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Old 2014-03-05, 12:42   Link #41
ZGoten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
He is weakest of the crew.
He can beat Nami any day in my opinion.
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Old 2014-03-05, 12:46   Link #42
K. Shiruto
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Come to think of it, what could have Usopp done in this situation? The dwarves were knocked out and Robin got turned into a toy. If they capture him it's over. Running away was the most logical option.

What is putting people's thoughts about Usopp in conflict are his words at the end. And as I said, that's nothing but a fake out.
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Old 2014-03-05, 12:53   Link #43
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Didn't Sugar forget to make a contract with Robin? If that is the case, she can still act. Even if it's limited. Not even Sugar knows that she is part of the SH crew anymore, so she may be the one to make Sugar eat the spice in the end.

Also I think that Usopp forgetting Robin is a major aspect here. He is much much more reliable, whenever someone from the crew is present, but then he suddenly thought that he was the only one from his crew there and it also makes the whole "blame it on Franky" business more understandable.
Not to mention what do you think would happen when he tried to face them alone? He would probably fail and be turned into a toy. It is really cowardly, but on the other hand a frontal attack won't help much either.

Another possible trigger for him to get past his cowardice is when he gets really really REALLY angry about something, like someone completely looking down on his crew or one of his friends, like when he tried to get away in Enies Lobby but then met the 2 giants that were tricked by the marines and the most notable one: When he taunted Lucchi to get Luffy to resume the fight, which I see as the bravest action of him in this series until now.

Also lol @Kinemon successfully deceiving Trebol and Sugar, good job!
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:00   Link #44
Eleutheria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
Don't mind it but, I think there's a big mistranslation in that panel. Actually, the entire chapter is filled with bad translations.

Knowing Oda this will turn out to be some mind conflict due to the desperation or a split personality.

I went back and read the raw. Usopp's speech bubbles say the following (re-translation without looking at scans, original punctuation kept, all errors are my own; the words in square brackets are my guesses since Japanese sometimes leaves out the pronoun and relies on context - such as "Why not coming!!?" below):

Quote:
The escape was a success!!
Forgive me...!! Tontatta tribe
Oh right, I'll

Draw your brave visages into a picture book to tell later generations of the "Honest Tontattas"

It's a great title! If I live, it's gonna happen!!
Anyway [the guy] at fault here is Franky!!

Why isn't [he] coming!!?
Who's gonna die for a lie of being a hero
Bastards!!!
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:03   Link #45
K. Shiruto
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Precisely. If Usopp had stayed there he would have also been captured, and Sugar and Trebol would have recognized his face instantly. Running was the better option.

Of course the problem people have is not the act of running but what he says while doing so, which might be associated to the fact Robin got turned into a toy.
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:08   Link #46
Eleutheria
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I can't see it as a fake out because you don't ordinarily use cowardice as a cliffhanger.

I agree with the other posters that such speeches are what Usopp usually says - but that was pre-timeskip and before his asskicking heroics on fishman island.

Consequently:-
1. If he is being true to his nature, that's very sad given the fishman island events.

2. If he is not being true to his nature, i.e. he's not really thinking what he's thinking, then we have a case of the fourth wall being broken here. It's internal monologue; we've never seen internal monologue being untrue in more than half a thousand chapters.

Character regression sucks so much. It's only his body that's become buff, not his heart.


P.S.: his snot is running out. That's always been the truest sign in One Piece for emotional turmoil. Snot never lies.
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:14   Link #47
K. Shiruto
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I don't know. The way Usopp is acting may very well be associated to the fact Robin has been turned into a toy. Usually Usopp has more confidence when he's with someone else.
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:18   Link #48
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleutheria View Post
I can't see it as a fake out because you don't ordinarily use cowardice as a cliffhanger.

I agree with the other posters that such speeches are what Usopp usually says - but that was pre-timeskip and before his asskicking heroics on fishman island.

