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Old 2014-02-23, 02:38   Link #41
starlol
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I rarely ship the main character with the wrong partner so I haven't really experienced it.
But I was surprised with the ending of Kokoro Connect. The 1 that I shipped and did not expect to end up with the main guy turns out to be the 1 who did. When I first started this series I thought she's the 2nd main girl.
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Old 2014-02-23, 03:38   Link #42
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I'm pretty much the opposite. I usually find myself drawn towards one of the losing ships, even though I can pretty much predict what the final ship would be. Watching romance series can get excruciating for me since it usually ends up with me clinging on to that minute chance that my chosen ship wins.

There's two main reasons why the ships I support tend to lose. First, I watch anime for the characters, and not the plot. I derive more enjoyment from watching series with strong characterisation and lousy plot than vice versa. Because of that, my shipping preferences are based on whether I like a particular character, and not whether they make overall sense in the plot. I don't support a pairing because their relationship makes sense, but because I like the characters in the pair. This, of course, is not a recipe for winning.

Secondly, the characters that I support tend to share certain common characteristics that should, theoretically, be independent of the final result. Simple statistics suggests that choosing characters based on a variable that is uncorrelated to the final result would lead to low winrate.
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Old 2014-02-23, 14:31   Link #43
Haak
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I've generally gone for the ships that makes the most sense from a narrative sense, even if I like another girl more. Because even if I like another girl, I'm not always sold on their relationship with the guy. For example, in Toradora, I liked Minori more than Taiga but with Taiga and Ryuuji having been through so much, their relationship just felt far more substantial to me.

There are also some cases where I think the chemistry between the main pairing is "meh" or not very good but I'll end up supporting it anyway because it's the one that I think the narrative clearly supports and having it end up differently would require substantial/fundamental changes to the story (For example, in Suisei no Gargantia i was still in the Amy camp when people were thinking Ledo made a better match with Bellows). Sometimes I'll still support it even if the I find the girl downright unbearable (e.g Haruhi Suzumiya)

So if my chosen girl does end up losing, that usually means I'm of the opinion that not only did my chosen girl have better chemistry with the guy but that the narrative pretty much forces her to lose in a contrived manner. Examples include:
  • Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai - Technically this hasn't finished yet and i don't know what happens in the Novels but I'm pretty sure it's going to end up KodakaxYozora
  • Golden Time - Originally I was still rooting for Koko due to reasons stated in the second paragraph above but now I've switched to Linda.
  • Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate - Though I don't know why i even bothered to care since I hated the story so much.
  • Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo - Girl Next Door Syndrome x 1000.
  • True Tears - That God damn hug scene...

I also find that I'm often very sympathetic to the "Girl Next Door" character that is already in love with the MC but gets unlucky and has to a deal with some magical girl or narrative equivalent suddenly swooping in who the Girl Next Door doesn't have a chance in hell with because it just feels like they're written to lose. But I don't necessarily support an end pairing with them. I just want them to have an ending where they don't have to feel like they've lost some sort of competition (because that's a bad to view love) and hope they find someone else they can be happy with. Some examples include:
  • Ano Natsu de Matteru
  • Guilty Crown - This one was particularly tragic
  • Kamisama no Memochou
  • Kannagi
  • Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo
  • Sankarea - I don't know why though...
  • Tasogare Otome x Amneisa - A bit of a technicality but still.
  • Yozakura Quartet - Touka isn't really this but she definitely gives that vibe.
I've noticed that I generally usually find them sympathetic if they're established before said magical girl swoops in.
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Old 2014-02-23, 14:58   Link #44
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I think the only time when I was really disappointed with the end couple, was with GE - Good Ending. The end girl was more or less clear, but the way the story later on turned out and progressed made me simply stop caring about the end girl and partially the MC at all. Again, that's without any regard nor interest in all the meta stuff and also to a large part due to my positive bias towards the losing girl (who only started to gain a massive affection boost in my book during her "re-appearance")

Otherwise, I'm more of a "most likable girl = desire to be end girl" type . I rooted for Mashiro in Sakurasou, Airi in Mashiro-iro Symphony (although I liked Miu also as to not mind the anime outcome) and maybe other examples I can't remember due to my near loss of interest in anime.
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Old 2014-02-23, 15:23   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
There have been times when I supported OTPs. One strong example is Horizon Ariadust and Toori Aoi from Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon, which is pretty much established at the start of the series.



Same, but sadly it doesn't happen all the time.

