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Old 2014-03-05, 14:58   Link #61
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
And the dwarves are able to defend themselves. What's your point?
No they can't. They have be defeated and rendered completely powerless; they are now at Sugar and Trebol's mercy. They are defenseless

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You're wrong. This is not character's regression, this is Usopp being his usual self.

Character regression would be if Usopp had next chapter a moment of realization where he sees the wrong in his actions. That would be regression, as he already went through that before.

But in that panel he's just acting like a fool, like he usually does. Sure leaving friends behind is coward and cruel, but thing is he's not doing that, just lying to himself while he thinks a way to turn the tables. Blaming Franky is also a result of Robing getting turned into a toy.

Like I said, that you have learned of your past mistakes doesn't mean you will not commit those same mistakes in a near future.

And what do you mean he was courageous and brave in Fishman Island and Punk Hazard? Of course he was, his crewmates were just a few meters nearby

The impression I'm getting is that some of you don't understand that there are quirks in Usopp and the rest of the crew that will never change.

Robin was with him this whole time till she turned into a toy and that did not stop him from nearly pissing himself when they ran into one of the dock workers. two dock workers, vs dozens of fishmen; no question which is more dangerous and yet he had no problems facing the greater danger... He knew she was still there last chapter and all the previous and that did nothing to boost his confidence. She even lured away Trebol so he only had to deal with Sugar, and that still wasn't enough to stop from acting like a coward. Heck Maybe if he wasn't acting like such a coward he might have Tabasco Starred Sugar long before trebol could even realize he'd been duped.


Again, its regession because we have already seen Usopp act better than this. Ussop did not show a shred of fear when dealing with the fishmen and he showed that he grew up. How hedealt with fake Luffy is another; only Nami was there to back him up and she is one of the weakest, and Usopp did not think twice about wiping the floor with a bunch of grunts. THAT is how Usopp was presented POST time skip.

And that's the problem with all your excuses for his behavior... you keep going back to how he behaved BEFORE the time skip, BEFORE his two years of training, and basically ignore what he did since coming back.... you are correct, Usopp is very much acting like he did in those previous arcs, but that's exactly why its a problem and why its regression. Its character regression because he is back to behaving like Pre-time skip usopp.
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Old 2014-03-05, 15:20   Link #62
K. Shiruto
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Robin was with him this whole time till she turned into a toy and that did not stop him from nearly pissing himself when they ran into one of the dock workers. two dock workers, vs dozens of fishmen; no question which is more dangerous and yet he had no problems facing the greater danger... He knew she was still there last chapter and all the previous and that did nothing to boost his confidence. She even lured away Trebol so he only had to deal with Sugar, and that still wasn't enough to stop from acting like a coward. Heck Maybe if he wasn't acting like such a coward he might have Tabasco Starred Sugar long before trebol could even realize he'd been duped.


Again, its regession because we have already seen Usopp act better than this. Ussop did not show a shred of fear when dealing with the fishmen and he showed that he grew up. How hedealt with fake Luffy is another; only Nami was there to back him up and she is one of the weakest, and Usopp did not think twice about wiping the floor with a bunch of grunts. THAT is how Usopp was presented POST time skip.

And that's the problem with all your excuses for his behavior... you keep going back to how he behaved BEFORE the time skip, BEFORE his two years of training, and basically ignore what he did since coming back.... you are correct, Usopp is very much acting like he did in those previous arcs, but that's exactly why its a problem and why its regression. Its character regression because he is back to behaving like Pre-time skip usopp.
Aaaaand... your point is? You're again making a big fuss out of a character quirk and taking it seriously without realizing Usopp is just acting stupid for the time being. Also, do you read yourself? Are you by some chance comparing a fake strawhat with two powerful foes who serve the most dangerous threat the crew has ever faced since Kizaru? With devil fruit powers Usopp stands no chance against by himself.

Basically, you're telling me that if a character shows for a brief moment a behavior reminiscent of something that same character already did before it becomes a character regression? For real?

And you're again underestimating Sugar and making up stuff.

This discussion ends here, I'll let the next chapter answer to your conflicted thoughts.
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Old 2014-03-05, 15:21   Link #63
Diablerie
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Usopp faced down Arlong. He faced down Rob Lucci. He faced down Oars.

But he basically just left the Tontatta at Trebol's mercy. Not to mention blaming Franky for it. I don't think it matters what Usopp does now, I can't stand him anymore, that was absolutely disgraceful.