Consequently:-
1. If he is being true to his nature, that's very sad given the fishman island events.

2. If he is not being true to his nature, i.e. he's not really thinking what he's thinking, then we have a case of the fourth wall being broken here. It's internal monologue; we've never seen internal monologue being untrue in more than half a thousand chapters.

Character regression sucks so much. It's only his body that's become buff, not his heart.


P.S.: his snot is running out. That's always been the truest sign in One Piece for emotional turmoil. Snot never lies.
There is a difference in power level though. The Fishmen were weaklings and Ussopp was surrounded by his crew, who always radiate some kind of "confidence" that Ussopp is absorbing. He actually even said himself along the lines of "Since they are weak, I can take care of them" on Punk Hazard when sniping Buffalo and Baby5.

Ussopp is only afraid of people that he considers his enemies and he thinks are too strong for him to handle.

EDIT: @K. Shiruto: Exactly.
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:25   Link #49
Eleutheria
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@K. Shiruto and @Greyzone

I can accept that reasoning. It's much easier to be brave when you're with a crowd of much stronger beings (fishman island, perhaps enies lobby).

I guess I'm just hung up about the craven internal dialogue even if it's a "tactical withdrawal" instead of a "fly you fools".
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:27   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
He is weakest of the crew.
The crew of the future Pirate King.

Strawhats worst is equal to most crews best.

Or would be if he got over his cowardice.
You are right that even the weakest in the Strawhat crew would be strongest than most.

But I don't believe Usopp is the weakest in the crew. I can't see Nami taking a 4 ton hammer to the head and shrugging it off like it was nothing.

The sniper of the crew would not end up being in the bottom half of the crew in terms of power.

His cowardice is especially annoying when he is actually not as weak as he thinks he is. And a little cowardice does not really matter, but Oda has dragged this one for too long. I wonder why he is writing Usopp like this.
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:30   Link #51
K. Shiruto
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You know, now I think about it this discussion is utter stupid.

Why is Usopp's behaviour bad for his character? He's facing with two powerful enemies, he's the only one who can do something, and he's just making excuses while at the same time lying to himself. Robing getting turned into a toy just made him lost all confidence, as Usopp has now forgotten her and is feeling he's been alone all the time, which in turn is no wonder he's blaming all to Franky (which is just another excuse). As a result of all that mindfuck, Usopp panicked.

Seriously, I understand there's nothing wrong with the last panel, just Usopp being Usopp: first running, then planning something to turn the tables. That he has learned from his past mistakes doesn't mean he will never commit those same mistakes again, people.
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:35   Link #52
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Running away isn't the issue here. If his thoughts were on how to successfully get away and how running away rather than getting captured (since getting captured would not help their cause) would be the better choice here, then I'd be cool with it. A strategic retreat is not cowardly. You are keeping a calm head, trying to make the correct decision and planning out your next move, not abandoning your comrades.

The problem is that he is rationalizing his cowardice. This was not a well thought out strategic move. It was a knee jerk reaction. After EL and 2 years of training, his character should have shown some progress by now. Not only is he giving up on the faeries, he is even blaming Franky for their predicament.

Running away could be seen as a smart move or a cowardly move, and in this case, Usopp was not being smart.
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:35   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
What else do you need than Trebol's statement to understand that Leo and his people tried it one more time?
A Panel of Leo making another attack, thus showing he still had the energy to keep fighting with the others

Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
Come to think of it, what could have Usopp done in this situation?
Tabasco Star...
Or any of the dozen's of tricks he should have picked up in the past 2 years of training so that he would be ready to face the dangers of the new world and support Luffy

