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Old 2013-11-16, 02:04   Link #1
bahamut zero
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Will 4K have an impact on the fansub-scene?

I read that Japan wants to start broadcasting anime in this new high resolution format in 2015, you guys think fansubs will adopt to this or just stay with he old resolutions?
It would also be interesting to know if CR has any plans with 4K.
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Old 2013-11-16, 05:10   Link #2
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The studios are not even producing at the full HD resolutions. A 1080p broadcast/encode of anime today has more pixels encoded than were original drawn or rendered. Until they start producing material in higher source resolution than that there's no advantage to going higher. (And also 1080p streams/downloads are waste of bandwidth.)
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Old 2013-11-16, 12:29   Link #3
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I don't think fansubbers will be able to capture the 4K broadcasts for a good while because there definitely is a new copy protection scheme coming along with it. Not to mention, first 4K channels probably aren't even going to air anime. Fansubbing might die off completely before you see first genuine 4K encodes anyway.

Last edited by 8426753; 2013-11-16 at 12:40.
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Old 2013-11-17, 12:02   Link #4
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My guess is that Japan's 4K broadcasts have more to do with Sony's need to re-establish itself in the home video industry as they do with popular demand. Remember, too, that the size of video streams and files are a function of the square of the dimensions, so a 3840x2160 resolution video is four times larger than one at 1080p. With download sizes for anime episodes now pushing 500 MB in some cases, 4K downloads would be on the order of 2 GB per episodes.
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Old 2013-11-18, 15:43   Link #5
SinsI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
The studios are not even producing at the full HD resolutions. A 1080p broadcast/encode of anime today has more pixels encoded than were original drawn or rendered. Until they start producing material in higher source resolution than that there's no advantage to going higher. (And also 1080p streams/downloads are waste of bandwidth.)
Animation certainly uses less expensive drawing, but I expect background stills to fully utilize it to the maximum of its capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
My guess is that Japan's 4K broadcasts have more to do with Sony's need to re-establish itself in the home video industry as they do with popular demand. Remember, too, that the size of video streams and files are a function of the square of the dimensions, so a 3840x2160 resolution video is four times larger than one at 1080p. With download sizes for anime episodes now pushing 500 MB in some cases, 4K downloads would be on the order of 2 GB per episodes.
It is not so for anime - the actual increase in information is far smaller, so 4k will compress much, much better than current videos. I expect it to be in the range of 10-30% greater size.

The real problem with 4k for me is lack of computer displays with such (or higher) resolution.
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Old 2013-11-18, 15:51   Link #6
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Fansubbers have a duty to produce 4K for later generations who will not want to watch anything lower. Think of the children.
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Old 2013-11-18, 16:16   Link #7
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I don't think 4k displays would be the driving force, but rather multi-display setups (I personally do not see a reason why a 24 inch 4k display is a logical object of existence). Instead of how anime is right now, with the characters taking maybe 40% of the screen size, they would take up maybe 10% of screen size, with the extra spaces being part of the environment to help with immersion as if you are "inside the anime". Think IMAX films.

Who knows, maybe 20 years from now the prices of displays would be so cheap that everyone can afford to have an IMAX theatre in their living room.

Which reminded me: rmb all those 3D TVs a few years ago? Those never took off even though the manufacturers keep trying to turn them into the next big thing.
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Old 2013-11-20, 21:07   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
...I expect background stills to fully utilize it to the maximum of its capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
...the actual increase in information is far smaller...
Um... what? Backgrounds being produced in native 4K is somehow not going to be large increase in information?
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Old 2013-11-20, 23:55   Link #9
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To be honest, anime would benefit much more from either 10 bit or 4:2:2 (or both) consumer formats combined with displays which also can handle that color depth.

You wouldn't even have to change most of the animation process/software for that, and it would give an appreciable increase in quality of anime, especially gradients and linework.

But there's no move to that in the consumer space at all because... Well personally I think it's because it's harder to market. Consumers understand "4K", 'cause it's simple. More pixels, better picture, duh.
Try explaining the difference between 8 bit and 10 bit color or 4:2:2/4:2:0 to your average consumer and their eyes will glaze over.
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Old 2013-11-21, 02:51   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desbreko View Post
Um... what? Backgrounds being produced in native 4K is somehow not going to be large increase in information?
Backgrounds are stills or pan-and-scan images, and as such take only a minor portion of the whole data set. If they take 5% of the space, 4x increase will give a size increase of 15%, and even a 16x will less than double the size of the file.

... Actually, scrap that. Increasing the detail level of an image is the same as drawing that many more images, so again money are going to be the limiting factor. Since budgets are not likely to increase, only computer effects are going to add any extra bulk to the file sizes.
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Old 2013-11-21, 08:44   Link #11
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
To be honest, anime would benefit much more from either 10 bit or 4:2:2 (or both) consumer formats combined with displays which also can handle that color depth.

You wouldn't even have to change most of the animation process/software for that, and it would give an appreciable increase in quality of anime, especially gradients and linework.

