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Old 2013-12-30, 06:44   Link #21
hamazura
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Story takes place in 2018 and the way the manga portray life before the Catastrophe shows that technology have not progressed to the point of widespread virtual and augmented reality, let alone AI being nearly indistinguisable from human intelligence and computers able to manage them. Also Elder Tale IS your average keyboard, mouse and computer MMORPG.
ok, i respect ur opinion

my opinion
assuming they've developed super advanced technology in secret
there is elder tale big machine main server, inside are the world of elder tale, high intelligence AI, and monster. and then the developer extracted the player character and mind with only god knows how to do it. supernatural tech? possible.

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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
if your talking about Alicization then please explain how will they maintain millions of people? this is not one gary sue person being maintain in a virtual world. Oh please. Unless they go matrix on the world but even that are just consciousness diving into the virtual world.

Plus next episode would actually explain the "whole body in the game/world" is important. That makes a huge difference on what's happening.
yes im talking about project alicization.
who knows how to do it? it just my wild theory, maybe supernatural technology flying the soul of players into elder tale server?
maybe like //HACK?

no matter how i think about it, the closest guess is that this setting is similar to project alicization with some supernatural
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Old 2013-12-30, 06:47   Link #22
aohige
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Originally Posted by hamazura View Post
ok, i respect ur opinion

my opinion
assuming they've developed super advanced technology in secret
there is elder tale big machine main server, inside are the world of elder tale, high intelligence AI, and monster. and then the developer extracted the player character and mind with only god knows how to do it. supernatural tech? possible.
With what, world encompassing voodoo magic?
Not a single one of these players are using anything to connect their minds to the computer you know.

"Super advanced technology" doesn't hack your brains through your mouse & keyboard and download data.
That's not some word you can just throw around. "Magic" is.
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Old 2013-12-30, 06:52   Link #23
hamazura
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
With what, world encompassing voodoo magic?
Not a single one of these players are using anything to connect their minds to the computer you know.

"Super advanced technology" doesn't hack your brains through your mouse & keyboard and download data.
That's not some word you can just throw around. "Magic" is.
lets just say after the patch, something happen on your monitor and cast magic to you :-p
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Old 2013-12-30, 07:01   Link #24
Tenzen12
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To put it simply Elder Tales weren't virtual reality and simply giga or two of update can't turn PC game into it.

If you say it's virtual reality you can say same thing about Never ending story, considering how complex Log horison world is, gap between media like book and MMORPG is close to noneexistent.
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Old 2013-12-30, 07:54   Link #25
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
*snip*
I really have to agree with aohige on this one. I suppose some people like the virtual reality explanation because it feels more "reasonable", but when you actually examine the mechanics of it, it's entirely unreasonable. This isn't like Sword Art Online where VR was an existing technology that everyone was familiar with. The mere existence of THAT kind of technology would be fantastical in our world.

You then get into the issue of how hundreds of thousands of people were transported from their homes and into a location where they could be hooked up into VR sims. This either involves Star Trek teleportation, or an army of ninja's with knock out drugs simultaneously kidnapping hundreds of thousands of people world wide and moving them undetected to hidden VR sim stations. At a certain point you realize this is all just as absurd as getting transported to an alternate reality.

Perhaps the most *mundane* explanation is that this IS a sophisticated virtual reality simulation prison inside a hyper sophisticated computer...but due to the logistical problems of kidnapping hundreds of thousands of people, it's most likely that only a tiny handful of Adventurers were actually kidnapped, and that the hyper majority of Adventurers were AI simulations like the People of the Land.
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
Point taken. However, let me ask you this,.... how is alternate universe scenario is any less "Haruhi level of madness" than a virtual copy? For me, I'm not yet ready to dismiss any theories yet considering every theory requires a significant stretch of the imagination to accept that world.
Because the VR idea is the weaker theory.

Alternate world theory
-Pro: Our senses tell us we're in an alternate world
-Con: No idea how we got here

Virtual reality theory
-Pro: Nothing
-Con: No idea how we got there

All the VR theory does is nitpick the alternate world theory by postulating that "maybe" our sensory input isn't reliable. It's a big old "proving a negative" conundrum. It's a fascinating *theory*, but with no active proof, why should anyone take it seriously?


edit: There's also the fact that the Virtual reality thing isn't a particularly useful explanation for the Elder Scrolls in particular. Once you start taking the Snow Globe theory to it's natural conclusion, there's no particular reason to assume that the world the Adventurers previously lived in was real either. Ethereal alien space bats could just as easily fake the modern day world as they could the World of Elder Tales.

