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Old 2013-12-29, 20:54   Link #1
tsunade666
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isn't it already established that its an alternate world? even Roderick from Roderick firm said it. Its like people watching log hora aren't even watching and they aren't like Isaac which is just being tsundere on stuff.

THIS IS NOT SAO They aren't inside a game or playing a virtual game. Its getting irritating with its being mentioned again and again but people still keep on saying it.

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Old 2013-12-29, 21:15   Link #2
teja208
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
isn't it already established that its an alternate world? even Roderick from Roderick firm said it. Its like people watching log hora aren't even watching and they aren't like Isaac which is just being tsundere on stuff.

THIS IS NOT SAO They aren't inside a game or playing a virtual game. Its getting irritating with its being mentioned again and again but people still keep on saying it.
If some people still want to believe Landers are AI I don't think it has anything to do with how this world being more than just a game. I think it can be argued that Shiroe only claim that this is more then just ET the game, but nothing to prove whether they are in an alternate reality or just a trap in a highly advanced virtual world. They aren't in the ET game that's given but nothing to prove that Landers aren't sentinent AI.
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Old 2013-12-29, 21:29   Link #3
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Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
If some people still want to believe Landers are AI I don't think it has anything to do with how this world being more than just a game. I think it can be argued that Shiroe only claim that this is more then just ET the game, but nothing to prove whether they are in an alternate reality or just a trap in a highly advanced virtual world. They aren't in the ET game that's given but nothing to prove that Landers aren't sentinent AI.
This. What Shiroe concludes isn't that they're on another world or if they're in a game (which there are still compelling arguments for considering the overlays and what have you) but rather that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck you may as well treat it like a duck. The Landers act like people so the moral and ethical imperative is to treat them like people. Whether they actually are or aren't is, for the most part, irrelevant in the day-to-day sense.
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Old 2013-12-29, 22:09   Link #4
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Now that he talked about his sister, I guess a romance would make him look pretty perverted. LOL. Oh and also the fact she's like a little kid, and an AI not an actual person...
As has been addressed in the show. The People of the Land actually have FAR more credibility than the Adventurers as far as being *real* people. They're more or less just regular people living in a fantasy world. They're not freakish inhuman immortals. The only we even entertain the possibility that they might not be real is the prejudice that comes with knowing what an NPC is in an MMORPG.

If you transported a regular person from say, the 1950's, into the world of Log Horizon, he'd find the automatic assumption by modern day Adventurers that the People of the land were not *real* to be literally incomprehensible. Without familiarity with the concept of how NPC's in RPG's function, the assumption that the People of the Land weren't real wouldn't make sense. And given how radically different this Elder Scrolls is from the actual game (especially with the People of the Land), citing familiarity with the original game isn't a very authoritative argument.

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Originally Posted by teja208 View Post
If some people still want to believe Landers are AI I don't think it has anything to do with how this world being more than just a game. I think it can be argued that Shiroe only claim that this is more then just ET the game, but nothing to prove whether they are in an alternate reality or just a trap in a highly advanced virtual world. They aren't in the ET game that's given but nothing to prove that Landers aren't sentinent AI.
Here's the thing though. If we accept the idea that the people of the land are just AI simulations...why can't all the other adventurers be AI simulations to? How can any Adventurer know for certain that he isn't the only actual person in existence in this world?

Of course now we're just talking about Solipsim here. And the basic tenants of the philosophy apply just as much in our world as they do in the world of Elder Scrolls. And navel gazing philosophies about how everything and everyone might actually be fake aren't necessarily the best basis to determine practical laws/codes of conduct for running an orderly society should work.
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Old 2013-12-29, 22:32   Link #5
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Here's the thing though. If we accept the idea that the people of the land are just AI simulations...why can't all the other adventurers be AI simulations to? How can any Adventurer know for certain that he isn't the only actual person in existence in this world?