Spoiler for Oreimo:

Omg I just finished watching that and I hated the ending. The shows Ive watched that had someone picked Ive supported it so far. This show I did not.
Spoiler for Oreimo:
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Old 2014-02-23, 20:00   Link #46
Marcus H.
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Chemistry really helps in garnering support for a particular pairing. This is why I supported Taiga and Ryuuji in Toradora and Shana and Yuuji in Shakugan no Shana but not Aria H. Kanzaki and Kinji Tohyama in Hidan no Aria. Simply put, there was little to no romance to be seen in the Aria-Kinji pairing based on the event on the anime. KugiRie pairings aside, in Oreimo, I supported Ayase for Kyousuke for their lovely chemistry.

Spoiler for Oreimo, Plot Detail:


I don't have any issues with main pairings in general. I could still remember being a fan of Victorique de Blois and Kazuya Kujo (Gosick), Hitagi and Araragi (Monogatari Series), Rikka and Yuuta (Chuunibyou), and many others. I haven't watched Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate and Kimi ni Todoke though (see anime list link on my sig), so aside from Haganai and Oreimo (supporting Rika Shiguma and either Ruri Gokou or Ayase Aragaki respectively), there's still a chance that more would be added to my list of supported non-main pairings.
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Old 2014-02-23, 20:47   Link #47
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I would strongly suggest you to spare yourself the pain of watching KoiChoco, it has a nonsensical and awkwardly paced plot (and also, cannot decide if it is a spy/political thriller, or an harem), and in the romance side of things, it spends more than 3/4 of the show's run building up one pair, and then abruptŮy switches to another.
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Old 2014-02-23, 23:01   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Oh, so that means Noe is better than Hiromi. Gotcha.


---

In all seriousness though, great points.
Better relationship vs better person, I think is the main point. But in the context of True Tears, Noe actually has the more depth from a storytelling perspective.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post

I feel that there's no such thing as a meaningless pairing in anime ever. That's what visual novels and their adaptations often say. That said, there are relationships that are better than others, but that's almost always objective.
Pretty sure I'm gonna borrow Mio Nishizono's book of pairings to make you think twice, lol.

There's a reason why we don't validate crackships. If you could just arbitrarily pair any two characters then that is absolutely no meaning and I feel then there's no point in having characters to begin with.

Quote:
Anyway, I feel a bit surprised seeing that there seem to be a lot more people are capable of looking at romance stories from a neutral standpoint. Taking sides when it comes to who gets who seem to have become second nature to me, so the risk of ruining my enjoyment of that series because of the author choosing that girl over another is always present. You can't blame me, though. I can't possibly support the relationship of a character that has a lot of personality issues, for example.
Romance can be an intriguing component, but some series are more suitable than others.

Quote:
Spoiler for Oreimo:


Well, it seems that LN romance trends often go with contact between members of the established OTP -> introduction of "competitors" -> raising flags for said competitors -> competitors lose to OTP -> END. The part with "introduction of "competitors" -> raising flags for said competitors" is what bothers me.
Mm... seems to show up in a lot of LN series.

This is what happens when you make characters that aren't characters, but shills for your leads. They're characters whose purpose is defined by the "target". In other words, if Kirino didn't exist, they literally would have no motive or cognitive thought whatsoever.

"So how's the weather? What are you doing tomorrow night? What are your hobbies besides the ones Kirino likes?"
"Error... does not compute."

I also felt this about Bakemonogatari initially. In fact, I felt Nisemonogatari did the right thing by not constantly talking about Senjougahara and honestly the moments that did include her got more effective. Then again, I have very little respect for that franchise, and marginally more for Shaft, so I'm not really one to talk. I ship them with the Moon. Though at the very least the personalities are well enough established in that series and consistent enough to make romantic endeavors reasonable within context and it did go around knocking from other angles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
[*]Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai - Technically this hasn't finished yet and i don't know what happens in the Novels but I'm pretty sure it's going to end up KodakaxYozora
If Oreimo and Shana didn't exist, I'd say this is one of the worst romantic plot lines that I've ever witnessed. I have never seen a series default to one romantic possibility and push so fucking hard in the other direction and having fuckass to deal with. Yozora being flanderized into being more of a hateful sociopath (was funny at first) and then Sena being portrayed as the relatively less venomous victim does not help matters. Granted I only watched season 1, but it's highly unlikely it could ever make it into anything besides softcore porn.

Spoiler for Haganai:


Quote:
[*]True Tears - That God damn hug scene...
Oh, I'm not exactly sure which one that is.

