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View Poll Results: Little Busters ~Refrain~ - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 37 71.15%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 8 15.38%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 6 11.54%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 1.92%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-12-15, 12:13   Link #41
Leo_Otaku
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I think if there wasn't so much telling of the crash prior, it would have come across better for a shock value, but how the narrative works i almost don't think it would have been possible. But, regardless if the scenes were relatable they are still sad and moving. I just hope the next episode improves on the novel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyKitty View Post
I don't think the characters engaged me enough for me to care about them like I did with other Key works, except for Kyousuke this season at least.
I agree with this too for the girls. I believe this is due to their weaker arcs in comparison to other KEY games. But I liked all of the male cast and felt they were really well developed.
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Old 2013-12-15, 13:46   Link #42
Reckoner
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I also liked Kanon more than Clannad, and the routes I liked in Kanon were typically not the Maeda ones. Maeda historically has always felt emotionally manipulative to me. Besides Clannad AS episode 18, none of his other emotional climaxes ever worked for me. Especially as it pertains to heroines like Fuko.

But not to derail this into a KEY work comparison... The reason Little Busters to date stands as my favorite KEY work is because of, as Enzo puts it, its innocence and purity. You really grow to care for these people in the story like Riki. They're his friends and he deeply loves all of them. Unlike all other KEY works, this connection wasn't so artificial.

Yes the main Little Buster members earned this emotional resonance more than the side girl routes because the side routes suffer from the same issues as other KEY works with their routes, but Little Busters has never felt that emotionally manipulative barring perhaps Komari's route. Maeda was able to earn the emotion in this work so much better, and I really think it's his crowning work on just so many levels.
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Old 2013-12-15, 18:20   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I understand and respect that you're both trying to convey why you found this episode so effective, but still, some of the criticisms being made here aren't ones that I think are fair or accurate to make of Clannad (Kanon, maybe).

Spoiler for Clannad comparisons:
To each his own. Clannad is the one Key series I see as the most calculating and formulaic of all of them. There are certainly powerful moments, but the whole thing (including the development of the main couple) has a little too much of the contrived to it for me to ever emotionally commit to it.
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Old 2013-12-15, 20:43   Link #44
Dr. Casey
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Kanon was pretty good and I loved Clannad: After Story, while we're discussing Key works in general. I've never watched Air.

Spoiler for Little Busters 11 tl;dr:
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Old 2013-12-16, 08:06   Link #45
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First of all, very nice review and summary by Dr. Casey. And I thank Crashmaking Zoomatic, Bloody Kitty, and others for their thoughtful replies. Now, there are a few more comments I want to make since I probably need to elaborate more on what it was I really liked about these last few episodes of Little Busters.


To be fair, there are some areas where I'd put Little Busters ahead of other Key works...

Spoiler for Comparing Little Busters to Clannad and Kanon:
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Old 2013-12-16, 09:51   Link #46
The Butcher
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All my feels.

Definitely one of my favorite episodes ever. I think I have my favorite anime of this year now, and a new addition to my top 10.

That'd be the second I've cried over a fictional work.
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Old 2013-12-16, 22:19   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
I've never watched Air.
You are missing out! Go watch now

My thoughts on comparing LB to the rest of KEY works.

Spoiler for Comparing Kanon, Clannad and Little Busters not really a spoiler:
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Old 2013-12-16, 23:39   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku View Post
Spoiler for Comparing Kanon, Clannad and Little Busters not really a spoiler:
Spoiler for No real spoiler here either, just adding more to the comparison:
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Old 2013-12-17, 10:16   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Faith View Post
Spoiler for No real spoiler here either, just adding more to the comparison:
Spoiler for Clannad and LB! discussion:
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Old 2013-12-17, 11:56   Link #50
Dark Faith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Spoiler for Clannad and LB! discussion:
Spoiler for Sorry about that guys, more comparisons!:
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Old 2013-12-17, 12:05   Link #51
novalysis
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In my opinion comparing this episode with Clannad's ending is comparing whether Lemons and Oranges are sweeter (which scene hits you harder), rather than whether one Orange is better than another. If you want to ask which Orange is better than another, comparing the ending of Angel Beats with this episode is a more proper comparison.

Spoiler for Even more discussion : This time - the evolution of Maeda's idea, from Clannad to Angel Beats via Little Busters:


I think Maeda really loves to pursue the same themes - it's not just Key , infact, Rewrite is, as far as I can tell very unlike the other Key works done by Maeda.

Little Busters in many way is the missing link between Maeda's development of the concept of "dying dreams", between the dying dream of Clannad, and that of Angel Beats. Little Busters as most know was written before Angel Beats, but I think Maeda was taking the concept of Little Busters, and throwing complete strangers into it. It's a shame that Angel Beats never had the number of episodes needed to really pursue that to it's fullest.

I can see parallels between the parting sequence of the episode and
Spoiler for Angel Beats Comparison:


The main difference is that Little Busters has enough episodes to pull something like this off reasonably well - even with questionable pacing decisions.