Of course now we're just talking about Solipsim here. And the basic tenants of the philosophy apply just as much in our world as they do in the world of Elder Scrolls. And navel gazing philosophies about how everything and everyone might actually be fake aren't necessarily the best basis to determine practical laws/codes of conduct for running an orderly society should work.
A better question is how do any of them know they're really real think about it if the People of the Land are AI and extraordinarily advanced ones it's possible they're all part of some AI experiment and not real flesh and blood people that would actually make more sense then either them being transported some alternate universe or being mysteriously sucked into VR version of an MMO they were playing.
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Old 2013-12-29, 23:19   Link #6
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by GundamFan View Post
A better question is how do any of them know they're really real think about it if the People of the Land are AI and extraordinarily advanced ones it's possible they're all part of some AI experiment and not real flesh and blood people that would actually make more sense then either them being transported some alternate universe or being mysteriously sucked into VR version of an MMO they were playing.
Well that goes back to the thing I mentioned earlier. If you belive in the idea of just being a computer simulation, isn't that a theory you'd always have to worry about? Like, in your day to day existance? And not just when you end up tossed into some kinda super natural setting?
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Old 2013-12-29, 23:57   Link #7
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Well that goes back to the thing I mentioned earlier. If you belive in the idea of just being a computer simulation, isn't that a theory you'd always have to worry about? Like, in your day to day existance? And not just when you end up tossed into some kinda super natural setting?
I suppose so but being an ultra advance AI in a computer simulation seems very improbable normally however in the situation of the people stuck in the Elder Tale game it actually would be the most well thought out possibility.
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Old 2013-12-30, 00:04   Link #8
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
THIS IS NOT SAO They aren't inside a game or playing a virtual game. Its getting irritating with its being mentioned again and again but people still keep on saying it.
how you say this all mighty is irritating me lol
if u read SAO light novel until the last arc, this elder tale still being a virtual game IS possible
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Old 2013-12-30, 00:34   Link #9
monir
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
isn't it already established that its an alternate world? even Roderick from Roderick firm said it. Its like people watching log hora aren't even watching and they aren't like Isaac which is just being tsundere on stuff.
When was that established? Refresh my memory, please.
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Old 2013-12-30, 01:25   Link #10
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When was that established? Refresh my memory, please.
It never has been since they have no way to prove any of their theories regarding the nature of the reality they're in. What is established is that the Round Table and Akiba are treating it like an alternate reality and going forward on the assumption that their theory is correct because to do otherwise will likely lead to crap like Susekino. Their working relationship with reality and the actual nature of reality are not the same thing; frankly it's the most sensible answer because there is no downside to believing so even if they are wrong and plenty of issues if they do otherwise and are wrong.

Within the context of the world, the characters don't question whether the world is real or not at this point because there's really no point for them to do so. Let's assume they believe it all to be a game, then what? Well the answer is what we saw; the start of the series and the decline of Akiba and Susekino with a few guilds finding purpose in playing the game but the majority falling into apathy due to lack of purpose. What if they assume it's all real and the Landers are people? Well you have what they're doing now; trying to find their way because this is reality and they have no choice but to deal with it. Taking what the Adventurers are doing in order to stay sane as canonical fact on a mystery which they don't understand or know anything about is folly; they don't know and in most instances they aren't thinking about it because it's secondary to restoring some sense of normalcy and purpose to their existence. This is what the Round Table Conference was about.

Imagine you questioned your own existence. Imagine you can't tell if you're real or fake. Imagine that you can't tell if what you see is real or isn't. What do you do? It seems to me there's really only three choices: you become paralyzed with indecision, you assume it's all a lie and do whatever you want, or you assume it's all real and act accordingly. Which do you pick? In the end it doesn't matter what the "truth" is, what matters is what you do about it.

Shiroe's points about treating the People of the Land as fellow sentients are dressed up in tangible cost-benefit issues (war, hardship, and so forth), however the scene with the random farmers they stayed with on the trip back from Susekino is designed to highlight the fact that to Shiroe the Landers are indistinguishable from "normal" humans. Insisting Akiba treat them like people has little to do with potential harm the Landers can inflict to the Adventurers and everything to do with what is ethically/morally right. Furthermore I suspect that Shiroe saw the link between abusing the Landers and the situation in Susekino, namely that if you convince yourself that something that is, in nearly every single way, indistinguishable from a person is an object which you can do whatever you want with, how long before you start doing the same to people you know are "real?" If Demikas and Brigandia are any indication the answer is "not very long."

