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Old 2013-12-30, 17:06   Link #41
Xacual
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People in .hack were still seeing the game from first person weren't they? Which is a big difference from a WoW style third person perspective. Also Log Horizon had no headset or other peripherals, it was just keyboard and mouse.
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Old 2013-12-30, 17:19   Link #42
WhiteJoker
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So, how was all the people moving and reacting to one another as if it was a full-on VR in every single .hack incarnation explained then? We might be able to apply that to LH.
The same way people control mecha in anime like full-motion people with just two joysticks and pedals: because they can. .hack is pretty vague about a lot of things, for instance, while I never finished the original game trilogy I'm fairly certain the reasoning for how Data Drain and/or Data Bugs put people into comas is basically "because it does." A lot of this has to do with the theme that the virtual world and the real world are heavily linked to one another and a lot of it also has to do with the basic conceit of fiction in that "it just does."

It's a lot like how in .hack you run around fighting mobs to fix bugs instead of programmers pushing back end patches and updates. Even if the ALTIMIT OS is the only operating system and all computer things operate on the same code there's no logical reason for bad or conflicting code to manifest as monsters that attack players in a game... well, not unless you're a huge fan of Oh! My Goddess!
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Old 2013-12-30, 17:37   Link #43
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... In that case I find .hack a rather poor series to use as a comparison. It doesn't really help our theories and speculation much if we just point to .hack and go "well, it just does."
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Old 2013-12-30, 17:57   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... In that case I find .hack a rather poor series to use as a comparison. It doesn't really help our theories and speculation much if we just point to .hack and go "well, it just does."
A better example would be Neil Stephenson's Snow Crash on how good writing and clever sideways thinking can make the issue of how a purely analogue output system can still do things that you'd normally associate with a sensory hijacking system plausible. Well that and dozens of pages of people standing around and discussing some rather esoteric ideas. But that's getting side tracked.

Krono's point is more that it has been done before and until there's an explanation writing it off as impossible/implausible is akin to writing off "magic transported them to a parallel universe with game overlays" because magic didn't exist in their original world.
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Old 2013-12-30, 19:49   Link #45
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Ah, but magic does exist in the parallel world. That's the key difference.
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Old 2013-12-30, 20:05   Link #46
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Ah, but magic does exist in the parallel world. That's the key difference.
You're focusing on the wrong thing. "They couldn't be trapped in a virtual world because they don't use any mind-machine interface systems" is the same as saying "they couldn't have been transported to an alternate reality with magic because magic doesn't exist in the universe they came from." There is no key difference because explaining how magic from one universe worked on another, where magic doesn't exist, is the same suspension-of-disbelief effort as explaining how an analogue interface sucked somebody's consciousness out. Magic existing in Log Horizon is no more proof of anything than the overlays and game-y nature is.

To clarify, I am not supporting the virtual reality theory anymore then I am supporting the alternate universe theory (my actual stance is spoilery so I can't talk about it) but rather that with what we know currently there is absolutely nothing that indicates anything either way.
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Old 2013-12-31, 02:15   Link #47
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Well, the difference is.

I don't consider Mamare to be that stupid.
And let's be honest, "your monitor sucking your soul into database without any supernatural means" is completely idiotic writing, and you may feel otherwise, but I don't feel Mamare is. There's gonna be explanations beyond duplicating SAO and .hack "oh they're just trapped in a virtual reality made by evil programmer/AI/thatfreakingnerddownthestreet". I can bet you my grandmother's tombstone on that.

Frankly I believe the odds are in my favor.

If I was to make a guess, oh I dunno, the fact the very expansion that appears to have caused this is called "Homesteading the Noosphere", my money is on the collective human consciousness voodoo mumbojumbo reality bending nonsense is somehow involved.

Then there's the classic UY Beautiful Dreamer / RayEarth / Suzumiya Haruhi / MuvLuv's Sumika cliche.
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Old 2013-12-31, 03:16   Link #48
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Yeah, Mamare is is writing down to the intention of every character. So it's more likely he's give some good reason for it. But then, it doesn't hurt to have some Black Technology(tm) at work.

