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Old 2013-12-31, 12:24   Link #61
aohige
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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
I'm making no arguments as to whether they are in a virtual world or a fantasy world. Certainly neither myself, nor other here are going "LOL .hack ripoff".

What I'm doing is point out to the people that say things along the lines of "They can't be in a virtual world because that would require some sort of supernatural soul sucking", that .hack -one of the series that almost certainly influenced Log Horizon- did just that. Therefore you can't simply dismiss the possibility out of hand as it most certainly is one of the options open to Mamare. Whether you think .hack was garbage is irrelevant, the point is that it's "pulled into the game" functions are just as much an option to Mamare as a revelation that much like Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, Elder Tales has outright overwritten their world.
First of all, .hack required no explanation because it needed none. Nothing in it made sense in the first place, and made no attempt to make it convincing, even by its in-universe logic. That was not the focus.
Mamare on the other hand, has made many clues to explain the situation. It's not the same thing. At all. Let me repeat, it's nowhere comparable to .hack.
The similarities end at vague conceptual point.

And besides, I'm simply against the notion that people think SAO-like plausible modern science (by the world standard) was behind the entrapment. If it involves a higher form of fantasy - be it Noosphere theory, magic, GODS, aliens, Matrix, the flying spaghetti monster, then I'll buy it.

Meaning, we're on a completely different page to begin with.


Quote:
I did not intend to say you did, the "you" I used was intended as the general "you all". I'm attempting to generally clarify my point, which is something some people, including yourself seem to have misunderstood.
Yo, when you quote me, and say something completely and utterly irrelevant to what I said, do you not think I'd take it as - oh I dunno, including me? Eh?
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Old 2013-12-31, 14:17   Link #62
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
But you're entirely dismissing the view of in-universe characters, the meta behind it, and continuous story element.
It seems to me that you somehow firmly believe you know better about the extent of the world than the characters who live it.
Only thing that seem to matter is how you believe the world is, when there's no indication of it - and when there are information given against it, they seem to take less priority over your own imagination?

While we may enjoy a god's perspective of the story, we are still at the mercy of the characters and text in the novel to provide us information.
That takes precedence of all what-ifs we may fantasize.
I don't believe you understand what meta and storytelling are. It's meta for us to consider whether what the characters are saying is objective truth or a subjective statement of intention. It's not meta for the characters to state what they intend on believing and doing just that. Storytelling is not taking what is said literally, storytelling is taking what's said within the context of the scene. You are the one ignoring what I'm saying because I am not invalidating what you claim, I am pointing out that within the context of what is said, there is nothing from the omniscient narrator perspective which indicates the nature of the world and everything said from the character perspective is informed by Volume 1 where Shiroe consciously and explicitly states that he doesn't know what the world is, he can't tell if it's virtual or real, but that it doesn't matter because to him, it's his circumstances now and as such he has to treat it as if they were real circumstances because doing otherwise could lead to bad things happening. Nothing said or seen since has changed that as in nothing said or seen since has verified whether he's in another dimension, in a virtual world, having a really detailed dream, time traveled forward a thousand years, or so forth; the story literally does not care about it and actively chooses not to address it because it's not the point.

And yes, until shown otherwise, we generally have to accept a character is a reliable narrator of events which they observe however I'm not saying they aren't unreliable narrators, I'm pointing out that Shiroe aggressively and intentionally goes out of his way to point out that he knows jackall about the nature of Catastrophe; same as all the other characters. What he uses is a working theory to inform his decision making ("I assume this all to be real so I won't act like a jackass") and not an objective truth about the world. One is character knowledge and the other is meta-speculation.
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Old 2013-12-31, 14:26   Link #63
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You totally miss the point.
I'm not telling you to take shit literally, or for granted.
I'm telling you, that since we are not GODS or Mamare himself, we rely on "information given".
The information given may be red herring, or wrong, but that's WHAT WE HAVE. As opposed to what we don't.

You cannot sit there and keep claiming that things you fantasized takes precedence over information given, when there's nothing backing it or founding it. There are evidences against your "fantasy". But there's no evidences supporting it.

I give up, you really have no idea what I meant by meta or storytelling. And trying to explain it will result in mod deletion.
Just gonna /ignore the rest and carry on, like I said, without being able to present available info, this thread is pointless anyways.
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Old 2013-12-31, 14:49   Link #64
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
You totally miss the point.
I'm not telling you to take shit literally, or for granted.
I'm telling you, that WE ARE NOT GODS OR MAMARE, therefore, we rely on "information given".
The information given may be red herring, or wrong, but that's WHAT WE HAVE. As opposed to what we don't.
And you're missing my point in which there is no information given. What Shiroe and company give is not information, it is intention. The majority of volume 1 is dealing with how they view the world and the conclusion they arrive at, which is explicitly spelled out, is that worrying about this question is utterly pointless, they have no choice but to accept it is real and work from that basis because if they don't bad things will happen. Seeing as how Mamare himself has actively gone out of his way to avoid verifying or debunking any theory on the nature of the world you cannot possibly claim that one is stronger than the other when the author's intention is clearly to either not deal with the issue at all, or to intentionally leave it a mystery until he chooses to address it at a later point (if ever); considering that Log Horizon's plot itself gives little concern or care for the matter and the focal point has always been that it really doesn't matter to the Adventurers which it actually is since from their perspective it's really happening to them.

