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Old 2003-11-19, 17:00   Link #21
Neko no Makai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanazuchi
Are all of these stories from the chicago tribune?? You should go research some more, I hate it when uneducated people try to make my country look bad...
Kanazuchi if u think this country is all angels and horns. You are just about 90% of the population that dont know WTF is going on in the government. Try listening to public radio or read non-profit newspapers. they have the truth and facts. Also,this government is more corrupt then u think, although most governments are, we arnt the exception. Why dont u take a look at the vise president. Wonder why he is going to get millions, even billions when the oil market opens up. And even now, if u think that some immigrant is going to be taking your job, u better be more worried that the same company doesnt move down into mexico just for lower wages. BTW since bush's administration favors big business, most likely they might agree on that "Free Trade" that the FTAA has proposed on, thus resulting in niether you or Mr. Carlos getting a job. So how is your great country look? If u think thats all this government has done to make it look bad, thats just the tip of the iceburg, there is countless things they have done, even this year.
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Old 2003-11-19, 17:08   Link #22
kanazuchi
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Yay, finally somebody who knows what they are talking about

I know that the US govnt isn't the the most honest group of people out there, but they did end up outsing a dictator and getting really rich at the same time

Seriously though, some of the things that the US has done may be concidered imoral by some, but there is a fine line line between doing whats right for the country, and doing whats right. (dont know if you understand what I said, if you dont Ill try to explain)
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Old 2003-11-19, 17:23   Link #23
Neko no Makai
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Heh, i understand. But there is no incident where any country has did anything good for anyone, without something in return. believe me, there is always an ulterior motive.
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Old 2003-11-19, 17:25   Link #24
tsurumaru
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Sadly it appears that racism is something that is endemic in most cultures, not that I condone it at all.
It's pretty pathetic but a lot of people make up for their own inadequacies by blaming their misfortunes on "outsiders" who might live slightly different lives, they should look at bit closer to home for the real reason to their problems....
By the way I'm a white guy living in the UK and unfortunately I see a lot of racism usually perpetrated by ignorant people, who are unwilling to look beyond stereotypes and accept that race should not really affect how you perceive a person.
I've travelled to many countries including Australia, Japan and the US and seen racism displayed by their citizens too so I wouldn't say this is something that occurs only here.
I don't think it helps though when immigrants in a new country build large ethnic communities (were not talking "china town" here or any other integrated area) that may feel isolating to the local majority people, I'm not saying they shouldn't be built at all but I am saying that in this very difficult subject that people need to understand each other before they can accept each other. Of course not doing this runs against human nature as who would want to live completely seperated from people of their own culture? However I believe from what I've seen that putting people from the same culture together in their own large community with no integration into their new country only breeds distrust between the immigrant and original communities.

This is indeed a very difficult subject, ultimately no one wants racism but does anyone have any real solutions?
Human beings have the ability to do the very best of things but also the very worst of things.........
Ultimately it is our own nature and perceptions we must challenge if we want to make any real progress......
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Old 2003-11-19, 17:35   Link #25
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media bias aside, the laws that are being made concerning immigration are to make a semblance of security for the citizens of the nation, mainly by making it harder for 'suspect' nations and organizations based in said nations to send people in for various reasons..

are the laws fair? probably not. are they not fair for a reason? yes. and all this doesn't change the fact that illegals are still illegal, no matter how much some people are trying to dodge that (mainly in positions of power, not anyone here... that i've seen)
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Old 2003-11-19, 18:04   Link #26
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I agree media is bias toward many issues. Take CNN for example it is always pro American. I still remember after 911, they show the clip where WTC collapsed everyday. It is kinda sicken me. Many ppl died already and why do you need to remind everyone about what happened. News like this only promotes anger among other people and nothing else.