And I guess part of it is quite Haruhi, because how did the world become the same as the game cannot be reasonably explained without all the histories poping out of nowhere.
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Old 2013-12-31, 03:57   Link #49
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Well, the difference is.

I don't consider Mamare to be that stupid.
And let's be honest, "your monitor sucking your soul into database without any supernatural means" is completely idiotic writing, and you may feel otherwise, but I don't feel Mamare is. There's gonna be explanations beyond duplicating SAO and .hack "oh they're just trapped in a virtual reality made by evil programmer/AI/thatfreakingnerddownthestreet". I can bet you my grandmother's tombstone on that.

Frankly I believe the odds are in my favor.

If I was to make a guess, oh I dunno, the fact the very expansion that appears to have caused this is called "Homesteading the Noosphere", my money is on the collective human consciousness voodoo mumbojumbo reality bending nonsense is somehow involved.

Then there's the classic UY Beautiful Dreamer / RayEarth / Suzumiya Haruhi / MuvLuv's Sumika cliche.
I agree with your overall statement just not the specifics.

If Maoyuu Maou Yuusha is any indication, Mamare has no problems with using really generic and silly cliches and tropes; what differentiates him from the crowd is how his characters react and deal with these generic tropes. The basic premise of Maoyuu is the most tried and true convention of all: hero vs the demon lord, and we know from the confrontation with the past demon lords, and for a lot of the human nobles, that for the most part they were all just generically evil without any deep motivations beyond "because POWER!" Did that lessen Maoyuu? Not at all because that wasn't the point, the point was to take something familiar and turn it on it's head; the issues they faced were, for the most part, generic fantasy tropes but how they dealt with them made the difference.

If I somehow implied that the Catastrophe would be explained away in a single line then I apologize for my bad sentence structure and grammatical shenanigans. Allow me to clarify.

- The setting of "they're stuck in a virtual world" is just as trite and cliche as "they got transported to an alternate universe."
- There is nothing within the world or from Mamare that indicates one is more likely than the other. He's been asked about whether they're in a virtual world/alternate universe point blank and he just dodges the question by telling us to keep reading.
- Any effort to explain either of the first two assertions well would require roughly the same amount of effort and work.

On the basis of these three points there's no logical or reasonable way you can conclude that either is clearly the answer to the question of what the hell happened to cause the Catastrophe. They are both either equally valid or equally invalid.

So no, the difference isn't that you expect Mamare to be smart enough to make something amazing and I don't: the difference is that I have faith that he can take a generic and over-done trope, use it without shame, and present it in a way that will still be fresh, interesting, and intelligent because he's done it before and Log Horizon has every indication of being of a similar vein to Maoyuu.
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Old 2013-12-31, 04:06   Link #50
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Difference between sci-fi and fantasy is that, fantasy can get away with crazy and usualy unbelivable stuff (cause magic IS crazy and unbelivable), sci-fi in other hand has to mantain appearence of common sense and scientism (cause cause you know Sci in Sci-fi stand for science...).

So it would be decent fantasy premise, but stupid sci-fi. It's that simple.
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Old 2013-12-31, 04:11   Link #51
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Originally Posted by WhiteJoker View Post
I agree with your overall statement just not the specifics.

If Maoyuu Maou Yuusha is any indication, Mamare has no problems with using really generic and silly cliches and tropes;
But that's not what I'm saying.
I'm not against him using cliche, I'm saying, everything presented so far actually indicates the SAO cliche is NOT the case.

If he goes Beautiful Dreamer cliche, for example, I see no problem.
Those one-girl-reality-bending are useful in that you don't have to explain anything.
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Old 2013-12-31, 04:41   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Difference between sci-fi and fantasy is that, fantasy can get away with crazy and usualy unbelivable stuff (cause magic IS crazy and unbelivable), sci-fi in other hand has to mantain appearence of common sense and scientism (cause cause you know Sci in Sci-fi stand for science...).

So it would be decent fantasy premise, but stupid sci-fi. It's that simple.
Then your sampling of sci-fi is rather limited and your reasoning flawed because the "fi" if sci-fi stands for fiction; generally this just means that the universe's rules have to be internally consistent and react in a rational and logical fashion, it does not mean they need to conform in any particular fashion to our universe's rules and laws.