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Originally Posted by WhiteJoker View Post
then the equally ludicrous "there's a secret society using Elder Tales to create a perfect virtual world with AIs" is just as valid.
That actually sounds more ludicrous. Why the heck would a nefarious organization with access to mass Teleportation and Strong artificial intelligence bother being a "secret society", rather than overt global overlords? People with god like power don't try to hide their activity from insects.

A fantasy world based on an MMORPG (complete with Adventurers who use user interfaces) is fantastical, but not THAT outrageous once you've factored and accepted the hypothetical potential for infinite numbers of different alternate realities. At least the world is internally consistent.
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Old 2013-12-30, 09:24   Link #26
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Was about to throw in some spoiler before I read that big-ass NO SPOILER note up there.

Still, the update name is Homesteading the Noosphere, or Novasphere Pioneers.

As its name suggest, it is about the guys making their home in this strange land.

I doubt they can even find a clue to go back.


Anyway, with just the information based on the anime alone, there are no way to tell if this was magic or technology cause.

They could have secretly developed a giant ass machine with alien help right?

Quote:
That actually sounds more ludicrous. Why the heck would a nefarious organization with access to mass Teleportation and Strong artificial intelligence bother being a "secret society", rather than overt global overlords? People with god like power don't try to hide their activity from insects.
What if they are studying human behaviour "what if we grant them some badass power?"
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Old 2013-12-30, 09:49   Link #27
Keroko
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
- Absolutely no spoilers or hints will be allowed in the thread. I understand it poses a certain challenge for the novel/manga readers
That's an understatement. There's dozens of theories even novel readers are debating, all of which now still don't have a thread to debate them in.

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Originally Posted by Lazgrane View Post
They could have secretly developed a giant ass machine with alien help right?
Shouldn't we have been seeing signs of this alien party by now?
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Old 2013-12-30, 10:18   Link #28
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Spoiler for Fantasy:
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Old 2013-12-30, 10:35   Link #29
hamazura
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Originally Posted by human6861 View Post
Spoiler for Fantasy:
do you know that sao is playing with soul since volume.9?
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Old 2013-12-30, 11:01   Link #30
Vezon
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Just out of curiosity, is Elder Tales based off a post-apocalypse world?
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Last edited by Vezon; 2013-12-30 at 11:01. Reason: opps wrong name.
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Old 2013-12-30, 11:08   Link #31
ices
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Originally Posted by WhiteJoker View Post
Unconsciousness and unintentional; Homesteading the Noosphere is definitely about how unconscious customs unintentionally change and influence goals even if the customs and the goal are completely contradictory. Namely it focuses on the open source movement and how human nature and human characteristics have made it less open then it should be given it's mission statement because human history has ingrained characteristics into us that make such a thing... really hard to do.

I'd really recommend reading it since it isn't written in high academia and his sentence structure tends to be less convoluted and meandering than mine! I don't know if you'll be able to draw direct parallels to Log Horizon from it though I can definitely see how it influenced Mamare's work. It also isn't terribly long since each section probably isn't more than a novel page or two in length; most of that length is taken up explaining things.
Several times it's stated that this story was influenced by this "Homesteading the Noosphere" book. Is it true? Is there a source baking this statement?

For everyone else wondering, the book is available in the internet with open license. You could read it at http://catb.org/esr/writings/homesteading/homesteading/

Last edited by ices; 2013-12-30 at 12:23.
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Old 2013-12-30, 11:12   Link #32
Sheba
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Originally Posted by vezonisdead View Post
Just out of curiosity, is Elder Tales based off a post-apocalypse world?
It takes place in a post-apocalyptic Earth. Think Hawkmoon.
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Old 2013-12-30, 11:13   Link #33
Keroko
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Originally Posted by vezonisdead View Post
Just out of curiosity, is Elder Tales based off a post-apocalypse world?
Yes, but going into details on it would be spoiler territory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ices View Post
Several times it's stated that this story was influenced by this "Homesteading the Noosphere" book. Is it true? Is there a source baking this statement?

For everyone else wondering, the book is available in the internet with open license. You could read it in http://catb.org/esr/writings/homesteading/homesteading/
He confirmed it on his twitter.