On the upside, I really enjoyed the Gladius fight scene this chapter, and the Pica v Zoro one looks interesting too. Also, now that Kyros has joined Luffy and Violet, I get the feeling that human Kyros will have a pretty important part to play in helping Luffy against Doflamingo.
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Old 2014-03-05, 15:22   Link #64
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
And that's the problem with all your excuses for his behavior... you keep going back to how he behaved BEFORE the time skip, BEFORE his two years of training, and basically ignore what he did since coming back.... you are correct, Usopp is very much acting like he did in those previous arcs, but that's exactly why its a problem and why its regression. Its character regression because he is back to behaving like Pre-time skip usopp.
...possibly caused by Ussopp forgetting most events of Enies Lobby (which was a major step for him), i.e. one of the foundations of his character development crumbled and caused a chain reaction that turned him into the "old Ussopp".
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Old 2014-03-05, 15:35   Link #65
K. Shiruto
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...possibly caused by Ussopp forgetting most events of Enies Lobby (which was a major step for him), i.e. one of the foundations of his character development crumbled and caused a chain reaction that turned him into the "old Ussopp".
I had something similar in mind. And you're right, Chinjao also had similar behavior when his grandchildren got turned into toys.

Perhaps we are being hasty, and in the end all of that is the result of that chain reaction. Come to think of it, with Robin out of the picture I think I'm beggining to understand why Usopp's blaming Franky.
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Old 2014-03-05, 15:50   Link #66
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
Aaaaand... your point is? You're again making a big fuss out of a character quirk and taking it seriously without realizing Usopp is just acting stupid for the time being. Also, do you read yourself? Are you by some chance comparing a fake strawhat with two powerful foes who serve the most dangerous threat the crew has ever faced since Kizaru? With devil fruit powers Usopp stands no chance against by himself.
No I was comparing the fake strawhats to a pair of nothing dock workers that Ussop got scared of when they stumbled upon him and his group... Ussop been pretty pathetic this whole arc even though he had comrades by his side the entire time (contrast against your excuse for why he could be brave on fishman island where he faced a FAR greater threat than a pair of dock workers)

Quote:
Basically, you're telling me that if a character shows for a brief moment a behavior reminiscent of something that same character already did before it becomes a character regression? For real?
If the character has shown they GREW UP from that behavior, then YES it is character regression. Since the time skip Usopp showed that he grew up a great deal, and proved himself to be braver than he was before the time skip... now he's acting like he was back then and no longer like his post timeskip-self. Heck i'd say he's acting even more cowardly than he has in the past

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Originally Posted by Diablerie View Post
Also, now that Kyros has joined Luffy and Violet, I get the feeling that human Kyros will have a pretty important part to play in helping Luffy against Doflamingo.
I'm actually wondering if he still two legs or not... Did he loost that leg after becoming a toy and thus will be missing a leg when he turns back? For that matter, he's taking quite a bit of punishment; will that damage carry over when he transforms back? That could slow him down... Though ya, really looking forward to seeing him in action

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
...possibly caused by Ussopp forgetting most events of Enies Lobby (which was a major step for him), i.e. one of the foundations of his character development crumbled and caused a chain reaction that turned him into the "old Ussopp".
Ussop has been acting this same way this entire arc. Just last chapter before Robin transformed he was screaming about how they have to run away. This isn't something new but an exention of how he's been behaving

Also we can't be sure if they forgot about enies lobby. Like the woman who was asked where her son's father was; she was just confused and didn't know how to answer. Or the Marines; they manage to remember they were on dressrosa to arrest certain criminals, but could not remember who, because they were erased. Its uncertain exactly how the memories are effected and it could be that they just leave big gaping holes in your memory. So the strawhats might remember going to Enies lobby, fighting CP9, their development and everything else... but when asked WHY they did it, they will just be confused and they won't be sure why they went though all that trouble in the first place. Luffy for instance might remember being really pissed off as CP9 because of something they took, but can't remember what that something was. Usopp would remember being kidnapped on the train, declaring war on the world government, and goading Lucci, but he won't remember why he did it. (Not to mention the part about Lucci had more to do with Luffy than of Robin)
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Old 2014-03-05, 15:51   Link #67
Kopi
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TBH I hope he doesn't make a comeback as Sogeking. That just shows he hasn't really grow in terms of character development (seriously where did those 2 years worth of training and that fishman arc's Usopp go?!) and instead having to rely on some stupid ego to save the day. That inner dialouge at the end just made him look like a scumbag. If he did something, anything at all then maybe he would've look better running afterwards and I won't have to type this at all
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Old 2014-03-05, 15:59   Link #68
The Small One
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Though I do wonder if Sugar herself does forget who the toys are, or if her powers allow her to remember... Makes one wonder; does Doflamingo know that the tin soldier was Kryos, or does he just think he's a rebellious toy that is a minor annoyance in his kingdom? If sugar remembers who the toys were, she would have informed him... though if Doflamingo remembered who he was, i would think he would place a higher priority on tracking him down and getting rid of him
If Sugar remembers them or not is the last question we still have about her power, since we already know, that ALL other people forget them.

