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Old 2014-02-24, 20:10   Link #61
Marcus H.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing
In the end, it sorta made sense why the winning relationship seemed so underwhelming to me-- it's not really the most important thing. What's more important that all these three left as better people to face the future of which they'll find happiness; effectively everyone "wins" in the long run[...]
I don't think I can accept that. That basically means that if I misunderstand it, then I screwed up bad.
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Old 2014-02-24, 22:55   Link #62
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I don't think I can accept that. That basically means that if I misunderstand it, then I screwed up bad.
I think it is extremely easy for all of us (I don't exclude myself) to get caught up in the emotions of the show and miss some of the thematic elements the first time around. I also find this is particular hard if you're watching a show from week-to-week because you forget details from one week to the next (I prefer to watch shows in batches partly for this reason). But usually, upon rewatch, knowing the ultimate destination, these threads and the related signs/hints become more visible and start to make more sense. (I know that when I first watched KgNE, I was pretty wrecked with emotion and didn't fully understand the story and the ending until I re-examined it and studied what was going on and why things went the way they did. Then, upon reflection, it made much more sense to me.)

While I don't think any opinions are necessarily wrong, I do think it's possible for people to misunderstand the plot and then get mad that the story didn't end in the way they were hoping for. In these cases, sometimes people offer objective-sounding justifications for their dislike that, in my opinion, don't really hold up to a serious analysis of the plot.
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Old 2014-02-24, 23:52   Link #63
Dawnstorm
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Heh, for what it's worth, I do think Shinichiro made a shitty decision, and I think the anime neither agrees nor disagrees with me, but the anime does agree with me on the point that it's his decision. I don't disagree with anything relentlessflame said, but the way it's phrased seems to ignore important developments... (He said he could write a paper on the show; so could I, but this is not the True Tears thread. )

So from my perfrence True Tears looks like this:

Best girl wins? Absolutely not.
Best couple wins? Probably not.
The couple that makes the most dramatic sense? Definitely.

[Poor Aiko. Does anyone root for her? ]
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Old 2014-02-25, 00:11   Link #64
monir
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Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
[Poor Aiko. Does anyone root for her? ]
Who was that again?

I agree that figuring out the thematic approach to a show pretty much breaks down the major oncoming plot points (including romance, pairing etc). ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentless
While I don't think any opinions are necessarily wrong, I do think it's possible for people to misunderstand the plot and then get mad that the story didn't end in the way they were hoping for. In these cases, sometimes people offer objective-sounding justifications for their dislike that, in my opinion, don't really hold up to a serious analysis of the plot.
I must note one objection to the above... a good execution of the storytelling is just as crucial at selling the plot point which helps to dissuade a lot of those arguments against why it should have been done differently. There are few anime where I could see where the plot was going, but it was still difficult to take it in stride based on how it was laid out. True Tears was one of the exceptional anime in that regard where the story never wavered from what it wanted to do, how it was going to do it and then complemented the plot with well executed attention-to-detail to lay it all out. By episode 3 I already knew who the eventual pairing was going to be and then it just persisted with good reasoning toward the question "why that pairing?" Unfortunately not all anime stories that persist with the grave matter of romance tend to carry things out like True Tears, so the murmurs of dissatisfaction are louder in some stories than others.

So in an essence I can sometime muster more sympathy to the grumbling of a certain stories than others even if I was able to see what the plot had in store for us.
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Old 2014-02-25, 04:17   Link #65
Arya
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Well, despite I also agree that True Tears made it clear at the end of episode 3 which pairing would have been at the end, I could have never bet anything on it (say like I could with WA2 after the very very beginning of ep. 2).
Spoiler for True Tears:

On a side note for all the reasons written by Archon_Wing and relentlessflame I can't put WA2 on tier with True Tears, despite I loved that series (that is not ended yet, btw)
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Old 2014-02-25, 04:51   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Spoiler for True Tears:
Well, you were tired of what you perceived as "I don't like what happened, blah!" style complaints in this thread so I went with something that works. While going over what doesn't work to people is somewhat useful at times, I think it's more effective to actually discuss something that does work even if people ranting is more humorous and we have all those "butthurt" jokes.

As for realizing it, I think a lot of people may have come across it but weren't able to bring it to focus because it fell outside the realm of expectations and wasn't something one would ordinarily look out out for. So yea, I definitely thought it was brilliant because it took advantage of something the audience takes for granted.

Now, I don't deny that the romantic aspect is a compelling part and it's not unreasonable to take that focus but it is somewhat unfortunate that there was all this nice storytelling and many were stuck on one aspect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I don't think I can accept that. That basically means that if I misunderstand it, then I screwed up bad.
You can only learn by admitting you made mistakes. One's opinions of a show can be dynamic and ever changing. It doesn't just end when you enter a number into MAL or vote in an AS impressions thread. A lot of shows have aged well over time when I unearthed stuff I didn't notice before. And a few got worse, but hey, that's life.
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Old 2014-02-25, 05:07   Link #67
Fireminer
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Hmm... A simple question: Have anyone see a Masterpiece anime that leads to this situation? Putting the main character into choosing mutiply love choice?