Star Trek is sci-fi and it deals with alternate universes (the Mirror Universe, heck even the current movie reboot to name just two of many more), or godly beings who mess around with people's heads because it's fun (Q). The Matrix is sci-fi and it deals with machines building a virtual reality so they can harvest energy from human bodies more efficiently. Most superhero comics are both sci-fi and fantasy in that the power origins can come from fantasty (Wonder Woman), super-science (Superman), or some form of hyper-dedication (Batman) and yet none are considered more "crazy" or "unbelievable" then the other because they're all equally ludicrous when measured to the standard of our own reality. James Cameron's Avatar deals with people remote piloting alien clone bodies and a ecosystem that has a universal neurological interface. Babylon 5 has millennia old races waging proxy wars with planet killers, mind control devices, and galactic social engineering and that's not even touching on the whole Sinclair thing... or the Sheridan thing come to think of it. The Star Child concept in 2001: A Space Odyssey is downright fantastical.

Those are just the mainstream movies/tv series which are science fiction but which deal with crazy and unbelievable things; science fiction books are even more out there about it since they don't have to cram theories and explanations into a limited time frame. Look up Clarke's Third Law if you aren't familiar with it, the tenant is very relevant to how science fiction treats a "limitation" such as "must be based on science."

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Originally Posted by aohige
But that's not what I'm saying.
I'm not against him using cliche, I'm saying, everything presented so far actually indicates the SAO cliche is NOT the case.
In which sense? That they could be trapped in a virtual world or that some evil whatever trapped them in a virtual world? If you mean the latter I agree. If you mean the former, I don't.
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Old 2013-12-31, 04:53   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Difference between sci-fi and fantasy is that, fantasy can get away with crazy and usualy unbelivable stuff (cause magic IS crazy and unbelivable), sci-fi in other hand has to mantain appearence of common sense and scientism (cause cause you know Sci in Sci-fi stand for science...).

So it would be decent fantasy premise, but stupid sci-fi. It's that simple.
That really depends on where a work of science fiction lies on the space opera -> hard sci-fi scale, to be honest.
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Old 2013-12-31, 05:11   Link #54
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That's why said "Appearence of common sense and scientism" depending where work is on scale it's either only that or real thing.

Anyway Virtual reality twist would lack either.
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Old 2013-12-31, 06:39   Link #55
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You yourself said the laws of the world must be consistent right above.

It was plainly stated in the actual story, that not only virtual world of this magnitude is implausible with the technology available, trapping people from the entire globe is even more implausible. If you are going to ignore this, or claim "it's a red herring, he's just bullshitting" then we can't really continue the argument in constructive manner.

If this is a virtual world, it's not by any believable technological means, and by that I'm not talking about our world. I'm talking in-universe.
It'd have to be aliens or Matrix-the-real-world-is-fake-too-and-the-world-is-in-far-future mumbo jumbo.
That isn't what internally consistent means or even refers to. Knowledge of the characters is knowledge of the characters and, assuming the characters are not portrayed as omniscient, inconsistent knowledge is to be expected. Internally consistent rules would be, taking our universe as an example, the laws of physics. In science fiction internal consistency does not refer to the impossibility of a sudden break through (considering the Singularity is a huge part of it that would be rather ridiculous), or even unintended consequences (also a huge part of it), but rather that should you introduce an alteration to the laws of physics, or super-science technology, that your alterations remain consistent throughout. For example, if your space ships lack the ability to negate time dilation when traveling at FTL speeds (or lack the ability to travel at FTL speeds as well) then you can't have your characters going from Earth to the Crab Nebula without also dealing with the issue of time. This extends outwards in that if your universe lacks FTL drives and you have an intergalactic empire you're going to have to spend time explaining how it exists despite it taking several years for anything to go from one system to another. We were discussing .hack earlier and while that universe didn't go into the exact mechanics of how people got trapped in the game or sent into a coma however it remained logically consistent in that something about the Data Drain skill/Data Bugs messed with the consciousness of the players despite none of them using mind-machine interfaces. Every time those skills were used on players the same result happened unless something interfered. That's what logical and internal consistency refers to not whether something exists or doesn't.