Quote:
You cannot sit there and keep claiming that things you fantasized takes precedence over information given, when there's nothing backing it or founding it. There are evidences against your "fantasy". But there's no evidences supporting it.
And I have addressed all of that in that the context of volume 1 and the usage of alternate reality are not given as objective truths, they're given as what the characters have chosen to view their world as because to do otherwise invites insanity (which is explicitly stated as well; I quoted you one of the actual statements over PM of this which you don't seem to want to acknowledge). The word usage is a conscious decision in addressing how the characters see the world and not an objective statement of factual information about the world. To put it more abstractly, it's much like the statement "God is/is not real" in that there is no way to prove either way (short of offing yourself and seeing if you end up in an afterlife anyways, though that's not even fully certain since some belief systems don't allow for it) but the statement informs your outlook on life.

The only statement I haven't addressed is the one where Shiroe, or somebody, says that the technology to suck people into a game doesn't exist in their original world because I can't find it and see the context, nor have you provided it beyond mentioning that it's there.
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Old 2013-12-31, 15:07   Link #65
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For the last time. I'm not saying it's the objective truth. Jesus Christ, I've repeated this.
I'm saying that's all we have for now.

"They could be wrong" does not equal "They MUST be wrong because I have a better idea!"

It's not about Shiroe. It's about YOUR stance.
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Old 2013-12-31, 15:13   Link #66
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Maybe you two didn't noticed but in your recent posts, you are saying exactly same thing while eagerly disagree with each other.
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Old 2013-12-31, 15:16   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Maybe you two didn't noticed but in your recent posts, you are saying exactly same thing while eagerly disagree with each other.
Oh, I'm perfectly aware. He's the one stuck on believing that I'm saying SHIROE MUST BE RIGHT CUZ HE SAID SOOOOOO when I'm repeatedly telling him no, that's not the case. It's his lack of alternative explanation or solution with grounded context that's the issue here.

He's pretending to not understand this, or.. I dunno, I don't wanna call any names.
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Old 2013-12-31, 15:34   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Maybe you two didn't noticed but in your recent posts, you are saying exactly same thing while eagerly disagree with each other.
Close to but not quite; we're in the territory of nuance. The only difference at this point is that I'm taking the perspective of "there's nothing confirmed or invalidated" and he's taking the perspective of "this suggests that."

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
For the last time. I'm not saying it's the objective truth. Jesus Christ, I've repeated this.
I'm saying that's all we have for now.

"They could be wrong" does not equal "They MUST be wrong because I have a better idea!"

It's not about Shiroe. It's about YOUR stance.
I never said they could be wrong because they aren't. I'm saying the context of what they're discussing does not relate to what we're discussing. They're discussing how to treat the world and how they should behave. We're discussing the world setting. One is a subjective issue about decision making. The other is grounded in world building. What is argued in one does not relate to the other.

Also please stop putting words in my mouth because I have never once advanced any position as better than another. What I've been saying is that neither is superior to the other and that your claims that the virtual theory can't be right is unsupported, not that your position of the alternate universe being more likely is wrong.

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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Oh, I'm perfectly aware. He's the one stuck on believing that I'm saying SHIROE MUST BE RIGHT CUZ HE SAID SOOOOOO when I'm repeatedly telling him no, that's not the case. It's his lack of alternative explanation or solution with grounded context that's the issue here.
No, the issue is you're taking the lack of any explanation within the media as proof that what the characters are doing supports your theory or invalidates another. I'm not offering an alternative explanation or solution because the text itself doesn't offer, support, or invalidate one (and the one I do have goes into outright spoiler territory); furthermore Mamare doesn't offer, support, or invalidate any. Considering that's been my stance from the very beginning of this discussion and I outright stated it several times I don't see where you're getting the impression I'm supporting or invalidating any theory.
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Old 2013-12-31, 15:39   Link #69
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Originally Posted by WhiteJoker View Post
I never said they could be wrong because they aren't. I'm saying the context of what they're discussing does not relate to what we're discussing. They're discussing how to treat the world and how they should behave. We're discussing the world setting. One is a subjective issue about decision making. The other is grounded in world building. What is argued in one does not relate to the other.
Holy Jesus, I'm 100% convinced you are pulling strings for shits and giggles now.
None of that meant anything substantial. Not having a concrete answer does not equal everything is fair game, or equally plausible you know?
Don't pull this zen BS on me bro, there are such things as likely and less likely.