Back to the topic.
Racism is happening everything. The problem is with the cultural differences that we are having. I am a Chinese currently living in Canada. Eventhough Canada is a "multi-cultural" country, racism is still happening everyday in our streets. I think it is human nature that we don't want to approach anything that is foreign. We always build a wall to protect ourselves from the people that we don't know. It is also this wall that make us seperate. To remove this "invisable" wall will take lots of time and effort. I really hope that one day that we can all join hands together and forget about all the hatred of the past and move along together ...
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Old 2003-11-19, 18:10   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenrihr
media bias aside, the laws that are being made concerning immigration are to make a semblance of security for the citizens of the nation, mainly by making it harder for 'suspect' nations and organizations based in said nations to send people in for various reasons..

are the laws fair? probably not. are they not fair for a reason? yes. and all this doesn't change the fact that illegals are still illegal, no matter how much some people are trying to dodge that (mainly in positions of power, not anyone here... that i've seen)
Beautiful, couldn't have said it better.
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Old 2003-11-19, 18:41   Link #28
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
Hunter is right. Racism exists everywhere in all countries.

Now racism from the government is serious but it's not exactly a new thing. It has happened in practically EVERY country and it still does happen in some. Christians and non-Bhuddist worshippers in China were abused by the Chinese government for decades and still suffer as a 2nd class religion. Another example? Aboriginals in Australia.. Their mistreatment during these past decades are also well documented. And one can argue that for several decades, the Japanese (yes the same Japanese that make your favorite animes) were accused of being some of the most racist people when it came to business. Prior to these 10-20 years, the Japanese market was basically an unfair and closed market to foreigners. Companies in Japan spearheaded competition by forming monopolies (legal in Japan) and performing various business practices which would be considered highly illegal in other countries. The Japanese government also favored Japanese products by adding huge tariffs, weird business laws that penalized foreign companies for entering the japanese market and placing "burdens" on consumers who bough non-Japanese products. For example, if a japanese person bought a car from Ford or Europe, he was guaranteed to get audited. Combining all these practices made Japan an unbreakable market for foreigners to enter and a one-way trade relationship. It was only in these past two decades when other countries including the US decided they had enough of the unfair practice and slapped Japan with huge tariffs and basically even out the competition.

also to add to the original case:

1. the US is @ war with terrorism. Unfortunately for Muslims, a large portion of these terrorist come from these countries. Is this unfair? yes. but many things are unfair in life...
2. other countries do it too. it may be harder to acquire a US visa if you come from a country of high suspect (Muslim countries) but we're not the only countries who do it now. Australia and England and others have their own laws that make it harder for Arabs to come into their country.
2. the guy who was deported had an expired visa. he was LEGALLY deported. is it unfair? yeah. but there are more deplorable things to bitch about in other countries such as the mistreatment of women in Africa and Muslim countries or children/women trafficking in asian countries. at least we didn't whoop his ass with a baboo stick for an hour or two on his way out...
Sadly I agree with most of your point, but I don't think that because there is many other country which are really worst than US, you must accept the situation.
With this reasonning, the government of China isn't that bad because the government of North Korea is worst.
The example pointed here was an illegal immigrant, this is true, but it's not the only case, there is plenty of them, look that if you want an other example.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...tory/National/ (it's long, if you're lazy don't bother to look)

If tomorow a law which say that the muslim has no right to take the same bus than the other people is make, will you say that this is not serious? that's unfair but at least legal and there are worst thing in another places?
Well maybe you will say that, but I can't agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
I know that the US govnt isn't the the most honest group of people out there, but they did end up outsing a dictator and getting really rich at the same time
And you think there is something to smile here?
Yeah at least Saddam Hussein was 'driven out', it's the only good thing that I see for the moment even if he's not captured.
But so what?
Many thousands of death for the Iraki (without speaking of the million of people died during the embargo) and 1 or 2 US soldiers dying all days.
And the life of the Iraqi is better?
There is something like 30 or 40 terrorist attack per day in Bagdad, the population hate Saddam, but they hate the American too.
I hope that the situation will be better, but I don't believe it.
For the moment it's become worst and worst.
This war cost billion and billion dollars and during the same time, the people in Bush government gain millions and millions dollars.
If at least the security of the US was increased, but franckly it's not the case.