Though i should step away from Ussop for a bit to talk about the positives of the chapter. His cowardice is just a stain on otherwise good chapter
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone
Didn't Sugar forget to make a contract with Robin? If that is the case, she can still act. Even if it's limited. Not even Sugar knows that she is part of the SH crew anymore, so she may be the one to make Sugar eat the spice in the end.
True, in a sense she ended up touching robin from a distance; she may not even know where Robin's toy form is. Though I do wonder if Sugar herself does forget who the toys are, or if her powers allow her to remember... Makes one wonder; does Doflamingo know that the tin soldier was Kryos, or does he just think he's a rebellious toy that is a minor annoyance in his kingdom? If sugar remembers who the toys were, she would have informed him... though if Doflamingo remembered who he was, i would think he would place a higher priority on tracking him down and getting rid of him

I am interested in how things will play out for Robin. One of the crew turning into a toy is something I had been expecting. The idea of the crew forgetting about one of their friends just seems too interesting a topic to gloss over. It can be very heart-achingly tragic, and make for some brilliant development of their relationships... i would hope Oda would take advantage of that.


Also we have Zoro vs Pica
It feels like Pica's devil fruit may behave like a logia even though its not seeing how much he merged with the wall... Makes you wonder how much of him there actually is to target. I'd actually find it funny if pica turned out to be a tiny man who just uses stone to make himself appear larger than he actually is.


Another little detail... Baby 5's reaction after slapping law. Is she crying because law angry stare scares her, or is she getting emotional because she doesn't like having to slap Law like that?
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:41   Link #54
K. Shiruto
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Tabasco Star...
Or any of the dozen's of tricks he should have picked up in the past 2 years of training so that he would be ready to face the dangers of the new world and support Luffy
You are not making any sense. Tabasco Star? Like that would have worked. And because of what happened to Robin, Usopp now thinks he's been alone all the time. If he gets captured is over, so running away was the safest and most logical option.

His speech in that panel? Usopp being Usopp, making excuses and lies only to eventually make a triumphant come back. That already happened in Water7.
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:55   Link #55
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Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
You are not making any sense. Tabasco Star? Like that would have worked. And because of what happened to Robin, Usopp now thinks he's been alone all the time. If he gets captured is over, so running away was the safest and most logical option.
The dwarves entire plan was to KO sugar by making her eat super spicy tabasco... Something that Ussop has done many times in the past to his opponents; It is one of his oldest moves... Heck when it comes down to it, the best way to fight sugar is at long range and THAT is his specialty.

Heck, Usopp's has actually dealt with enemies far stronger than himself before. Remember Chew the fishman all the way back in east blue; he was a long range fighter that was many times stronger than usopp and usopp fought him and beat him while running away and hitting him with every dirty trick he could come up with... what was the point of his two years of training? It was to grow stronger; something he showed greatly on fishman island.

Also if Ussop runs away, it may STILL be over. If Sugar uses her powers on the dwarves, then no one will ever come back for them since no one will remember them. Its almost as bad as leaving someone behind as they are about to be killed.



Quote:
Why is Usopp's behaviour bad for his character? He's facing with two powerful enemies, he's the only one who can do something, and he's just making excuses while at the same time lying to himself. Robing getting turned into a toy just made him lost all confidence, as Usopp has now forgotten her and is feeling he's been alone all the time, which in turn is no wonder he's blaming all to Franky (which is just another excuse). As a result of all that mindfuck, Usopp panicked.

Seriously, I understand there's nothing wrong with the last panel, just Usopp being Usopp: first running, then planning something to turn the tables. That he has learned from his past mistakes doesn't mean he will never commit those same mistakes again, people.
First, its cowardice of the most extreme. As often as Ussop has run away, he has never ran away when comrades were in danger like the dwarves are. Heck like i mentioned before, he knows what Sugar's powers can do, and if they get tunred into toys then he won't even remember they need saving. I feel like the only time he ran away leaving someone behidn is when that someone was able to defend themselves.