There are MOUNTAINS of evidences that makes your "theory" far less plausible than the alternative. But I cannot give them out. I am entirely crippled by the rule of the thread.

And since I cannot present my case here, I'm calling quits.
Keep your pet theories, whatever, I don't care.
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Old 2013-12-31, 15:52   Link #70
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Holy Jesus, I'm 100% convinced you are pulling strings for shits and giggles now.
None of that meant anything substantial.

There are MOUNTAINS of evidences that makes your "theory" far less plausible than the alternative. But I cannot give them out. I am entirely crippled by the rule of the thread.

And since I cannot present my case here, I'm calling quits.
Keep your pet theories, whatever, I don't give a damn.
And that would be the difference I was talking about.

I'm also fairly certain you aren't actually reading what I'm saying because you're still insisting I have a theory when I outright stated that I don't, not unless you count "both base theories are unsupported and not addressed" as a theory.
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Old 2013-12-31, 21:22   Link #71
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Originally Posted by WhiteJoker View Post
You're focusing on the wrong thing. "They couldn't be trapped in a virtual world because they don't use any mind-machine interface systems" is the same as saying "they couldn't have been transported to an alternate reality with magic because magic doesn't exist in the universe they came from." There is no key difference because explaining how magic from one universe worked on another, where magic doesn't exist, is the same suspension-of-disbelief effort as explaining how an analogue interface sucked somebody's consciousness out. Magic existing in Log Horizon is no more proof of anything than the overlays and game-y nature is.

To clarify, I am not supporting the virtual reality theory anymore then I am supporting the alternate universe theory (my actual stance is spoilery so I can't talk about it) but rather that with what we know currently there is absolutely nothing that indicates anything either way.
No, I am focusing on the right thing here. When assuming a parallel world theory, the other world performing acts should be taken into account. We currently have two "main" (and I use the term loosely) theories:

1: They are sucked into another world via magic.

2: They are trapped in an actual game.

Theory one assumes magic is the cause of this ordeal. Where does the magic come from? The world of Elder Tale, with its confirmed presence of magic.

Theory two assumes some form of technology captured the people inside the game. Where does this technology come from? No idea, because there is no sign whatsoever of earth's technology being above our level.

Neither theory is proven, but one side's theory actually works with the world as we've seen it so far, while the other has nothing to even provide a basis for the theory.
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Old 2013-12-31, 21:47   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
is the ET world base on the game OR is the Game is base on the ET world? similar questions but the answer have very different meanings.
Ah, that's very different. The cause-effect is opposed between these two.

I was under the assumption that the ET world is based on the game, because the setting of ET world is based on earth, yet it's half gaia and all that make the physics somewhat incomplete. And how the society evolved into such status is quite questionable. Zone information have "Server" entry which only make sense when there is a server. But then the ET world we see right now has history, every Lander have their life, and the society is actually there. (perhaps we should leave the history part until next week) So I think it IS a reality, but probably based on the game.

To think outside the story, the whole genre is based on the idea that a virtual world is a reality of its own right, even if it is running on some servers. Just that in Log Horizon this alternative reality seems to be running outside the game, which leads to the question of how did the history of ET world come to existence. But it still can be the case that the game was actually an interface to the ET world instead, given enough reasoning.
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Old 2013-12-31, 22:24   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Neither theory is proven, but one side's theory actually works with the world as we've seen it so far, while the other has nothing to even provide a basis for the theory.
Pretty much this. Magic within the context of the world of the Elder Tales is a given. So it somehow being involved in transporting a large group of people from earth to this new world isn't really all that outlandish in the context of magic existing. The virtual reality simulation...there simply is NOT technology in real world earth that could do what happened during the Apocalypse. You need aliens for that to make sense.


An alternate world advocate can say "Magic brought us here", and wave a wand around to prove the magic transportation theory isn't totally unreasonable. A virtual reality advocate can't really point at the aliens or Nanomachine powered super computers that could hypothetically be responsible for the current situation.
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Old 2013-12-31, 23:24   Link #74
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Or maybe this ET world , just part of shiroe dream wkwkwk.
Maybe the truth is....shiroe just fell asleep in front of his PC while patching elder tale . And he having a dream about trapped in ET game ( maybe its because , while waiting the update is finish .shiroe watch SAO or .//hack LOL )

Its sound ridiculous , but if mamare make this kind of ending....everyone gonna lose their mind . And this ending became "the biggest troll in anime history" wkwkwk
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Old 2014-01-01, 03:31   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
No, I am focusing on the right thing here. When assuming a parallel world theory, the other world performing acts should be taken into account. We currently have two "main" (and I use the term loosely) theories:

1: They are sucked into another world via magic.