So yeah i don't want to smile.
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Old 2003-11-19, 18:45   Link #29
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Did you read the rest of what I posted, that wasn't meant to be a serious comment...
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Old 2003-11-19, 19:00   Link #30
RyuTengu
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The fact is that there are a lot of things that we dont understand, mainly because we are misinformed. Most of you believe what the newspapers and media cram into your minds, and thats fine. Its your right to believe in what you want to believe and only the people who are doing it know what the truth is. (even though they dont tell us) I dont know how to put this, but most of the world is filled with incompetent morons who jump to conclusions from the first thing they hear. They are willing to believe anything and are easily manipulated and molded into the citizens that the country/world wants you to be. In a way, judging from the responses on these forums, i can understand why its best to leave everyone in the dark. What people dont know, wont hurt them.. or something like that. Anyways, go on believing in what you want and make all the assumptions to make yourself feel that u are not lost and confused on these issues. In the end, you are the cattle and the underground people that run this world will hurd you anyway they want to.
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Old 2003-11-19, 19:20   Link #31
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanazuchi
Did you read the rest of what I posted, that wasn't meant to be a serious comment...
I read, that's why I disagree.
Indeed there are no country which act just for kindness, the decisions of the governments of all the country in the world are taken for the interest of their country.
So I could understand if the acts of the Bush government was right for the country even if they aren't Right with a big R.

But I don't think this is the case, I don't think that the way of acting of this government is the right thing for the US, only for the people in the government itself.
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Old 2003-11-19, 20:27   Link #32
FinFangFoom
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I'm sorry but that artical was a piece of crap. I thought it was funny how the writer ignores important facts and instead concentrates on stupid trite things like

Quote:
A smaller, more anxious cluster of boys and men met the deportees. One young man stood dressed in a white "New York, New York" T-shirt, complete with the Statue of Liberty and the World Trade Center. His brother had been living in Brooklyn, working at a chain store before he was detained.
Why do we care what kind of shirt he is wares and what does that have to do with anything?! I garuntee you if any of them had been wareing a "Not my president" T-shirt with George Bush's picture on it, he would edit that part out. Completely biased writing.


Like it has been stated by quite a few people so far, THEY ARE ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS to begin with so they don't really belong here. I have no problem if getting rid of the illegal aliens is low on the priority list normally but high under different circumstances. There is so much illegal crap going on and only so much man power to stop it. You have to pick and choose what you focus on, based on what is better for your country as a whole. And say what you want about if it's fair or not, but how many attacks have there been in the U.S since 9/11 and the changes in policy it brought about? ZERO. As long as they are treated humainly and only deported if they are illegal, I can't find fault with what the government is doing.

Serioulsy, with everything wrong that the U.S government does (which is a lot of things) why concentrate on critizing one of the few things it is doing half right.
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Old 2003-11-19, 21:14   Link #33
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinFangFoom
I'm sorry but that artical was a piece of crap. I thought it was funny how the writer ignores important facts and instead concentrates on stupid trite things like
[...]
Like it has been stated by quite a few people so far, THEY ARE ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS to begin with so they don't really belong here.
lol congrat, you took 3 lines out of the subject to resume an article which you obviously didn't even read more than a paragraph, knowing that it didn't even talk about an illegal imigrant.
But make my day give me one important fact that the writer ignored.


Quote:
And say what you want about if it's fair or not, but how many attacks have there been in the U.S since 9/11 and the changes in policy it brought about? ZERO.
Retarded argument.
How many attacks have there been in the U.S before the 9/11?
How many attacks have there been in other country which suffer of the terrorism but which don't follow the same policy?

There isn't terrorism attack until the next one.
If this kind of policy worked, that would make a long time that there would be no more attack in Israel.

Quote:
As long as they are treated humainly and only deported if they are illegal, I can't find fault with what the government is doing.
Thank to prove once again that you don't bother to read the article before answering.
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Old 2003-11-19, 21:19   Link #34
Mr. Bushido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Voodoo
Now thats a racist remark.

Just becuse whites have a history of opression through out history, dosent mean that every white person todayis a racist. What leads you to this assumption anyways?

Your the one that sounds like a racist by sterotyping different cultures in to such fixed roles.
btw this is by stats. Sorry u didnt know this, but it was not only surveyed in the 1940s, it was EXPIERENCED by more than enough ppl. Want examples?