Second. Its character regression. We've seen post time skip usopp. We've seen that he's grown stronger, we've seen him take on fishman grunts(who are 10X's stronger than the average grunt) with confidence; he even took out of the bigger members of the group. He didn't even blink while doing so. His character developed and matured. This past arc he's been running scared at EVERYTHING that comes up. You can't backtract on character development without good reason. If you regress a character for no reason other than to build them back up to where they were before, then you did not develop the character, you just put them back to where they were several arcs ago
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Old 2014-03-05, 13:57   Link #56
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Oda can't have sugar to be knocked down just yet...

that is why usopp is (conveniently) running away

not until Luffy kicks some mingo's ass

and I'm pretty sure Usopp is running with purpose, whatever it is, of defeating sugar/trebol/both in the not so distance future...

and hey, distance is sniper's best friend, isn't it?
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Old 2014-03-05, 14:03   Link #57
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Wait a second... forgetting about Robin may have more effects than we thought... what about Enies Lobby? Robin was the whole reason why they attacked it! If they forgot about Robin, everyone may have fogotten major parts of Enies Lobby... including Ussopp forgeting ALL of his development by the events there. Him suddenly running away like that DOES seem a little bit out of character after all... maybe he and the marines and everybody else forgot about Sogeking as well? Well I hope Oda will give at least a brief explanation of this, because as it is, the Straw hats maybe remember attacking Enies Lobby, but don't remember the reason, aside from maybe... saving Franky?
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Old 2014-03-05, 14:08   Link #58
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I like Usopp like this. He's whiny and a sniveling coward yet he never fails when it counts, and that shows that even if every bone in his body is crying for him to run, his feelings for his friends will always help him overcome that. It's just part of his character to be cowardly and I see it as funny rather than betraying his crew-mates. Instead of berating him I'm giggling in anticipation of how he's gonna make his comeback. After so many years watching him run and then turn and fight, I think it's inevitable that he's gonna pull through in the end. It also lets him fight with a more tactical approach compared to the others that face anything head on.
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Old 2014-03-05, 14:08   Link #59
K. Shiruto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
First, its cowardice of the most extreme. As often as Ussop has run away, he has never ran away when comrades were in danger like the dwarves are. Heck like i mentioned before, he knows what Sugar's powers can do, and if they get tunred into toys then he won't even remember they need saving. I feel like the only time he ran away leaving someone behidn is when that someone was able to defend themselves.
And the dwarves are able to defend themselves. What's your point?

Quote:
Second. Its character regression. We've seen post time skip usopp. We've seen that he's grown stronger, we've seen him take on fishman grunts(who are 10X's stronger than the average grunt) with confidence; he even took out of the bigger members of the group. He didn't even blink while doing so. His character developed and matured. This past arc he's been running scared at EVERYTHING that comes up. You can't backtract on character development without good reason. If you regress a character for no reason other than to build them back up to where they were before, then you did not develop the character, you just put them back to where they were several arcs ago
You're wrong. This is not character's regression, this is Usopp being his usual self.

Character regression would be if Usopp had next chapter a moment of realization where he sees the wrong in his actions. That would be regression, as he already went through that before.

But in that panel he's just acting like a fool, like he usually does. Sure leaving friends behind is coward and cruel, but thing is he's not doing that, just lying to himself while he thinks a way to turn the tables. Blaming Franky is also a result of Robing getting turned into a toy.

Like I said, that you have learned of your past mistakes doesn't mean you will not commit those same mistakes in a near future.

And what do you mean he was courageous and brave in Fishman Island and Punk Hazard? Of course he was, his crewmates were just a few meters nearby

The impression I'm getting is that some of you don't understand that there are quirks in Usopp and the rest of the crew that will never change.

If Luffy stopped doing reckless things it would be so out of character, for example.
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Old 2014-03-05, 14:32   Link #60
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btw, i think the description on zoro's fight with pica is not entirely accurate...
it's not that his slashes is not having an effect on pica it's just that there's too many walls and obstacles to cut through... I don't think zoro can even get close to pica's main body right now
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