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Old 2014-03-30, 00:23   Link #81
KleenexGhost
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In all fairness when concerning what was going on with L-Elf, Haruto was the only one who knew what was going on concerning Liselotte. So yeah. Plus the dude kinda isolated himself in his room and didn't want to be bothered, so I understand why Haruto was the only one who showed concern over what L-Elf was going through.

And this may be bit of apathy on my part, but other than when they were useful to his goals L-Elf didn't really give a shit about them, so why should they even care about consoling him? This is the same guy who was going to let Akira burn up in the atmosphere, didn't bat an eyelash when Saki was shot by one of those kids and put one between Marie's eyes without a moment's hesitation.

Yeah, kinda hard for me to be sympathetic to the guy.

And while Haruto was ready to try and go get Saki, Kyuuma pretty much called him on how he didn't even know where Saki was being held and that he didn't even have a plan to rescue her.
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Old 2014-03-30, 00:52   Link #82
LightDragonman
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So rather than try to come up with a plan to try to rescue Saki, he just stays behind and plays because Kyuuma said to be with Shoko and take it easy. Thanks dude. Way to be cool when one of your allies could be getting tortured. >_>

Here's an idea guys.

Send a team back to the hijacked ship where Saki would definitely return to and look through the video recordings if she isn't there. Use that knowledge to track her location, and then use a stealth approach to infiltrate the ship she is being held in. Use your body-jacking powers to make it even easier (heck, A New Hope did something similar). Disguise yourself as prison guards, go under the assumption that you are transporting her to a new location, and sneak her out of there. If Cain or anyone else is there, then wait until he is out of sight. Heck, Saki managed to escape from the capitol ship were he was stationed no problem. I'm not L'Elf, but even I can come up with a plan to retrieve her. Course, what would make it even better is if you all didn't immediately head back to JIOR before at least trying to make contact with Saki. Or heck, make contact with the loyalists if you have to. Presto, Saki's rescued, and that massacre wouldn't have taken place!

Heck, this would have been a perfect opportunity to have Haruto go through some more character development, as he would be the one trying to make a plan to save a friend. Even putting shipping aside, it would show that, like L'Elf, he is extremely dedicated to those close to him and will go through hell for them. While everyone else is all sunshine and rainbows, he is concerned over her well being. Have him remember all that she has gone through for him, and as a result, he tries to repay the favor. Again, a great situation for him to prove he can act without L'Elf, and heck, him succeeding could lead to the latter realizing that he has someone who can be alongside him. Or if he is struggling during the rescue attempt, it could be what causes L'Elf to finally come out of his stupor, as he doesn't want to see another friend die.

But, then that would get rid of the oh-so important bonding scenes between Haruto and Shoko, and we can't have that now can we?
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Old 2014-03-30, 01:01   Link #83
KleenexGhost
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Light, here's the thing. You're smart enough to come up with a plan. The writers weren't that kind to our heroes. You saw what happened when they didn't have L-Elf.

It's like Cain said, "Without L-Elf, they're pretty much a giant without a brain." Yeah, they could do some damage just by rampaging. That's essentially what happened when Kyuuma did his whole heroic sacrifice. But it would only get them so far.

Quote:
Heck, this would have been a perfect opportunity to have Haruto go through some more character development, as he would be the one trying to make a plan to save a friend. Even putting shipping aside, it would show that, like L'Elf, he is extremely dedicated to those close to him and will go through hell for them. While everyone else is all sunshine and rainbows, he is concerned over her well being. Have him remember all that she has gone through for him, and as a result, he tries to repay the favor. Again, a great situation for him to prove he can act without L'Elf, and heck, him succeeding could lead to the latter realizing that he has someone who can be alongside him. Or if he is struggling, it could be what causes L'Elf to finally come out of his stupor, as he doesn't want to see another friend die.
If only this was the case. But that would require them to put in work and develop the relationship between Haruto and Saki.
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Old 2014-03-30, 01:08   Link #84
LightDragonman
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Man, that's harsh.

And see, here's the thing. I'm no master strategist, and I came up with that plan in just a couple of minutes. It wasn't even that hard to figure out, instead being as simple as coming up with the plan used by the heroes in Shaun Of The Dead. Heck, it probably has several holes in it. But that alone is better than just simple ignoring someone who is not only one of your most valuable allies (being a VVV pilot and all), but who has also stuck her neck out for you multiple times. These idiots didn't even take 30 minutes to at least try to think of a plan. Instead, they were just like "Screw it. I can't come up with anything without L'Elf."