My teacher who is japanese went on a trip to Virginia, entered a coffee house and guess what? EVERYONE IN THERE TURNS AROUND AND STARES AT HIS FAMILY FOR ABOUT 5 MIN THEN TURNS BACK AROUND AND STARTS MUMBLING. Yea tats pretty racist i think.

the native americans were shot just for fun all the way until the 1980s ooooooo yea i love u texan.

have u watched comedy central? "All these white ppl are scared all the time." "All asians look alike" "Look at that mexican with his pickup truck"

do u live in a predomintaly jew area? i do, and when theres a lot, they look down on everyone else. I hear "oh you eat dogs right?" everyday from them.


SORRY I LIKE TO BELIEVE EVERYONE IS NICE AND LOVING BUT THATS NOT TRUE. i never said ALL ppl are like that, but the ppl that get away with racism. And u see it everyday, u honestly think racism dont exist? Ok if ure black, jew, or white, im sorry i didnt mean it as a stereotype, but when i turn on tvs or walk by ppl at school its never been anyone else giving me or others racist remarks.

i think the most racist country is AMerica, where i am from u ask? AMERICA.
From my expierence id like to say that koreans (yea like me) are generally racists too, but from stats South Korea got rated friendliest country to foreigners last year, so i kinda said... "guess krns arent so racist anymore?"

TRUTH ARE TRUTHS. Its only been 60 yrs since american put japanese ppl in concetration camps, Jews were put in them too, blacks were not allowed in a regular army, and women werent allowed to vote. YOu honestly think in 40 yrs ull fix all of this? ANd its a PROVEN (YES SEVERAL TIMES IN HISTORY) THAT THE VICTIMS OF RACISM ARE OFTEN THE MOST RACIST IN THE NEXT GENERATION. Look at the IRish and Germans in America during 18th century, they were rejected they were hated. in the 19th century THEY hated the CHINESE. its like... dont u learn? So its well known that african americans have said more racists jokes than most other ppl. (by stats again)

About the Jews thing, its mostly a joke, especially in where we live since most our friends here are jews we just joke. But... there was a PASSIVE NAZI meeting cuz if u didnt know they are a political party in our country, and some guy holding up a israel flag ran to attack the speakers, than the speaker himself. Oh yea makes u feel nice about them? BTW israel was palestine, and giving them a spot of land and taking over the rest, then not even listening to wat they say... hmmm.....

racism will go on forever, cuz its even taught in schools. Open up a history book, does it talk about the horrors of the american genocide of the indians? Not really (unless ure in college us history or AP) but does it talk about the horrors of the holocaust and the chinese genocide of the japanese? OH YEA.

i dont hate any race. Its just gets me mad when white house and the mutli-cultrual places like CA and NY are agaisnt racism and such, but once i get out of CA and walk into Georgia, Virgina, or other southern state, im all of a sudden a corporate stealer, a Nip (im not even japanese), or a damn N korean communist. sorry, ive had MY expierences, and the only thing that doesnt make me utterly hate these ppl, is the fact that most of them are nice good ppl, and the fact that here in CA no one is really like that.
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Old 2003-11-19, 21:54   Link #35
Neko no Makai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuTengu
The fact is that there are a lot of things that we dont understand, mainly because we are misinformed. Most of you believe what the newspapers and media cram into your minds, and thats fine. Its your right to believe in what you want to believe and only the people who are doing it know what the truth is. (even though they dont tell us) I dont know how to put this, but most of the world is filled with incompetent morons who jump to conclusions from the first thing they hear. They are willing to believe anything and are easily manipulated and molded into the citizens that the country/world wants you to be. In a way, judging from the responses on these forums, i can understand why its best to leave everyone in the dark. What people dont know, wont hurt them.. or something like that. Anyways, go on believing in what you want and make all the assumptions to make yourself feel that u are not lost and confused on these issues. In the end, you are the cattle and the underground people that run this world will hurd you anyway they want to.
RyuTengu Sorry to say, but u have just described the perfect government as a totalism, where government thinks citizens are too stupid to make their own descion and must be ruled over like a bunch of brainless robots. If you like that type of life great. but just to let you know, this country was built to oppose that exact concept.



