slapstick comedy in general.

Let's face it - One of the main roles of a lot of tsunderes is to deliver slapstick comedy. Even if I don't like it, I do get it. Most tsundere "abuse" is meant to make people go "ha ha!"

Some people find it funny, some people don't. Some people find it funny up to a point, then it just gets disturbing or creepy. And a lot of it can come down to execution - the more realistic-looking the slapstick comedy is, the more likely it is to disturb or upset viewers, I think.

I still vividly remember the episode that made me drop Live Hina. In that one episode, there were four separate scenes of Naru sending Keitaro into the stratosphere. That was it, I was done. That's more tsundere-based slapstick comedy than I could take.
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Old 2013-11-10, 00:35   Link #34
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So, how many people here think that Tsundere and Yandere are abomination and have to be removed?

And what about Kuudere or Dandere?
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Old 2013-11-10, 00:37   Link #35
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And what about Kuudere or Dandere?
I tend to like Kuuderes. They tend to round out casts very nicely. They also usually have great style and solid dialogue.
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Old 2013-11-10, 01:31   Link #36
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Yandere-Gasai Yuno
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Old 2013-11-10, 09:13   Link #37
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One of the most important part of Love is Acceptance and Compassion. Accept and Understand who you are, who your lover are. And to me, Tsundere and Yandere don't have both of those thing - for example, most of the girls in Infinite Stratos.
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Old 2013-11-10, 17:07   Link #38
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And what about Kuudere or Dandere?
Kuudere are fine. Um....what's a dandere?
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Old 2013-11-10, 19:20   Link #39
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Kuuderes and danderes are similar. A kuudere is closer to being cold and expressionless, whereas a dandere is merely shy and/or quiet (but capable of blooming into someone much more 'normal' and expressive when around an individual or group that they're close to. Kuuderes are more perpetually emotionally constipated). Dandere is more of a niche term that never really caught on unlike the much more commonplace tsundere, yandere, and kuudere. To use Rozen Maiden 2013 as an example (since that's one of the shows listed in your profile), Suigintou could qualify as a kuudere while Souseiseki would be a dandere.
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Old 2013-11-10, 19:46   Link #40
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Opinion on HimeDere (Princess), KamiDere (God) and MayaDere (Your Former Killer)?
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