2: They are trapped in an actual game.

Theory one assumes magic is the cause of this ordeal. Where does the magic come from? The world of Elder Tale, with its confirmed presence of magic.

Theory two assumes some form of technology captured the people inside the game. Where does this technology come from? No idea, because there is no sign whatsoever of earth's technology being above our level.

Neither theory is proven, but one side's theory actually works with the world as we've seen it so far, while the other has nothing to even provide a basis for the theory.
My point that I've been trying to get at is pretty much that the claim that "Theory two assumes some form of technology captured the people inside the game" is false. They can just as easily be trapped in an actual game via magic or psychic powers. Both have been done before, with one of the cases being a series that likely influenced the author. So theory two assumes nothing other than that they are trapped in an actual game.
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Old 2014-01-01, 04:14   Link #76
ices
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Then, i'll propose theory number 3.

They all just a bunch of soul/AI with a fabricated memories. The adventurer got a memories of living in a "real" world playing a game named ELDER TALE. And in other side, the lander got memories of living in a fantasy world called ELDER TALE. Both of them aren't human. The one who behind all of this is the actual human.

So, in other words. They all just a bunch of data inside a Database. Database. Just living in the database... wow... wow... (the wall of pure fiction's cracking in my head...)

ok... ok... sorry... yeah, we're ready for the punch line!
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Old 2014-01-01, 07:12   Link #77
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That's theory number 4.

1.Paralel world (plasauble)
2.Virtual reality (Implasauble)
3.Game IS world (plasauble)
4.They are AI in databese (Implasauble for same reasons as n.2)
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Old 2014-01-01, 07:21   Link #78
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
My point that I've been trying to get at is pretty much that the claim that "Theory two assumes some form of technology captured the people inside the game" is false. They can just as easily be trapped in an actual game via magic or psychic powers. Both have been done before, with one of the cases being a series that likely influenced the author. So theory two assumes nothing other than that they are trapped in an actual game.
Which stumbles on the same problem the tech one does: There is no sign of earth having magic. That's the key difference. Theory one at the very least has a potential source for the transfer to take place, theory two has none.

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Then, i'll propose theory number 3.

They all just a bunch of soul/AI with a fabricated memories. The adventurer got a memories of living in a "real" world playing a game named ELDER TALE. And in other side, the lander got memories of living in a fantasy world called ELDER TALE. Both of them aren't human. The one who behind all of this is the actual human.

So, in other words. They all just a bunch of data inside a Database. Database. Just living in the database... wow... wow... (the wall of pure fiction's cracking in my head...)

ok... ok... sorry... yeah, we're ready for the punch line!
Problem with that one is that the manga shows the people in the real world actually physically disappeared. So for that one to work, the real world has to be fake as well.
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Old 2014-01-01, 08:28   Link #79
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Problem with that one is that the manga shows the people in the real world actually physically disappeared. So for that one to work, the real world has to be fake as well.
Actually I think use the manga as a basis is not a good idea. Because in the setting documents the official settings and parallel works settings are marked in different colors. But it doesn't harm to take it as a reference of one of the more likely possibilities.
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Old 2014-01-01, 12:22   Link #80
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
My point that I've been trying to get at is pretty much that the claim that "Theory two assumes some form of technology captured the people inside the game" is false. They can just as easily be trapped in an actual game via magic or psychic powers. Both have been done before, with one of the cases being a series that likely influenced the author. So theory two assumes nothing other than that they are trapped in an actual game.
Except as has been pointed out by many people, outside of the surface similarity, the Elder Tales world they're is nothing like the game. The People of the Land act like real people, and things can be done in this world that could NEVER be done in the game (Steam Engines). At this point, there's no good basis for assuming that the players somehow exist within the confines of the actual real world Elder Tales game server. There are simply too many things that are different from an actual video game. There's really no basis at this point to not treat Elder Tales like it was a real alternate world.

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Which stumbles on the same problem the tech one does: There is no sign of earth having magic. That's the key difference. Theory one at the very least has a potential source for the transfer to take place, theory two has none.
This. This so much.

If Elder Tales is real (and all the not yet quantified magic and supernatural stuff in it), then you have an explanation for how the Apoc might have happened, even if you don't know the specific details. At least you HAVE examples of magic on hand to back up the theory.


If Elder Tales is fake, well... "Hypothetical Aliens/Espers/Wizards are tricking us to believe we've been transported to a magical world" is much more convoluted than actually just being in a magical world. Namely since you can't actually demonstrate evidence that these alternate Aliens/Espers/Wizards actually exist.
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