Maybe she can't even tell Doflamingo, even if she remembered.
I have the theory, that besides Sugar getting knocked out, there is another way of a toy beeing freed from the power: If someone remembers them.
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Old 2014-03-05, 16:24   Link #69
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Ussop has been acting this same way this entire arc. Just last chapter before Robin transformed he was screaming about how they have to run away. This isn't something new but an exention of how he's been behaving

Also we can't be sure if they forgot about enies lobby. Like the woman who was asked where her son's father was; she was just confused and didn't know how to answer. Or the Marines; they manage to remember they were on dressrosa to arrest certain criminals, but could not remember who, because they were erased. Its uncertain exactly how the memories are effected and it could be that they just leave big gaping holes in your memory. So the strawhats might remember going to Enies lobby, fighting CP9, their development and everything else... but when asked WHY they did it, they will just be confused and they won't be sure why they went though all that trouble in the first place. Luffy for instance might remember being really pissed off as CP9 because of something they took, but can't remember what that something was. Usopp would remember being kidnapped on the train, declaring war on the world government, and goading Lucci, but he won't remember why he did it. (Not to mention the part about Lucci had more to do with Luffy than of Robin)
The girl was not just "confused". She actually answered that "she has no father", as far as I can remember. She didn't just forget "who" her father is, but also that she has a father at all... the marines can be explained away as going after some names "they heard about from newspapers, bounties, rumours and their superiors", but they don't really know who they were, so they just forgot a few names, but not that they were pirates they were trying to capture. Don Chinjao however forgot that he had grandsons at all.

So we can see a pattern here. People forget the "occupation/work/job" of a person, if they know them personally, but not if they never met them in person or just barely know them. So it seems that escpacially any emotional ties are being cut off here, while logical ties seem to be more resistant to Sugars ability.

But really, Sugar's ability is freightening... she can influence ALL LIVING BEINGS on the planet, it seems, that is not to be taken lightly...


On another note... I think there was a One Piece filler in the anime once, that was about a seahorse, that can steal people's memories, just a little trivia i throw into this discussion.
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Old 2014-03-05, 17:02   Link #70
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Sanji won't be happy when he finds out what happened to Robin.
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Old 2014-03-05, 17:14   Link #71
GreyZone
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Sanji won't be happy when he finds out what happened to Robin.
Maybe he won't even find out, i.e. memories lost, while not noticing, later on memories regained, with, or without noticing.
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Old 2014-03-05, 17:37   Link #72
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You are not making any sense. Tabasco Star? Like that would have worked. And because of what happened to Robin, Usopp now thinks he's been alone all the time. If he gets captured is over, so running away was the safest and most logical option.

His speech in that panel? Usopp being Usopp, making excuses and lies only to eventually make a triumphant come back. That already happened in Water7.
Let's not kid ourselves, he didn't run away because it was the safest and most logical option. He ran away because he was scared shitless.

That this already happened before -and not just one time- is precisely the problem. This is repetitive, boring, and frustrating. Over 70 fucking volumes including a timeskip and Usopp hasn't evolved one bit. One of the appeal of that kind of long running shounen is to watch characters grow over time. Where is Usopp's growth? His behavior now is no different from that time in Arlong park, three years and dozens of battles ago!

Oda needs to move on and stop using the same tricks with Usopp. It worked wonders the first few times, but it's gotten seriously old. I won't feel anything even after he inevitably defeats Sugar and Trebol.
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Old 2014-03-05, 18:05   Link #73
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Man, oh man, I saw the Usopp bashing coming from a mile away..... this almost feels like Water 7 all over again, to be honest.