Last edited by novalysis; 2013-12-18 at 06:38.
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Old 2013-12-17, 13:03   Link #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Faith View Post
Spoiler for Sorry about that guys, more comparisons!:
Spoiler for More LB and Clannad comparisons:
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Old 2013-12-17, 20:04   Link #53
Dark Faith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Spoiler for More LB and Clannad comparisons:
Spoiler for Moar:
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Old 2013-12-18, 05:41   Link #54
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That was really intense as I felt rather drained by the episode; Kyousuke's world fading away, seemingly parallel to his own end as well as the fates of the other Little Busters was pretty heartbreaking indeed, but you have to face reality and of course when you're gone, the only hope you can have is leave something you did behind, and that would be to where Riki and Rin are running into. But it seems like this is not over yet.

The appeal of Clannad as compared to Little Busters is very diffrent.

Spoiler for My opinion on Key:


Of course, further detail might make this thread to be useful.

In any case, I think every Key work is "emotionally manipulative" to some extent and honestly I don't think subtle and Key belong together for the most part. In the end though, my final conclusion is that it really doesn't matter. But I don't really watch Key anime for the plot-- but for the adorable interactions between certain characters!Though Little Busters ended up with few such moments, I'd say it did very well anyways in sincerity.

It's also intresting of Triple R's discussion of peaks and swamps. I actually think ...

Spoiler:
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-12-18 at 06:28.
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Old 2013-12-18, 11:42   Link #55
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Spoiler for Key anime comparisons, do mention LB:
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Old 2013-12-18, 22:59   Link #56
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Really interesting how everyone has their own favorite KEY work.
I don't have one because I love them like children, all equally.
If someone asked which one I liked better, I wouldn't know how to respond!
I like them all for many and different reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyKitty View Post
Spoiler for Key anime comparisons, do mention LB:
If they did, I wonder if they would include the drama CDs with the extended story. I also want Tomoyo After and ONE re-done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Faith View Post
Spoiler for No real spoiler here either, just adding more to the comparison:
Spoiler for Just a reply:
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Old 2013-12-19, 02:45   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku View Post


Spoiler for Just a reply:


Spoiler for Musing on Little Buster's "Sucessors":
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Old 2013-12-19, 08:29   Link #58
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Spoiler for discussing on LB's 'successor':


Quote:
If they did, I wonder if they would include the drama CDs with the extended story.
Spoiler for some planetarian related stuff:
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Old 2013-12-19, 09:28   Link #59
Haak
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So now everyone's comparing Key works? Lol, screw that.

Finally watched the episode. Nothing surprising and the crying got just a little excessive but otherwise it was another very good episode.
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Old 2013-12-19, 09:32   Link #60
novalysis
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Spoiler for LB Sucessor:


I think people compare to Key's series, because that's their best frame of reference to judge what LB Tried to do against, especially in this episode. That's why all the Clannad comparisons are going up. LB was always going to be compared to Clannad, never-mind that LB's premise is quite a bits different from Clannad in many ways - and broader.

If there's one thing I would slam the episode for (and this is not a problem that was native to the anime but rooted in the very structure of the VN itself ), it's the shutout of all the girls in the final parting sequence. The Farewell was only between the Boys, which might make sense, but I think shows that LB's problem is that while it's based on Friendship, it's big flaw was the segregation of Male and Female into Refrain, and the normal routes. And it shows - the segregation is one of the big reasons why Rin is so passive - there simply is no narrative space for her in the Farewell of the Boys. Which is really, more precisely, Farewell of the Male Half of Little Busters. I really think the only way for Rin to be included was for her character to be completely different, or for the whole Little Busters to part in the very same occasion. But that means the whole of Refrain and indeed, LB would have been different, for that to happen.

So I'm afraid that the scriptwriters could do nothing about Rin's passivity in this scene, as much as it is annoying. There are other reasons, which I can't say right now, that's going into spoiler territory, but there are very strong narrative reasons why they can't fit Rin properly into the farewell. It starts with that huge Firewall that is the segregation between male and Female routes in Little Busters, and unfortunately, Rin falls on the wrong side of that Firewall.


The more I think of it, if Riki was female in Little Busters, this show would actually make far more sense - infact, all the friendship routes won't even have to have been changed that much for Riki to be different, although Refrain would have been quite different . Except that it won't have even sold to begin with - or it might have sold, by making this an Otome Reverse-Harem, since this seems to be the automatic instinct when you make the MC of a VN Female.

But given how crazily well quite a few Otome harems have done in recent years ever since LB's release, if LB was written today, there's a strong chance Riki would have been a female. He's extremely androgynous to begin with. In-fact, LB played with the concept with all those jokes about Trap Riki and Kyousuke x Riki - I really wonder how close Riki was to having 2 X Chromosomes.....

That's what I mean when I say that LB needed to have been written significantly differently, to give Rin more of a role. The parting in this episode is an all Male Affair -if one does not have the Y chromosome, one is an outsider. And this is unfortunate, but it's very hard to avoid such an outcome ever since the start of Refrain. I charge that LB unfortunately fell into a Gender Dichotomy with the strict delineation of routes between males and females,friendship and romance which really showed itself when Rin had no presence in the farewell.

Spoiler for Angel Beats BIG Spoilers open at your own risk:

Last edited by novalysis; 2013-12-19 at 12:09.
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