The first line loosely translates as "The book was one of the inspirations for Log Horizon."
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Old 2013-12-30, 11:46   Link #34
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Dont ya worry about...the next episode...world fraction will throw even more theory about the origin of this whole mess...me is more to the alternate world with supranatural cause of the whole mess due to the explanation regan/re=gun give to shiroe
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Old 2013-12-30, 12:13   Link #35
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While I'm of the opinion that Log Horizon is a fantasy world they've been transported to, much like what happened to the main character of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance (only without the fantasy world replacing the real world aspects), there's something I don't think I've seen pointed out.

Namely that for all that people like to bring up that Elder Tails was a mouse and keyboard MMO, not a VR game, and therefore it can't be like SAO, there's something that argument overlooks. Namely that "The World" in the .hack franchise was also a mouse and keyboard MMORPG. That has not stopped the franchise from revolving around people being trapped in the game in one way or another. Indeed, it started with .hack//Sign where the main character Tsukasa was trapped in his character, walking around with the game pretty much real to him, even though it was still a game for everyone else. Likewise, in the second .hack//G.U. game, and I suppose I should spoiler this:

Spoiler for .hack//G.U. Volume 2:


And so on, and so forth. They games also feature as a bonus AI copies of some characters of varying quality. There's also an AI indistinguishable from a human player, and a character that's either a master hacker roleplaying as a kid, roleplaying as someone that only exists in the game, or is another AI indistinguishable from a person.

The trapped in the game aspects have no technical explanation that I'm aware of, indeed no real explanation at all that I'm aware of, of how someone in a coma nowhere near a computer with the game installed, is trapped in the game. To the viewer or player, it is essentially magic.

Indeed, .hack//Link, where I generally stopped following the franchise, feature it's basic plot being the main character being physically transported into the game.

So yeah, Elder Tales being a mouse and keyboard game does not automatically preclude them from having been sucked into, or copied into the game.
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Old 2013-12-30, 12:56   Link #36
WhiteJoker
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
That actually sounds more ludicrous. Why the heck would a nefarious organization with access to mass Teleportation and Strong artificial intelligence bother being a "secret society", rather than overt global overlords? People with god like power don't try to hide their activity from insects.

A fantasy world based on an MMORPG (complete with Adventurers who use user interfaces) is fantastical, but not THAT outrageous once you've factored and accepted the hypothetical potential for infinite numbers of different alternate realities. At least the world is internally consistent.
I wouldn't know, being a rather overt absolute dictator in personality, however that is the plot for god knows how many anime, manga, movie, and general fiction stories. Somebody else brought it up but Gantz is a pretty good example of this, though I stopped following it midway through so I still don't really know why anything is the way it is.

In any case, I wasn't proposing that it was the actual reasoning behind the Catastrophe rather to illustrate that both are off in the outfield; one just happens to be in the left and the other happens to be in the right. In addition, your second paragraph of accepting the potential for an infinite number of different alternate realities also allows for what you deride as implausible to be possible on an equal level to what you're proposing as your base assumption is "if you accept this central conceit on the basis of suspension-of-disbelief then X is possible." The issue with this is that we the viewer have not been exposed to any exposition with regards to the actual nature of the universe, nor have we been provided with any hints as to the nature of the Catastrophe, so the acceptance of any central conceit is based solely upon one's individual preference as opposed to any evidence within the work itself.

Or to directly quote you since you appear to have reached the same conclusion earlier on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
At a certain point you realize this is all just as absurd as getting transported to an alternate reality.
Emphasis being on "just as absurd" which brings you back to my point. Taking our reality as the basis, no matter how you cut it, whatever reason for the Catastrophe requires godly levels of deus ex machina such that you can justify nearly anything; when you're within the realms of "god did it" for your reasoning then what's to say "god" didn't also do a bunch of other things? The only question is what flavor of "god" you're currently having a theoretical kick with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
edit: There's also the fact that the Virtual reality thing isn't a particularly useful explanation for the Elder Scrolls in particular. Once you start taking the Snow Globe theory to it's natural conclusion, there's no particular reason to assume that the world the Adventurers previously lived in was real either. Ethereal alien space bats could just as easily fake the modern day world as they could the World of Elder Tales.
Which also neatly solves the issue of how they went from playing a modern MMO via mouse and keyboard to being in a game world. That issue however is an issue for the viewer to contend with (and it can be a very interesting plot point if done correctly ala the unreliable narrator trope) rather then the Adventurers. As I noted in my first post in this thread which was lifted from the other thread, to somebody actually in the situation your choices are limited and I believe Shiroe knew that hence his decisions. Your pro-con list takes things from the Adventurers' perspective however the question of the nature of the Log Horizon universe is a viewer question; more specifically your pro for an alternative reality is really only a pro from the perspective of the Adventurers; as I've already said, what they choose to believe does not in fact make it proof positive or even remotely true, rather it is something they have to do in order to maintain their own sanity and that is not the same as a viewer attempting to puzzle out the central mystery of a story's plot (mind you it certainly is a pro in my mind with regards to direction of plot since I'd really rather not see a reproduction of Descartes' Cogito Ergo Sum thought experiment).