Anyway, while I definitely agree that pussing out is far from the most respectable action, I don't feel as strongly about this outcome because I never expected Usopp to emerge fresh from the timeskip as Mr. Fearless. Far from it, in fact. Plus, we also gotta remember that the stakes are gonna be a lot higher now that they're in the New World, and I imagine that would freak out most normal folks in general. That being said, even if he succumbs to the pressure now, I fully expect Usopp to (re)grow a pair and return to action in due time. After all, the guy himself is well aware that he just can't keep running away from his problems.....
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Old 2014-03-05, 18:12   Link #74
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Let's not kid ourselves, he didn't run away because it was the safest and most logical option. He ran away because he was scared sh*tless.
“A man that flies from his fear may find that he has only taken a short cut to meet it.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien

“When in doubt chicken out.”
― Robin Jones Gunn

“Great occasions do not make heroes or cowards; they simply unveil them to the eyes of men. Silently and perceptibly, as we wake or sleep, we grow strong or weak; and last some crisis shows what we have become. ”
― Brooke Foss Westcott

“When the sands are all dry, he is gay as a lark,
And will talk in contemptuous tones of the Shark:
But, when the tide rises and sharks are around,
His voice has a timid and tremulous sound.”
― Lewis Carroll

“Zaphod did not want to tangle with them and, deciding that just as discretion is the better part of valor, so was cowardice is the better part of discretion, he valiantly hid himself in a closet.”
― Douglas Adams

"He who fights and runs away
May live to fight another day;
But he who is in battle slain
Can never rise and fight again."
― Oliver Goldsmith



Actually I'm sure Oda will have Usopp him redeem himself in the next chapter, but his panicky flight reminds me of that wonderful Monty Python song; the "Ballad of Brave Sir Robin".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8
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Old 2014-03-05, 18:19   Link #75
K. Shiruto
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While he's seemingly leaving the dwarves behind, I think Usopp is just going trough the same he went during the stay in Water 7, when the crew told him about the Going Merry's condition and he reacted badly but in the end admitted he was just lying to himself.

Actually, Usopp has been lying to himself countless times, and always manned up and ended up doing something astounding. This time it should be no different.

And agreed with Marvel. Removing Usopp's scaredy cat antics would be the same as removing Zoro's terrible sense of direction, Luffy's recklessness, or Sanji's obessession with women.

Just my two cents.
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Old 2014-03-05, 19:01   Link #76
randomlex
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Usopp's been pretty pathetic on Dressrosa, but in regards to him running away, we gotta remember that he completely forgot about Robin (maybe even everything they talked about, including parts of the plan) and the only thing tying him to the dwarves is them capturing him, then releasing him because he lied about being a great hero related to Norland.

He used to run away even when his crew depended on him (only to return, of course), I don't see why he would risk his life for someone he barely knows, when the enemy basically crushed them in a few moves.

He looks pathetic running away, but at least it makes a bit of sense...
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Old 2014-03-05, 21:04   Link #77
GreyZone
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Usopp's been pretty pathetic on Dressrosa, but in regards to him running away, we gotta remember that he completely forgot about Robin (maybe even everything they talked about, including parts of the plan) and the only thing tying him to the dwarves is them capturing him, then releasing him because he lied about being a great hero related to Norland.

He used to run away even when his crew depended on him (only to return, of course), I don't see why he would risk his life for someone he barely knows, when the enemy basically crushed them in a few moves.

He looks pathetic running away, but at least it makes a bit of sense...
The crew is used to it anyway... no one complained when Ussopp ran away way back in Arlong Park and when he was not present on the 2 beasts in Enies Lobby, they said "he'll get through somehow".
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Old 2014-03-05, 21:10   Link #78
bigdogz
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Um, Isn't Usopp a Sharpshooter.

Shouldn't he run away and shoot something spicey in her mouth..
Him or Sogeking. Does it matter?
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Old 2014-03-06, 01:10   Link #79
yakumo-chan
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I actually like what's happening with Ussops Character right now....
I hope Oda doesnt read what you guys just said here...
It actually leads into a dramatic ending where Ussop really is actually bravest man of the sea
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Old 2014-03-06, 03:59   Link #80
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I think there is a bit of over reaction because you guys take Ussop's character seriously. He isn't really meant to be taken seriously. His primary function is to be a comedic device.

Relative to the other straw hat's he barely as a reason to be part of the crew, every other straw hat *needs* to be in the grand line to accomplish their goals. Their dreams are much more ambitious. Ussop's dream is much more ordinary. He's the tag along average joe of a crew of prodigy's and freaks. He's the most human character. He actions how ordinary would act.

This scene your reaction the supposed to be sasuga Ussop (or typically Ussop).
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