For me:

Code Geass: No

Death Note: No

Fullmetal: No

Berseker: No

Rose of Versailes: Like Fruit Basket below

Fruit Basket: Not really, since it's a girl

Macross: Yes

Evangelion: Shinji will run away before making that choice.

What I meaning is, how many romance anime are there is deserved to go into textbook, into history? I always feel there is something in Romantic materials that anime couldn't illustrate, unlike literature or music. Love in anime... It misses the Thirst for Perfection. Seldomly do we see a character becoming better through Love - Last time I saw is was in Ghibil movies.

Without Ideals to Bonds, Roads to Travel together, Aspects to Perfect, the only role of shipping is for self-perfection - A.K.A you don't saw the character as a human, as your friend.
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Old 2014-02-25, 05:30   Link #68
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
I must note one objection to the above... a good execution of the storytelling is just as crucial at selling the plot point which helps to dissuade a lot of those arguments against why it should have been done differently. There are few anime where I could see where the plot was going, but it was still difficult to take it in stride based on how it was laid out. True Tears was one of the exceptional anime in that regard where the story never wavered from what it wanted to do, how it was going to do it and then complemented the plot with well executed attention-to-detail to lay it all out. By episode 3 I already knew who the eventual pairing was going to be and then it just persisted with good reasoning toward the question "why that pairing?" Unfortunately not all anime stories that persist with the grave matter of romance tend to carry things out like True Tears, so the murmurs of dissatisfaction are louder in some stories than others.

So in an essence I can sometime muster more sympathy to the grumbling of a certain stories than others even if I was able to see what the plot had in store for us.
Very fair, and I can agree with that.

If you're going to have an argument about storytelling execution, I think the first question you need to ask is: what was the author trying to accomplish through the plot? You can usually get big hints of this as you go (particularly since many anime follow the "essay style" of writing: say what you're going to say, say it, then say what you said), but it's easiest to see this when you get to the end and you can tie the start and the ending together.

In the cases where the execution is weak, even in retrospect, the path toward the conclusion is convoluted or needlessly obscured. Of course, I'm not talking about plot twists that are necessary to keep things interesting. But even plot twists should contribute in some way to the central themes and develop meaningfully towards the conclusion.

I can definitely think of romantic anime where, along those lines, the execution may have compromised the author's message to some degree, or at the very least made the author's message look a bit callous or shallow. Sometimes this has to do with weaknesses inherent to the adaptation -- particularly trying to cram way too much content into too short of a time frame. Sometimes, it may betray the fact that story really didn't even all that cohesive of a theme/message in the first place, and was just taking the viewer along for the ride.

But, by the same token, I can also think of cases where others have accused a story of these very sorts of things, and I just can't agree based on the way I interpreted the central themes/messages. But perhaps this is because I can be a bit more forgiving of certain obstacles so long as I can see how all the pieces fit together -- as I believe you pointed out before, once I see what the author is "trying to do", I tend to focus more on that and subconsciously dismiss or minimize things that might distract. This makes it a bit harder for me to be sympathetic to certain arguments because I've fixated enough on the pattern that it's hard for me to not see it. But, in then end, this is why the perspective of other viewers is valuable, even if I can't necessarily always quite follow the other arguments all the way through.
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Old 2014-02-25, 05:55   Link #69
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Spoiler for True Tears:
Spoiler for True Tears:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
As for Haak's note about True Tears, I definitely felt that was a contrivance that almost feels like it was waved away. And not to mention the double whammy of

Spoiler for TT:


I feel this and the melodrama post episode 9 to really drop the value of the series and thus was emotionally disconnected with the ending.

But I realized there's a moment of brilliance that at the end that gives it the small edge over good series like White Album 2. (Well, that and True Tears made better use of its stills, but that's another story!).

Spoiler for True Tears, turn the chessboard around:
Spoiler for True Tears:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I don't think I can accept that. That basically means that if I misunderstand it, then I screwed up bad.
Well then too bad.
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Old 2014-02-25, 07:56   Link #70
Marcus H.
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Quote:
Well then too bad.
Way to put salt on my wounds, Haak. Fortunately, I don't actively pick up romance series because God knows what would have happened if I joined the White Album discussions. I think my head would turn into mush.
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Old 2014-02-25, 23:01   Link #71
Sackett
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
Hmm... A simple question: Have anyone see a Masterpiece anime that leads to this situation? Putting the main character into choosing mutiply love choice?