TL;DR: The nature of the Log Horizon universe has not been established but the Adventurers gain nothing from believing it is anything except real.
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Old 2013-12-30, 02:33   Link #11
monir
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Thank you for this articulated and well thought out response. And I agree with you completely. At least you didn't right out dismiss the in-your-face correlation about how the setting of this world is a virtual-copy of the online MMORPG. Based on what we've learned up to episode 13, it is still not clear whether these guys are stuck in virtual world or in an alternate universe. So outright dismissing (or showing irritation p) the notion that they still might be stuck in a virtual program would be a bit of a premature assertion.
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Old 2013-12-30, 02:39   Link #12
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You could walk around believing black people are goblins, indians are orcs, and east asians are alien invaders because your mama told you so, despite the behaviors suggesting otherwise.
But I would think that's gonna do more harm than good while living in the real world.

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Thank you for this articulated and well thought out response. And I agree with you completely. At least you didn't right out dismiss the in-your-face correlation about how the setting of this world is a virtual-copy of the online MMORPG. Based on what we've learned up to episode 13, it is still not clear whether these guys are stuck in virtual world or in an alternate universe. So outright dismissing (or showing irritation p) the notion that they still might be stuck in a virtual program would be a bit of a premature assertion.
You see, here's the thing though monir. Unlike SAO where the environments of virtual reality was presupposed, the likelihood of hundreds of thousands of people, maybe even close to a million, from all corners of the Earth, getting trapped in a virtual world resembling a regular MMORPG is about as "fantasy" as you can get.
Keep in mind they were NOT playing a VRMMO like SAO. This was a regular game, just like we play in the real world.

Imagine some massive world-wide entity deciding to suddenly kidnap everyone logged on to World of Warcraft on the exact same time around the globe, strapping them to a virtual machine somehow created to simulate the world of Azeroth perfectly. This ridiculous notion was actually dismissed by Shiroe in the very first volume, but his monologues have been all but cut in the anime since that would be a boring first episode.

For this to be even conceived as an man-made virtual world, it would have to involve aliens or supernatural deities. Or time travelers and/or Matrix backdrop.
And at that point, it's kinda moot to even consider this not being an actual magical world, no?
It's Haruhi level of madness.
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Old 2013-12-30, 02:44   Link #13
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I think it's the whole Noosphere stuff, which Mamare said was a heavy influence on the series. Pretty much, it's an essay about how everyone's collective consciousness/will, intentionally or unintentionally, causes an event to unfold; or at least, that's what I got from other people talking about it.

((I don't know if that counts as a spoiler or not, since nothing's been particularly confirmed yet.))
Unconsciousness and unintentional; Homesteading the Noosphere is definitely about how unconscious customs unintentionally change and influence goals even if the customs and the goal are completely contradictory. Namely it focuses on the open source movement and how human nature and human characteristics have made it less open then it should be given it's mission statement because human history has ingrained characteristics into us that make such a thing... really hard to do.

I'd really recommend reading it since it isn't written in high academia and his sentence structure tends to be less convoluted and meandering than mine! I don't know if you'll be able to draw direct parallels to Log Horizon from it though I can definitely see how it influenced Mamare's work. It also isn't terribly long since each section probably isn't more than a novel page or two in length; most of that length is taken up explaining things.
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Old 2013-12-30, 03:09   Link #14
tsunade666
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When was that established? Refresh my memory, please.
Its not been stressed out on the first episode or not been shown out at all. But in the manga. there was a small event before the clock ticks 12:00 or rather before the whole update and log in on ET.

Spoiler:


But the part where Shiroe was investigating the settings, his surroundings and the feeling of his surrounding. Its happening when he arrive in elder tales and up to meeting with naotsugu and concluding it after they met that "its real" and even after the episode ended. In the preview of the next episode. Shiroe always say that "this is our reality" heck, I think he also said that in episode 1.

Aside from body disappearance and body becoming real plus following the pre-made character in ET. Can you even suggest that as something like sci-fi genre? plus it happen world wide. It didn't just happen like in one part of the country with only 10000 people. it happen in millions around the world. I think even a world class terrorist group won't be able to hide their bodies around for a long time without being find. Unless you go "fantasy" setting on explaining their disappearance.

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Originally Posted by hamazura View Post
how you say this all mighty is irritating me lol
if u read SAO light novel until the last arc, this elder tale still being a virtual game IS possible
if your talking about Alicization then please explain how will they maintain millions of people? this is not one gary sue person being maintain in a virtual world. Oh please. Unless they go matrix on the world but even that are just consciousness diving into the virtual world.