And again, it would have been a great scene for more character development. Haruto would show himself to be a much more progressive protagonist, and be shown as someone who will not let someone else suffer. Heck, he could be shown remembering all the things Saki went through for him before trying to find a way to save her. Plus, if L'Elf is the only one who can come up with the right plan, then I would have liked to have seen Haruto try many more times to snap him out of it. Once again, it could have also helped L'Elf to become more of a selfless person.

But nope. Shoko shenanigans must come first.

Last edited by LightDragonman; 2014-03-30 at 01:37.
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Old 2014-03-30, 01:18   Link #85
KleenexGhost
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You're making great points. But. And I know I've been shitting on the writing, but we kinda have to take time constraints into consideration. Not only that but other factors when it concerns how the story turned out. Be it meddling from the director, studio or whoever. You know, two people working on the story have different ideas in where they want it to go.

And if you think that's harsh, you should have seen what I said earlier on the image thread.
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Old 2014-03-30, 01:30   Link #86
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Further proof imo that this show really needed more episodes.

Come to think about it, some of the problems with this story came about as a result of them trying to hammer home the Shoko x Haruto relationship imo. Because of that, why else do you think Haruto was a bit one-track in terms of his mind and relationships?
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Old 2014-03-30, 01:48   Link #87
KleenexGhost
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Your post really makes me want to find those comments that Keyboard and I posted in the image thread earlier. They would make so much sense considering what you just said. Unfortunately, they were deleted.

Who knows why it only got 24 episodes? Maybe they cut it short because the reception was less than satisfactory? Who knows? I'm shitting on it and playing Monday-morning quarterback, yet I don't know how hard the writing process was for them.

Valvrave Season One could be called an entertaining trainwreck. Yeah, it was off the rails and all over the place in terms of quality but it was entertaining. It kept you coming back for more.

Now what do you get when you cut back on the entertaining and double up on the trainwreck? Valvrave Season 2!
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Old 2014-03-30, 02:22   Link #88
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What I said in that other thread is that Haruto, ultimately, loves his own self perception more than he loves any other person.

And that self image being a tragic martyr monster.
He personally chose to burn out and die.
In the novels, he managed to settle things more with Shoko, but that didn't change his mind either.

It kinda makes sense if you think about it.
When he learned that Shoko's father was missing, he didn't stay to comfort and encourage her.
He wanted to go out and retrieve him right away. He didn't want to do it for her. He wanted to do it to validate his own self.
When he learned he killed his father, did he even bother apologizing? No, I think it only fed into his own self image.

And when he proposed to Saki, he treated the potential marriage as a punishment in his words
When that too was rejected, he threw himself into lab experiments. Thus, as you guessed, further fueling this self-image.

In a way he reminds me of Lelouch from CodeGeass. Someone who did selfless things, but that are clearly selfish too.

THAT'S FINE. But I was looking for something different from Okouchi after Lelouch and Shu (GuiltyCrown)
And I feel that unlike Haruto, those two were out of options
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Old 2014-03-30, 02:28   Link #89
KleenexGhost
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Can I remove Haruto from my favorite characters list and just keep Kyuuma, Cain and Akira on there?

Overall, when it comes to Haruto, it feels like the writers wrote themselves into a corner on what to do with the guy in the end. Yes he lost his memories and ran out of runes but they teased that it might be possible to replace lost memories by creating new ones. Not to mention the fact that Haruto didn't bother on refueling on runes other than that one time when he fed on L-Elf. It's like the writers refused to go back to these methods for Haruto sustaining his life or they just plan forgot about it

I also remember you said that things might have been different for Haruto had someone convinced him that he had something to live for. That he wasn't a monster and that his life had meaning. Maybe if that vision he had on the moon would have told him to reveal the truth to the world AND live on then things might have ended differently.

Like you said, his reason for choosing to burn his light out was kinda lacking in the reason department. And honestly, could have been avoided. But like I said, it kinda feels like that just wrote themselves into a corner.

And going back to what you said about Haruto's selfish nature. Let's look at the example of him keeping the fact that him and the other pilots weren't exactly human anymore a secret.

He says did it because he wanted to keep Shoko safe. In reality he did it because he didn't want to be viewed as a monster. We saw this blow up in his face in spectacular fashion.
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Last edited by KleenexGhost; 2014-03-30 at 03:04.
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Old 2014-03-30, 06:54   Link #90
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I'd argue he had self worth issues even before becoming a pilot
the first episodes touched on this. He was a pacifist that always yielded and never tried to win in competitions
Being a kamitsuki only fed into his "I am not worthy" mindset
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Old 2014-03-30, 08:13   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
What I said in that other thread is that Haruto, ultimately, loves his own self perception more than he loves any other person.