You can regard everything they're doing now as a coping mechanism and distraction so they don't get stuck in the existential horror loop of questioning one's own existence, however given that the base implication is that all of these people were average and mostly normal on our scale of reference, it seems to be a generally non-issue. What I mean by this is how often do you question your own existence? Does it ever actually paralyze you with indecision? Generally speaking no, you might have the odd thought about it late at nice when you're trying to sleep and can't but on the whole most people would probably view it as a silly mental exercise; the Adventurers would be the same.

Yes, their reality has drastically changed however there's really no benefit or logical point to questioning such a basic assertion (it's relevance largely being on the meta scale for the viewer) for a sane individual; you assume that until otherwise informed you are and carry on. Somebody who doesn't take this view is either insane or a philosopher with far too much time on their hands; the average person likely wouldn't be caught up in "am I/this real?" but instead the more familiar question of "what do I do now?" That seems to be the direction of Log Horizon focusing not on the metaphysics but instead on the tangible question of day-to-day living as most people tend to do.
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Old 2013-12-30, 14:16   Link #37
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
While I'm of the opinion that Log Horizon is a fantasy world they've been transported to, much like what happened to the main character of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance (only without the fantasy world replacing the real world aspects), there's something I don't think I've seen pointed out.

Namely that for all that people like to bring up that Elder Tails was a mouse and keyboard MMO, not a VR game, and therefore it can't be like SAO, there's something that argument overlooks. Namely that "The World" in the .hack franchise was also a mouse and keyboard MMORPG. That has not stopped the franchise from revolving around people being trapped in the game in one way or another. Indeed, it started with .hack//Sign where the main character Tsukasa was trapped in his character, walking around with the game pretty much real to him, even though it was still a game for everyone else.
Actually, according to .hack//Liminality and //Twilight, it was a VR game.

Which kind of explains why Tsukasa only realized he was trapped when he tried to log out. Something a tad harder to justify if it was mouse and keyboard.
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Old 2013-12-30, 14:32   Link #38
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Actually, according to .hack//Liminality and //Twilight, it was a VR game.

Which kind of explains why Tsukasa only realized he was trapped when he tried to log out. Something a tad harder to justify if it was mouse and keyboard.
They wear goggles/headsets but they still play the game via keyboard/controller/something analogue. It's roughly comparable to our VR systems in that it's just an audio-visual system in goggle form that doesn't hijack the senses or mess with the brain like SAO's set up.

Last edited by WhiteJoker; 2013-12-30 at 15:06.
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Old 2013-12-30, 15:03   Link #39
Krono
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Actually, according to .hack//Liminality and //Twilight, it was a VR game.

Which kind of explains why Tsukasa only realized he was trapped when he tried to log out. Something a tad harder to justify if it was mouse and keyboard.
While they call it a VR game it is VR along the lines of Oculus Rift and other such headsets, as at numerous points we see them playing the game using controllers. So they're just wearing a fancy display visor and headphones that they can put down the controller and reach up and pull off at anytime. In short, it's just an audio visual headset. They use a controller to play the game. They can use either the keyboard or a microphone for communication. Even some of the real world scenes suggest that the headset isn't necessarily a requirement, just highly desirable.

So yeah, for all intents and purposes, "The World" is a mouse and keyboard game.
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Old 2013-12-30, 16:53   Link #40
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So, how was all the people getting absorbed, or if they weren't still moving and reacting to one another as if it was a full-on VR in every single .hack incarnation explained then? We might be able to apply that to LH.
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