Plus next episode would actually explain the "whole body in the game/world" is important. That makes a huge difference on what's happening.
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Old 2013-12-30, 03:11   Link #15
monir
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Imagine some massive world-wide entity deciding to suddenly kidnap everyone logged on to World of Warcraft on the exact same time around the globe, strapping them to a virtual machine somehow created to simulate the world of Azeroth perfectly. This ridiculous notion was actually dismissed by Shiroe in the very first volume, but his monologues have been all but cut in the anime since that would be a boring first episode.

For this to be even conceived as an man-made virtual world, it would have to involve aliens or supernatural deities. Or time travelers and/or Matrix backdrop.
And at that point, it's kinda moot to even consider this not being an actual magical world, no?
It's Haruhi level of madness.
Point taken. However, let me ask you this,.... how is alternate universe scenario is any less "Haruhi level of madness" than a virtual copy? For me, I'm not yet ready to dismiss any theories yet considering every theory requires a significant stretch of the imagination to accept that world.
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Old 2013-12-30, 03:16   Link #16
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Point taken. However, let me ask you this,.... how is alternate universe scenario is any less "Haruhi level of madness" than a virtual copy? For me, I'm not yet ready to dismiss any theories yet considering every theory requires a significant stretch of the imagination to accept that world.
Occam's razor. One world has the magic to explain the transportation, whereas there is no explanation whatsoever how the world could have become real from our end.

Doesn't prove the theory, but currently the evidence we have leans in favor of the alternate universe theory.
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Old 2013-12-30, 03:22   Link #17
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Aside from body disappearance and body becoming real plus following the pre-made character in ET. Can you even suggest that as something like sci-fi genre? plus it happen world wide. It didn't just happen like in one part of the country with only 10000 people. it happen in millions around the world. I think even a world class terrorist group won't be able to hide their bodies around for a long time without being find. Unless you go "fantasy" setting on explaining their disappearance.
Clarke's Third Law states that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. That relates to this in that if the best argument for the Catastrophe is "they got sucked into an alternate universe that happens to use video game overlays and MMO rules for it's laws of physics" then the equally ludicrous "there's a secret society using Elder Tales to create a perfect virtual world with AIs" is just as valid.

I think this discussion though needs to make a distinction between what the Adventurers think of the situation and what we, the viewers, think of it. To the Adventurers the issue is moot because they can do absolutely nothing about it so it isn't something they spend much time caring about; to them it's just another world. To us, the viewer, it does matter on the meta level because it informs how we view the actions of the characters and the world. In that sense I think Log Horizon should have stressed a little harder what we're talking about now.
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Old 2013-12-30, 03:38   Link #18
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Originally Posted by WhiteJoker View Post
Clarke's Third Law states that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. That relates to this in that if the best argument for the Catastrophe is "they got sucked into an alternate universe that happens to use video game overlays and MMO rules for it's laws of physics" then the equally ludicrous "there's a secret society using Elder Tales to create a perfect virtual world with AIs" is just as valid.
Actually it's more like the MMO rules are being squeezed into the laws of physics.

I would say the laws of physics still come first, then the MMO rules come into play.

However as we learned from the cooking and other things, the MMO rules are getting a bit flimsy...
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Old 2013-12-30, 06:09   Link #19
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And WTH is noopsphere ? As far i know , every major update (expansion) in MMORPG , ussualy they will have a major quest . So i think if shiroe want to solve the mystery of ET world. He must find out what is noopsphere first ( novasphere ) sphere = is like an orb glowing thing right ? and what is the major quest of this expansion/update
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Old 2013-12-30, 06:15   Link #20
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Point taken. However, let me ask you this,.... how is alternate universe scenario is any less "Haruhi level of madness" than a virtual copy? For me, I'm not yet ready to dismiss any theories yet considering every theory requires a significant stretch of the imagination to accept that world.
It's not, that's the point.
By virtual world, if you mean by actual modern day human hands with no supernatural involved, then every evidence suggest otherwise. My point is, whatever the explanation is, it must be supernatural (or extremely advanced technology beyond the setting of the story) involved - whether it be collective consciousness of men through the internet (noosphere theory) or Haruhi-like reality warping deity, or extra-terrestrial technology.

SAO explanation simply is unfeasible, and this is confirmed by characters in-story.
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