And that self image being a tragic martyr monster.
He personally chose to burn out and die.
In the novels, he managed to settle things more with Shoko, but that didn't change his mind either.

It kinda makes sense if you think about it.
When he learned that Shoko's father was missing, he didn't stay to comfort and encourage her.
He wanted to go out and retrieve him right away. He didn't want to do it for her. He wanted to do it to validate his own self.
When he learned he killed his father, did he even bother apologizing? No, I think it only fed into his own self image.

And when he proposed to Saki, he treated the potential marriage as a punishment in his words
When that too was rejected, he threw himself into lab experiments. Thus, as you guessed, further fueling this self-image.

In a way he reminds me of Lelouch from CodeGeass. Someone who did selfless things, but that are clearly selfish too.

THAT'S FINE. But I was looking for something different from Okouchi after Lelouch and Shu (GuiltyCrown)
And I feel that unlike Haruto, those two were out of options
This is... actually pretty damn accurate. The dude never really gave a shit about anything. He was always so preoccupied with being a "monster," that everything else came after. As much as he loved Shoko, you're right Key, he still ultimately chose himself over her.

The only time he ever truly thought about others & decided to try to embrace his Kamitsuki lineage, was back in episode 10. We all saw how that ended & it further fueled his martyr mindset.

Also yea, I agree that when it comes to Lelouch, Shu & Haruto. Situation-wise, they were out of options while Haruto didn't have to go the sacrificial route. He literally took the easy way out & left everyone to deal with everything.
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Old 2014-03-30, 11:03   Link #92
KleenexGhost
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In the right hands that could have been an interesting character trait with Haruto. Eventually develop him out of that mindset into a truly selfless hero, unfortunately we didn't get that
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Old 2014-03-30, 11:59   Link #93
LightDragonman
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That really makes me wish that the scenario I came up with with him saving Saki happened, as that could have really contributed to his character development.
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Old 2014-03-30, 13:00   Link #94
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Hearing all this, I really hope a sequel comes later this year or next year to deal with this issue. All in all, I'm hoping for a reset where Haruto remembers everything that's happened and has to deal with having that knowledge, while events replay for him. I don't care really how it happens. There could be a god of rune for all I care that basically tells Haruto's spirit that he must go back to the beginning of that school day to realize his "sin", like in works Colorful or Pandora Hearts. One of the biggest disappointments I had with the show was Haruto's character. Honestly, I could never grow to like him, because of his self-pity mindset.
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Old 2014-03-30, 14:22   Link #95
Fjoergyn
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I do not think that the staff cared about Haruto and refer to this in a sequel xD

I'm not so sure about a sequel soon


there are many complaints but never showed potential valvrave anything, its bad writing was from the first arc so must live with this and not expect something big.
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Old 2014-03-30, 22:04   Link #96
KleenexGhost
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
One of the biggest disappointments I had with the show was Haruto's character. Honestly, I could never grow to like him, because of his self-pity mindset.
That was one of the things that made Haruto frustrating to watch. I understand you're going some tough things to say the least, but you gotta step up. Lives are on the line, not only your life but the people who put their lives in your hands. To make things worse, when Marie was going through her own personal crisis she still rose to the occasion. Even when she knew what was possibly in store for her and that she would lose her runes and memories.

Throughout the season his character stayed the same until the final episodes. His growth felt unnatural, it felt forced. L-Elf's as well. Like the writers knew they had to wrap things up but Haruto and L-Elf had to at least respect each other and be on the same page. So they shoved all that development into one episode. It didn't feel natural. Yeah, I had feelz when Haruto finally managed to lay a blow on L-Elf, but at the same time I'm thinking "Why are you crying for him? Hell, you guys didn't even like each other until an episode and some change ago!"
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Old 2014-05-06, 09:50   Link #97
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Does anyone know what events take place in the Valvrave Undertaker spinoff novel, and how does it end for our main characters?
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Old 2014-05-07, 09:41   Link #98
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It takes place alongside the main story

Jin and Nao are pilot of an Valvrave variant called Kagerou
L-Elf learns about this, but keeps it a secret from Haruto and the others
When they leave for earth Jin and Nao stay to project the module.

Kagerou doesn't require a Kamitsuki to pilot
it uses a special engine that is basically an internal rune battery
Spoiler:

Near the end Kagerou's battery runs out and it is remodeled into a proper Valvrave
In the end Jin and Nao become Kamitsuki themselves
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