But there's no move to that in the consumer space at all because... Well personally I think it's because it's harder to market. Consumers understand "4K", 'cause it's simple. More pixels, better picture, duh.
Try explaining the difference between 8 bit and 10 bit color or 4:2:2/4:2:0 to your average consumer and their eyes will glaze over.
Actually, it looks like we might be getting 10 (or even 12?) Bit in the UltraHD/4K standards, with BT.2020 being discussed as well. And even if 4:2:0 were to stay 4K would still have the same number of color pixels as 1080p without sub-sampling. (4:2:0 means one chroma pixel each 4 luma pixels, 4K/UHD is 4 times 1080p)

We'll still have to wait to see which format(s) will prevail in the market/discussions. I heard hardware makers want to keep 8 Bit to make their job simpler, i.e. chips smaller/cheaper.
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Old 2013-11-21, 12:31   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Actually, it looks like we might be getting 10 (or even 12?) Bit in the UltraHD/4K standards, with BT.2020 being discussed as well. And even if 4:2:0 were to stay 4K would still have the same number of color pixels as 1080p without sub-sampling. (4:2:0 means one chroma pixel each 4 luma pixels, 4K/UHD is 4 times 1080p)

We'll still have to wait to see which format(s) will prevail in the market/discussions. I heard hardware makers want to keep 8 Bit to make their job simpler, i.e. chips smaller/cheaper.
As an "option" or as the broadcast minimum? I don't doubt that there will be 10bit and 4:2:2 profiles for 4K standards for use in professional studios, much like there are for mpeg2, but are they going to be delivered to consumers?
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Old 2013-11-21, 13:49   Link #13
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They are talking about delivery to the consumer but I don't know what will come out of it. I think it's too early to say and may very well end up with a foul compromise. Though even it it turns out to be optional it doesn't necessarily mean we won't be seeing it of course. If consumers lose interest in more pixels the industry might opt for additional features to sell their 4K format.
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Old 2013-11-21, 19:30   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
Backgrounds are stills or pan-and-scan images, and as such take only a minor portion of the whole data set. If they take 5% of the space, 4x increase will give a size increase of 15%, and even a 16x will less than double the size of the file.

... Actually, scrap that. Increasing the detail level of an image is the same as drawing that many more images, so again money are going to be the limiting factor. Since budgets are not likely to increase, only computer effects are going to add any extra bulk to the file sizes.
I think you underestimate the amount of bits it takes to encode highly detailed backgrounds, especially in shows with lots of camera movement. It's certainly more than 5%.

Even disregarding extra detail, though, I'd say that you'd be looking at a 50% increase in file size at the very least to maintain the same quality when upscaling a 1080p anime to 4K. Increased resolution, even if it's not any more detailed, still eats a ton of space.
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Old 2013-11-22, 00:51   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desbreko View Post
I think you underestimate the amount of bits it takes to encode highly detailed backgrounds, especially in shows with lots of camera movement. It's certainly more than 5%.

Even disregarding extra detail, though, I'd say that you'd be looking at a 50% increase in file size at the very least to maintain the same quality when upscaling a 1080p anime to 4K. Increased resolution, even if it's not any more detailed, still eats a ton of space.
TV signals will still be limited in Japan to the same bandwith as now, right? So terrestrial digital ~30 Mb/s, and BS satellite ~40 Mb/s?

If you switch from mpeg2 to mpeg4 I suppose you can maintain the same quality then since that should give at least a 2x efficiency increase to compensate for the 50% increase in "data".
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Old 2013-11-22, 05:00   Link #16
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Well, the issue was download sizes, so I was referring to sizes of reencoded broadcasts. Say, if a native 1080p anime were upscaled and broadcast at 4K, encoding that broadcast at its full resolution vs. downscaling it back to 1080p.

But yeah, I think they'd have to switch to H.264 for 4K broadcasts or else it would be completely unwatchable at the current bitrates. MPEG2 is already bad enough at 1080i.
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Old 2013-11-22, 06:26   Link #17
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They usually opt for the newest codec that's available. Japan is probably using MPEG2 because they were a fast adopter of HD. Countries that adopted HD later on already use H.264. I guess using at least H.264 for 4K is a sure bet, probably even H.265 if encoders are ready by the time Japan starts 4K (or 8K, remember reading somewhere that they're thinking about skipping 4K*).

/edit:
* http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/8k-ol...1309133322.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
TV signals will still be limited in Japan to the same bandwith as now, right? So terrestrial digital ~30 Mb/s, and BS satellite ~40 Mb/s?
They have enough terrestrial bandwidth for 30 Mbit/s per channel? Wow.
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Old 2013-11-22, 13:25   Link #18
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Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
They usually opt for the newest codec that's available. Japan is probably using MPEG2 because they were a fast adopter of HD. Countries that adopted HD later on already use H.264. I guess using at least H.264 for 4K is a sure bet, probably even H.265 if encoders are ready by the time Japan starts 4K (or 8K, remember reading somewhere that they're thinking about skipping 4K*).

/edit:
* http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/8k-ol...1309133322.htm


They have enough terrestrial bandwidth for 30 Mbit/s per channel? Wow.
I assume that would be with new modulation schemes. Currently, Japanese terrestrial channels use about 16 Mbit/s for the entire mux (including 1SEG and shit like that).
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Last edited by TheFluff; 2013-11-22 at 13:37.
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Old 2013-11-23, 07:27   Link #19
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Thx. Sounds similar to the actual rates they use for DVB-T with about 14 Mbit/s per mux (theoretically between ~5 and ~32). And they sometimes squeeze 4 channels into one of them using MPEG2. DVB-T2 is better, of course.
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Old 2013-11-24, 10:29   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desbreko View Post
I think you underestimate the amount of bits it takes to encode highly detailed backgrounds, especially in shows with lots of camera movement. It's certainly more than 5%.

Even disregarding extra detail, though, I'd say that you'd be looking at a 50% increase in file size at the very least to maintain the same quality when upscaling a 1080p anime to 4K. Increased resolution, even if it's not any more detailed, still eats a ton of space.
That still depends on compression performance.
If they were to think outside of the box, they can adopt Vector format for animation, something similar to Flash. In that case, resolution becomes irrelevant.
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