I don't recall where I ever claimed anything was a red herring. The only things I believe I've ever claimed were that there is no supported definitive explanation and what the characters choose to believe has more to do with preserving their own sanity/restoring normalcy then it does as definitive fact on the nature of the Catastrophe; it's a very prominent fact that they acknowledge they know next to nothing about it and can largely do nothing about it as well. With regards to the actual statement about the SAO plot being ridiculous, I vaguely recall the line however I can't recall the exact scene nor can I find it again. Since my recollection is pretty fuzzy and my gut feeling is that the context of the chapter is important I can't comment on it directly. I can sift through more tomorrow and try to find it however if somebody can pinpoint the volume/chapter/arc it's in I'd greatly appreciate it.
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Old 2013-12-31, 06:59   Link #56
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But you're entirely dismissing the view of in-universe characters, the meta behind it, and continuous story element.
It seems to me that you somehow firmly believe you know better about the extent of the world than the characters who live it.
Only thing that seem to matter is how you believe the world is, when there's no indication of it - and when there are information given against it, they seem to take less priority over your own imagination?

While we may enjoy a god's perspective of the story, we are still at the mercy of the characters and text in the novel to provide us information.
That takes precedence of all what-ifs we may fantasize.
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Old 2013-12-31, 10:34   Link #57
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... In that case I find .hack a rather poor series to use as a comparison. It doesn't really help our theories and speculation much if we just point to .hack and go "well, it just does."
You seem to miss the point, which WhiteJoker seems to have gotten.

To repeat myself, people have been dismissing the possibility of them being in a virtual world under the logic that it's a mouse and keyboard MMO, not a full dive MMO, and the amount of effort required to get everyone into a full dive rig without their knowledge is absurd.

My point is that no such rig is required for them to be trapped in the game. People just being essentially magically trapped in the game is something that's been done before, there's no reason it can't happen on a grand scale.

Nor can you just dismiss .hack as a poor comparison because it does not explain things and just leaves things at people being magically trapped. The whole reason it's used for a comparison in the first place is that it's one of the more prominent entries in the "trapped in a videogame" genre. More particularly, it's a quite prominent entry that's from Japan. Or to put it another way, it's part of the body of prior works that Mamare has to draw upon when deciding what he does and doesn't want to do with the story. You can't dismiss it as a bad comparison when he very well may have gone "Oh hey, you don't need a good explanation of how people are trapped to tell the story of people that are trapped which is what I want to do." after watching it.

Nor is it like .hack is the sole example in the genre of what is essentially magic being the explanation of people being trapped. An example halfway between .hack and SAO is Tad Williams' Otherland series. In a future where large parts of the internet have become a full VR environment, something in one part of the internet is inexplicably making kids fall into comas. The protagonists quest for answers eventually leads them to hacking into an absurdly realistic VR environment with NPCs that can easily be mistaken for humans. Where they process to become trapped. Nothing to do with the equipment they're using, attempts to forcibly just inexplicably cause searing pain and crashing vital signs.
Spoiler for Otherland:


In summary, magically being trapped in a more advanced version of the game is a valid possible explanation, and it cannot be dismissed out of hand simply because they aren't using any futuristic equipment to play the game. For that matter, it can't be dismissed out of hand because magic doesn't exist in our world either. Magic doesn't exist in our world, and that did not stop what is essentially magic being at play in the .hack world.

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Well, the difference is.

I don't consider Mamare to be that stupid.
And let's be honest, "your monitor sucking your soul into database without any supernatural means" is completely idiotic writing, and you may feel otherwise, but I don't feel Mamare is. There's gonna be explanations beyond duplicating SAO and .hack "oh they're just trapped in a virtual reality made by evil programmer/AI/thatfreakingnerddownthestreet". I can bet you my grandmother's tombstone on that.

Frankly I believe the odds are in my favor.

If I was to make a guess, oh I dunno, the fact the very expansion that appears to have caused this is called "Homesteading the Noosphere", my money is on the collective human consciousness voodoo mumbojumbo reality bending nonsense is somehow involved.