But yea in any cases, I don't really oppose any of the above pairings in a vacuum but it is heavily dependent on whether or not I like the narrative.
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Old 2014-02-23, 23:25   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
So if my chosen girl does end up losing, that usually means I'm of the opinion that not only did my chosen girl have better chemistry with the guy but that the narrative pretty much forces her to lose in a contrived manner. Examples include:
  • Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai - Technically this hasn't finished yet and i don't know what happens in the Novels but I'm pretty sure it's going to end up KodakaxYozora
  • Golden Time - Originally I was still rooting for Koko due to reasons stated in the second paragraph above but now I've switched to Linda.
  • Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate - Though I don't know why i even bothered to care since I hated the story so much.
  • Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo - Girl Next Door Syndrome x 1000.
  • True Tears - That God damn hug scene...
See, this is how arguments get started about this stuff. Some of those examples... there's no way that I could agree that "the narrative pretty much forces [them] to lose in a contrived manner", and not necessarily because it's my favourite pairing. But the problem is that any time you try to get into an argument about it, it comes across as though "you just preferred the other pairing". The only one I can more-or-less agree with is KoiChoco, for the reason I explained in my previous post -- but even then the bigger issue is that the plot was just trying to do too many things at once. Haganai is a draw because the story isn't finished yet.

But I guess you're sort of drawing a contrast between the couple you felt had the best chemistry in the story, and the story the author wanted to tell. And I suppose I place a little bit more emphasis on the narrative themes established in the premise. I personally can sometimes have a hard time buying into the chemistry of a couple if the pairing would seem to run counter to the narrative themes. Sometimes I play the story out and ask myself "if this happened, how would it resolve the elements setup with the other heroines?"... and then on that basis I realize what is only a ruse.

OreImo is a prime case for this. There were only so many ways the story could go and still be true to the core elements established in the premise, particularly with the way things had built up since the end of the first act. People often make the argument that the chosen heroine was contrived, but I don't think this holds up to a serious analysis of the themes and developing plot elements. But perhaps it feels contrived because the "chemistry" between the lead and some of the other heroines was much more convincing to the audience, so they could not understand why the protagonist would make the choice he did when it seemed like there were better options. But, then again, this nagging pull was actually a repeated theme whose volume and intensity increased as the story went on to the point where the actual "turn" was rather clear.

I could write an essay on True Tears, and have already said more than enough in other threads... but here too, this is a story with multiple plot threads, and only one way to successfully tie up all the loose ends, even though this means that the ending is bittersweet for the story's main heroine -- which too is true to the premise and title. I understand 100% where many people felt that the main heroine had "better chemistry" and "deserved to win"... but you would have left plot threads dangling in that case. I think it had to go the way it did so that everything would be resolved cleanly, unless other elements earlier in the story were changed.

So anyway... this is my main annoyance about this topic. Totally understand when people say they're disappointed in an ending because the heroine they liked ended up heartbroken. But when it crosses into arguing that the ending was contrived... I think that's a harder argument to make, but whether the argument is solid or not, it immediately gets the "support" of people who liked the other pairing. It becomes nearly impossible to have an actual discussion of the story without various degrees of "my favourite heroine didn't win; this story is absolute shit!" significantly muddying the waters.
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Old 2014-02-24, 00:52   Link #50
Marcus H.
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Quote:
So anyway... this is my main annoyance about this topic. Totally understand when people say they're disappointed in an ending because the heroine they liked ended up heartbroken. But when it crosses into arguing that the ending was contrived... I think that's a harder argument to make, but whether the argument is solid or not, it immediately gets the "support" of people who liked the other pairing. It becomes nearly impossible to have an actual discussion of the story without various degrees of "my favourite heroine didn't win; this story is absolute shit!" significantly muddying the waters.
But then again, if all we talk about a series with pairing is what the canon has already established, then that would be a very boring experience. Well, I'm happy enough to have people talk about what they truly feel should end up with the male lead; at least it's not "somewhere else" where they indulge themselves in the tears of the supporters of "those who lost".