What I meaning is, how many romance anime are there is deserved to go into textbook, into history? I always feel there is something in Romantic materials that anime couldn't illustrate, unlike literature or music. Love in anime... It misses the Thirst for Perfection. Seldomly do we see a character becoming better through Love - Last time I saw is was in Ghibil movies.

Without Ideals to Bonds, Roads to Travel together, Aspects to Perfect, the only role of shipping is for self-perfection - A.K.A you don't saw the character as a human, as your friend.
Maison Ikkoku. I repeat, Maison Ikkoku. Godai definitely changes significantly over the show and he does have to make a choice.

Cross Game and Touch are both also masterpiece romance anime. Although they aren't as "multiple choice."

Kimagure Orange Road is usually considered a romance masterpiece and it had a strong love triangle.
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Old 2014-02-26, 17:04   Link #72
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
[...]
What I meaning is, how many romance anime are there is deserved to go into textbook, into history? I always feel there is something in Romantic materials that anime couldn't illustrate, unlike literature or music. Love in anime... It misses the Thirst for Perfection. Seldomly do we see a character becoming better through Love - Last time I saw is was in Ghibil movies.

Without Ideals to Bonds, Roads to Travel together, Aspects to Perfect, the only role of shipping is for self-perfection - A.K.A you don't saw the character as a human, as your friend.
When I was reading this, I for some reason immidietly had to think about "The World God only Knows"
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Old 2014-02-26, 20:02   Link #73
Fireminer
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Yeah, I could see Keima getting warmer and more caring to this world. But then again, he isn't in love.

Yet. Hope it's Haqua.
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Old 2014-03-11, 22:16   Link #74
kresslia
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I just don't get butthurt. I don't think I've ever been unable to predict who would end up with who in a show, anime hits you over the head with the main couple.

Like lol Gundam SEED. Let's get Kira and Fllay to hook up, but make sure to couple him with Lacus in every. single. opening!
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Old 2014-03-12, 08:31   Link #75
germanturkey
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i love it. jump into this thread, see the two most discussed shows are True Tears and White Album 2, which are both top 5 romance animes in my opinion. the ship i go for rarely loses out, so i guess i'm fortunate enough to not have to deal with the losing emotions.. the ones where i have gotten them wrong (and full on know it) are:

Clannad - Tomoyo and Kyou were both definitely better
Honey and Clover - Ayu (oh god, so tragic)
Code Geass - Shirley
Guilty Crown - Hare

also: that hug scene. the first time i watched it, i paused it and clapped for a minute. something similar happened in White Album too.
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Old 2014-03-16, 15:42   Link #76
NightbatŪ
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Heheh, this thread reminds me a little of the Shuffle "storm" that hit a few years ago
Was funny to see a portion of the membership go to battle with each other over their favorite
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Old 2014-03-17, 16:02   Link #77
Traece
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More often than not I think that when a heroine loses their battle for love, the ensuing backlash is more projection than disagreement with the plot. Someone briefly touched at this earlier, and I agree with what was said. It's not about the writing, it's about the viewers. Viewers want to see the girl they like the most get the man (ironically, I might add, for several reasons). Sometimes the girl is the better girl (sometimes literally every other girl is the better girl. Y'all know who I'm referring to), and thus people think she was the most deserving. More often than not though, the focus shifts to the winner and that serves as the indication.

Currently D-Frag! is like this for me. I want the girl I like more to win, but I know she wont. I'm not bothered by it though, because I know that the writing supports the choice being made. There's nothing outlandish here, except for my personal preference. :P
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Old 2014-03-19, 08:44   Link #78
Tenzen12
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There is one motion in anime I can't never agree: In most time winning girl means girl with most issues. If you have strong girl who support protagonist whole time and emotional cripple who need depend on others you don't have to think twice who will win.

Same goes for damsell in distress I still waiting (probably pointlessly) for anime where protagonist safe kidnapped princess and ask her for to be bridesmade of his fellow female warior who helped safe he ass.

Whenever I see this motion it count as "Defeat romance" for me as I always considered love to be partnership insteed babisiting.
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Old 2014-03-22, 16:34   Link #79
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Maison Ikkoku. I repeat, Maison Ikkoku. Godai definitely changes significantly over the show and he does have to make a choice.
The choice is always obvious for Godai, he only loves one girl throughout.

If anything Kyouko makes more of the choice but again there is never any doubt who she will choose.

So I don't really think Maison Ikkoku has love triangles in the traditional sense, those love triangles were more road blocks for the end couple which you know from the first chapter.
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Old 2014-03-23, 20:38   Link #80
germanturkey
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So I don't really think Maison Ikkoku has love triangles in the traditional sense, those love triangles were more road blocks for the end couple which you know from the first chapter.
this is the case with a lot of shows. most people are just too stubborn to see it.
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