Then there's the classic UY Beautiful Dreamer / RayEarth / Suzumiya Haruhi / MuvLuv's Sumika cliche.
While I respect your faith in Mamare to have a solid explanation, the point is that if you wish to disprove a core plot along the SAO and .hack lines, you need better arguments against it than "Trapped in a virtual world? LOL, they use normal computers so you'd need magic to do something like that, and magic doesn't exist in a world like ours silly."Which is essentially what some of the arguments against it have been. It's those sorts of arguments that caused me to point out something I felt was being over looked.

Or to put it another way, "How they interfaced with the game" is not an argument that survives, much less proves anything, by itself.

Furthermore, with all due respect to Mamare, the fact that we are the ones debating exactly what's happened to them, and not the characters in the series, says that whether they're in a fantasy world or a virtual world really isn't that central to the story he wishes to tell.
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Old 2013-12-31, 11:50   Link #58
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Excuse me?
No one has made "better arguments" to explain a convincing reply to how this was even possible.
Not to mention it's presented as implausible in the context of the story itself.

All I see is deflection to "LOL .hack wannabe".
You may claim .hack used a "soul-sucking video game without any supernatural means pulled out of ass, therefore it could apply here".
Well, frankly, .hack plot was utter garbage. There. I said it. Typical sub-par video game plots with terribly inconsistent direction, and backdrops lacking any semblance of thought. A B-rated RPG plot, and below C- when it comes to sci-fi or fantasy.

Also Krono, I've never said "lol because magic doesn't exist in our world".
You're quoting someone else entirely, so please, tell that to whomever it actually applies to, alright?
That's completely, utterly, not even remotely my point. In fact it's OPPOSITE of my point, I completely support the idea of magic being the culprit.
So please, stop. If you're gonna shoot, aim the gun at the right freakin guy.

I mean really, if we are gonna continue to argue for the sake of argument, rather than present actual, solid, reasoning and explanation, this entire conversation is pointless. And since it's become painfully obvious that this is impossible without facts presented in all mediums - not just anime (which SKIPS a lot of it), and monir wants none of that here, it's completely pointless for me to carry on. Cheers.
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Old 2013-12-31, 12:16   Link #59
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Excuse me?
No one has made "better arguments" to explain a convincing reply to how this was even possible.
Not to mention it's presented as implausible in the context of the story itself.

All you guys have done is deflected to "LOL .hack ripoff".
You claim .hack used a "soul-sucking video game without any supernatural means, therefore it applies here".
Well, frankly, .hack plot was utter garbage. There. I said it.

I mean really, if you guys are gonna continue to argue for the sake of argument, rather than present actual, solid, reasoning and explanation, this entire conversation is pointless.
Did you actually read my first post? The one where I opened with "While I'm of the opinion that Log Horizon is a fantasy world they've been transported to, much like what happened to the main character of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance (only without the fantasy world replacing the real world aspects), there's something I don't think I've seen pointed out. "? You don't seem to have read it, and instead think I'm arguing that they're in a virtual world.

I'm making no arguments as to whether they are in a virtual world or a fantasy world. Certainly neither myself, nor other here are going "LOL .hack ripoff".

What I'm doing is point out to the people that say things along the lines of "They can't be in a virtual world because that would require some sort of supernatural soul sucking", that .hack -one of the series that almost certainly influenced Log Horizon- did just that. Therefore you can't simply dismiss the possibility out of hand as it most certainly is one of the options open to Mamare. Whether you think .hack was garbage is irrelevant, the point is that it's "pulled into the game" functions are just as much an option to Mamare as a revelation that much like Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, Elder Tales has outright overwritten their world.

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Also Krono, I've NEVER SAID "lol because magic doesn't exist in our world".
You're quoting someone else entirely, so please, tell that to whomever it actually applies to, alright?
I did not intend to say you did, the "you" I used was intended as the general "you all". I'm attempting to generally clarify my point, which is something some people, including yourself seem to have misunderstood.
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Old 2013-12-31, 12:16   Link #60
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And I guess part of it is quite Haruhi, because how did the world become the same as the game cannot be reasonably explained without all the histories poping out of nowhere.
is the ET world base on the game OR is the Game is base on the ET world? similar questions but the answer have very different meanings.
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