Quote:
OreImo is a prime case for this. There were only so many ways the story could go and still be true to the core elements established in the premise, particularly with the way things had built up since the end of the first act. People often make the argument that the chosen heroine was contrived, but I don't think this holds up to a serious analysis of the themes and developing plot elements. But perhaps it feels contrived because the "chemistry" between the lead and some of the other heroines was much more convincing to the audience, so they could not understand why the protagonist would make the choice he did when it seemed like there were better options. But, then again, this nagging pull was actually a repeated theme whose volume and intensity increased as the story went on to the point where the actual "turn" was rather clear.
Oreimo was simply a story set in a controlled environment. I'd compare it to an ant farm as opposed to a sandbox. Oreimo's story elements include an almost exclusive Kyousuke point of view, a handful of people as the core characters and a small supportive cast that doesn't contribute much to the story. It allows the story to focus more on the character development of the core characters in exchange for making the rest of the cast almost irrelevant.

I wouldn't blame them if Oreimo's story felt contrived because the progress of the story is claustrophobic in a sense. Since everything in the main story is told in the eyes of Kyousuke Kousaka, we're unable to fully grasp the lives of the other characters outside of Kyousuke's field of view.

Sure, some people seem contented about how the story went, but after the finale, I think a lot of people would have wanted more about the story than just the Kousaka siblings.
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Old 2014-02-24, 05:27   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
But then again, if all we talk about a series with pairing is what the canon has already established, then that would be a very boring experience. Well, I'm happy enough to have people talk about what they truly feel should end up with the male lead; at least it's not "somewhere else" where they indulge themselves in the tears of the supporters of "those who lost".
Well, of course people should discuss their opinion and have favourite heroines and pairings -- no opposition to that. I'm not saying people have to like the resulting pairing, but I just sometimes think people are a bit to quick to rush to the "it doesn't make sense!" conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Sure, some people seem contented about how the story went, but after the finale, I think a lot of people would have wanted more about the story than just the Kousaka siblings.
Maybe, but the time to fix that would have been much, much earlier in the story. Implying that the story should have gone off and done this at the very end (as some were doing at the time) wouldn't really make all that much sense. Of course, there were other ways of writing the ending so that it still would have revolved around the siblings, too.

It's a bit of a "the stories I would have liked to have seen would have been more enjoyable to me than what was shown", and I think that opinion is totally fair... even if it was probably too late for the author to change their mind. The conversation about the story's "claustrophobic focus" is at least an interesting argument, because it's considering the story as a whole and the impact the author's decision had on the way parts and pieces played out.
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Old 2014-02-24, 06:35   Link #52
Haak
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
See, this is how arguments get started about this stuff. Some of those examples... there's no way that I could agree that "the narrative pretty much forces [them] to lose in a contrived manner", and not necessarily because it's my favourite pairing. But the problem is that any time you try to get into an argument about it, it comes across as though "you just preferred the other pairing". The only one I can more-or-less agree with is KoiChoco, for the reason I explained in my previous post -- but even then the bigger issue is that the plot was just trying to do too many things at once. Haganai is a draw because the story isn't finished yet.
To clarfiy, I very much agree with everything you said in the second paragraph. If the narrative wants to tell me that this pairing is the best one, then I'm usually willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. The narrative is important and to me it doesn't always make sense to support another pairing that would go against the narrative. Because that's like saying you want to sacrifice consistency in storytelling for the sake of a pairing you happen to like more.

It's only in rare cases where I think that not only was the chemistry great between a lost pairing but that their relationship and development was so much more substantial and meaningful than the true pairing that I honestly think the narrative is too superficial and doesn't justify it enough. It's about weighing up both sides and making an assessment. The problem is that lots of people like to talk about in Black & White terms (or simply talk about the conclusions of their beliefs without mentioning what pros and cons they weighed up to get to that conclusion) hence why it often feels like "you just preferred the other pairing", but even then I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they've probably made the same judgement call. But I don't get into a lot of those arguments so maybe I'm just being optimistic...

Quote:
I could write an essay on True Tears, and have already said more than enough in other threads... but here too, this is a story with multiple plot threads, and only one way to successfully tie up all the loose ends, even though this means that the ending is bittersweet for the story's main heroine -- which too is true to the premise and title. I understand 100% where many people felt that the main heroine had "better chemistry" and "deserved to win"... but you would have left plot threads dangling in that case. I think it had to go the way it did so that everything would be resolved cleanly, unless other elements earlier in the story were changed.
For me True Tears was an example of what I say above. I've not read any threads on True Tears so I'm never really sure if I'm always on the same page on others when we talk about plot threads, loose ends and the narrative themes of the show, but the ones that I could identify from watching the show just felt too superficial or vague or could easily be changed. I'm basing this all on memory though. It's been a long time since I watched the show, but from what I recall I think I got annoyed because...
Spoiler for True Tears:


But even then I don't recall disliking Hiromi or anything. If the story needs to satisfy loose ends and fit a certain narrative and if that means Hiromi should "win" then fair enough but the problem still remains in whether it feels natural or contrived. A Dues Ex Machina is a device that's often required to resolve things a particular way that's necessary to the follow the narrative but that doesn't make it any less contrived (I'm not saying True Tears had DEM's btw, it's just an example). One of the reasons I kept getting annoyed with Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai is because I'd wish Yozora had more focus and sometimes better characterization to justify Sena's eventual loss (I know I'm still making assumptions about the ending but whatever). So even at this stage, I'm still trying very hard to like the true pairing because if I can that automatically makes me feels a lot better about my chosen girl "losing". So really I think it's more about the justifications and its execution rather than the end result.

[EDIT]

And btw, I decidedly don't give as much fucks about OreImo than the rest of the community seems to. Personally I thought the story was always more about exploring the brother sister relationship than any real romance. In fact I often felt like the romance with other girls was just there to be used as a device to explore the brother sistyer relationship and I can't fault it there either. Whether a person would choose between their family/sister or a girl they love romantically is not a straightforward question. Even then I felt like they were hinting at a KyousukexKuroneko ending so...
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Last edited by Haak; 2014-02-24 at 11:04.
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Old 2014-02-24, 07:55   Link #53
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Personally I thought the story was always more about exploring the brother sister relationship than any real romance.
If that is the case, then the first season and its OVAs were all we need for the story of Oreimo.
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Old 2014-02-24, 08:02   Link #54
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People still fighting over True Tears and its ending? Cmon guys... it's 2014. Let's fight over White Album 2 .

Both series are bloody brilliant and if you disliked the ending of either you are wrong /myopinion
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Old 2014-02-24, 08:28   Link #55
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Nothing to fight over in WA2 ... it was just perfect!

Aohige: For me, School Rumble was highly instructive: It showed that even manga authors are not almighty beyond retribution. It was the one time I know of where a manga author was consciously p*ssing into the faces of his fans. And he paid the price for it: He lost a huge part of his fanbase in one day. The same day that I decided never ever to spend a cent on any project affiliated with the author anymore.

The "extra" chapters were lousy half-assed attempts to placate the angry fanbase. Too little, too late.
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Old 2014-02-24, 10:07   Link #56
Marcus H.
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Aohige: For me, School Rumble was highly instructive: It showed that even manga authors are not almighty beyond retribution. It was the one time I know of where a manga author was consciously p*ssing into the faces of his fans. And he paid the price for it: He lost a huge part of his fanbase in one day. The same day that I decided never ever to spend a cent on any project affiliated with the author anymore.

The "extra" chapters were lousy half-assed attempts to placate the angry fanbase. Too little, too late.
I bet it was the bad kind of rage, not the good one that "inspires" Seo Kouji to spit out more works.
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Old 2014-02-24, 10:19   Link #57
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i still have nightmares from the chosen girl in the anime of Hoshizora e Kakaru Hashi, Why pick the girl who has no interest outside of food......so many great girls to choose from and he goes with that one....
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Old 2014-02-24, 15:06   Link #58
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As for Haak's note about True Tears, I definitely felt that was a contrivance that almost feels like it was waved away. And not to mention the double whammy of

Spoiler for TT:


I feel this and the melodrama post episode 9 to really drop the value of the series and thus was emotionally disconnected with the ending.

But I realized there's a moment of brilliance that at the end that gives it the small edge over good series like White Album 2. (Well, that and True Tears made better use of its stills, but that's another story!).

Spoiler for True Tears, turn the chessboard around:
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Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2014-02-25 at 00:51.
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Old 2014-02-24, 15:11   Link #59
Tenzen12
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Nothing to fight over in WA2 ... it was just perfect!

Aohige: For me, School Rumble was highly instructive: It showed that even manga authors are not almighty beyond retribution. It was the one time I know of where a manga author was consciously p*ssing into the faces of his fans. And he paid the price for it: He lost a huge part of his fanbase in one day. The same day that I decided never ever to spend a cent on any project affiliated with the author anymore.

The "extra" chapters were lousy half-assed attempts to placate the angry fanbase. Too little, too late.
Can you elaborate that a bit? I don't know much of background.
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Old 2014-02-24, 19:15   Link #60
relentlessflame
 
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Spoiler for True Tears, turn the chessboard around:
Spoiler for True Tears:
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