Zoro U forgot to add that segregation of schools only had just ended near the late 70s Early 80s
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Old 2003-11-19, 22:22   Link #36
Vulkar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoro
racism will go on forever, cuz its even taught in schools. Open up a history book, does it talk about the horrors of the american genocide of the indians? Not really (unless ure in college us history or AP) but does it talk about the horrors of the holocaust and the chinese genocide of the japanese? OH YEA.
sorry. I had to disagree with this. When I was in High School and in Junior High (I'm in college now) history books did in fact teach about the genocide of the Native Americans during the 19th Century and no, we did not learn about the Chinese genocide of the Japanese. Why is this? Because the history courses focused on American History and not World History. Secondly, in schools cultural critique is quite popular and a lot of each textbook was devoted to the various wrongs perpetrated throughout American History. for example: slavery in the south, land theft and relocation directed at Native Americans, worker abuse during the industrial age, Sacco and Vinzetti, Japanese Internment Camps, McCarthyism, Jim Crow laws, massacres during the Vietnam war, and CIA backed dictators. Now granted I only went to public, and they only follow the national curriculum...so I'd say in fact a great deal of time is devoted the wrongs perpetrated by my country by persecution and racism. I'm what your source for your wild statements about our history books is (maybe you skipped history class or went to one of those private schools with different interests than most), but I feel I should label you most incorrect.

Secondly, I do wish people, including yourself, would not refer to supposed sources without actually citing them. So, if you have a link to these "stats" taken 60 years ago that you refer to repeatedly, I would like to see them. If no web link is reproducible, feel free to cite a book or a document. Many of us at the forum are students at colleges and universities and most likely could easy obtain a copy of whatever proof of your statements you produce. I really want to see the stats. Needless to say, if you want to say something absurd back it up with something, Zoro. After all, anyone can make up "stats." I mean, I have stats in...umm...my desk that prove there is a race of green elves living in Greenland. They're just as reliable as your stats at the moment.
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Old 2003-11-19, 22:29   Link #37
Neko no Makai
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When i went to school, we had american and global history. and i did remember topics from the rape of nanking in china to the holocaust to american racism to irish imigrants
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Old 2003-11-19, 22:36   Link #38
RyuTengu
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Zorro, its sad that your so narrow minded. It may be because of your youth and you cant see things from another point of view rather than your own. I'm not trying to say that there isnt racism in the US, but you seem to act like it exists only there.

Take into consideration that the US is one of the most advanced multi-cultural countries in the world. Also take into consideration that all this happened in about a 50 year time period, can u not understand why people are upset? imagine if all the white people decided to up and leave the US and live in korea. How would you feel about that change? Not only that, but we refused to learn the korean language and only spoke english. I would imagine that everyone would treat us even worse than how u are being treated here in the US.

Also, dont treat it like whites dont get racism either. Your american just like me and i get the same treatment back from asians. Ex: The 2 asian women that i've dated, their parents were completley against the partnership. I recieved a lot of rude comments and eventually had to break it off because they were getting hassled by their parents. Although asians arent as upfront with the comments and expressions, you feel the same way about us. Whats worse, is that i'm receiving this treatment in the country that I grew up in. =P
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Old 2003-11-19, 22:43   Link #39
RyuTengu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neko no Makai
RyuTengu Sorry to say, but u have just described the perfect government as a totalism, where government thinks citizens are too stupid to make their own descion and must be ruled over like a bunch of brainless robots. If you like that type of life great. but just to let you know, this country was built to oppose that exact concept.



Zoro U forgot to add that segregation of schools only had just ended near the late 70s Early 80s
I dont care about the beliefs that this country was built appon.. how the country is run now and how the country was run back then are totally different. Your also in no position to say that the country isnt run like that right now, just like i'm in no position to say that it is. My whole point of posting that was to point out that it could be possible that its the case and no one here could be able to argue that fact because your only knownledge of the US is what they tell you on TV and newspapers. Which can be easily changed...
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Old 2003-11-19, 22:48   Link #40
Neko no Makai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuTengu
My whole point of posting that was to point out that it could be possible that its the case and no one here could be able to argue that fact because your only knownledge of the US is what they tell you on TV and newspapers. Which can be easily changed...
Good thing im not one of those people corrupted by american media. its propaganda, PROPAGANDA IM TELLING YOU. XD

Although i agree most people dont know what the hell is going on. I dont believe that because of that we must exlude them.
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