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Old 2014-03-12, 09:49   Link #21
Kanon
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Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
Then get accustomed to it, for you're going to see similar situations like this many times.

Usopp's character works this way: when he's around reliable comrades he's brave and cool; when he's by himself he tends to chicked out and run at any given moment.

Usopp's dream, I remind all of you, is to become a brave warrior, something that is far from being achieved. He will stay the coward he's, until the very last arc.

It's getting boring you say? Maybe, but it doesn't make it any less enjoyable, at least for me.
For me, it makes it a lot less enjoyable. In fact, I don't find Usopp's moments of bravery enjoyable at all anymore (I used to LOVE them at the beginning of the series). A gradual progression would be better, instead of having Usopp stay exactly the same for 90% of the manga and then suddenly turn into a badass in the last arc (it's his dream, it will happen). He's gone through so many battles and hardships, shouldn't he have changed even a tiny bit by now? It's frustrating to see him go through more or less the same thing over and over again.

I get what Oda's aiming for, but the execution is very lacking in my opinion and I'm not sure the pay-off will be worth it.
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Old 2014-03-12, 10:05   Link #22
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I have a feeling that this moment will be a crucial step in Usopp's development. We've had very similar situations before, but never has his cowardice been in the focus of the story that much. Everything's relying on him. Usopp will probably look back at this at a later point in the story and be ashamed of himself.
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Old 2014-03-12, 10:07   Link #23
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
This is what you get for doubting Usopp. He always stands out when you less expect.
Always knew ussop would come back and always knew that it would NOT be enough to redeem him for his cowardice last chapter. Heck this chapter actually reinforces the idea that he had the full intention of ABANDONING his allies. He wasn't just lying to himself and running to come up with a plan like you said; he was just plain running away. Guy didn't learn a damn thing in the past 2 years, and its a complete flip flop on the bravery he showed on fishman island; He went from striking down fishmen to cowering before every grunt and abandoning his allies. The act of cowardice he showed just puts a sour taste in my mouth when he finally mans up. His cowardice followed by acts of bravery used to be a lot of fun, but it has jumpped shark...

Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
Then get accustomed to it, for you're going to see similar situations like this many times.

Usopp's character works this way: when he's around reliable comrades he's brave and cool; when he's by himself he tends to chicked out and run at any given moment.

Usopp's dream, I remind all of you, is to become a brave warrior, something that is far from being achieved. He will stay the coward he's, until the very last arc.
A better way to handle his character is to show a gradual change, which is what we WERE getting. Instead of making him scared of every little thing, let him become brave and confident over the little things.... Allow him have the confidence and bravery to face the minor grunts; Have him show a worried caution when dealing with the major minions; and let him save his cowardice for the big villians like the Schikibukai, Admirals and Yonkou. Showing no more fear to the grunts and less fear of the major minions would help show his growth, while his remaining worries of stronger characters and outright cowardice of the major villains will show that he still has room to grow in order to achieve his dream.

Its something we seemed to be getting from how Ussop was portrayed on fishman island, but then oda Flipped Flopped and sent him back Pre-timeskip ussop. I mean really, did ussop need to abandon the dwarves out of cowardice? Could he not instead had just made a strategic retreat while he plans? One is outright cowardice, the other is just being smart and cautious (which can show a small amount of remaining fear and weakness, thus showing he has not achieved that true level of bravery he desires).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZGoten
I have a feeling that this moment will be a crucial step in Usopp's development. We've had very similar situations before, but never has his cowardice been in the focus of the story that much. Everything's relying on him. Usopp will probably look back at this at a later point in the story and be ashamed of himself.
At this point, I find it hard to expect ANY kind of positive development. Next arc I wouldn't be surprised if he's right back to his usual cowardice and we go through this same song and dance a dozen more times. And it seems some fans are perfectly fine with his character never growing (until the very end), and just running with the same schtick over and over and over again.

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Originally Posted by articuzwolf View Post
well trebol is paramecia right?

I had a feeling that he could re-connect his severed body together again due to the "sticky" property of his DF
I'm wondering if we are about to find out why his body is so weird... I mean every time he walks around it looks like their are two people under that robe of his.
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Old 2014-03-12, 10:24   Link #24
K. Shiruto
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Always knew ussop would come back and always knew that it would NOT be enough to redeem him for his cowardice last chapter. Heck this chapter actually reinforces the idea that he had the full intention of ABANDONING his allies. He wasn't just lying to himself and running to come up with a plan like you said; he was just plain running away. Guy didn't learn a damn thing in the past 2 years, and its a complete flip flop on the bravery he showed on fishman island; He went from striking down fishmen to cowering before every grunt and abandoning his allies. The act of cowardice he showed just puts a sour taste in my mouth when he finally mans up. His cowardice followed by acts of bravery used to be a lot of fun, but it has jumpped shark...
Striking down fishmen, yeah, but you don't mention his crewmates were around, too.

Now try to picture Usopp face to face with the dragon they encountered in Punk Hazard all alone. No need to say he would have shat on his pants.



Quote:
A better way to handle his character is to show a gradual change, which is what we WERE getting. Instead of making him scared of every little thing, let him become brave and confident over the little things.... Allow him have the confidence and bravery to face the minor grunts; Have him show a worried caution when dealing with the major minions; and let him save his cowardice for the big villians like the Schikibukai, Admirals and Yonkou. Showing no more fear to the grunts and less fear of the major minions would help show his growth, while his remaining worries of stronger characters and outright cowardice of the major villains will show that he still has room to grow in order to achieve his dream.
So you're still taking his freakout before those grunts seriously? Usopp always freaks out at anything, no matter how measly it may be.

Quote:
Its something we seemed to be getting from how Ussop was portrayed on fishman island, but then oda Flipped Flopped and sent him back Pre-timeskip ussop. I mean really, did ussop need to abandon the dwarves out of cowardice? Could he not instead had just made a strategic retreat while he plans? One is outright cowardice, the other is just being smart and cautious (which can show a small amount of remaining fear and weakness, thus showing he has not achieved that true level of bravery he desires).
Nope. Look back at that arc and tell me how may times Usopp was all by himself. Dressrosa is the first time in 2 years Usopp realized he was alone. There's no need to say his act of cowardice was triggered by Robin's sudden conversion to toy. Had that not happened Usopp wouldn't have run away, you can bet on it. Oda didn't flip flopped anything, Usopp was and will always have that attitude, especially when there's no one he can rely on.

Regardless of that I'm now expecting great things from Usopp. He needed a boost of confidence after the confusion of suddenly realizing he was just him, and now he got that it's time to kick some ass.
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Old 2014-03-12, 10:27   Link #25
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As was mentioned already, Usopp react differently depending on whether his crew is with him or not and other certain aspects. I already said it all in the discussion of the last chapter, but actually none of his "triggers" were activated so IMO it is only natural that he ran away. I can see now that contrary to what I believed last chapter, his behaviour now is probably unrelated to his past development, because this situation is completely different. For him the plan has no connection to his crew so it is not worth risking his life for, well at least until "the dwarves trust melted his selfish heart away". That is just the kind of person Usopp is.
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Old 2014-03-12, 10:49   Link #26
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Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
So you're still taking his freakout before those grunts seriously? Usopp always freaks out at anything, no matter how measly it may be.
Except hundreds of fishmen... Who are by definition 10 times stronger than the average grunt... and Fishmen lieutenants, who are A LOT stronger than the average fishman grunt.

Oh and your still using the presence of his crew as an excuse? Robin was right there when he freaked out over those Dressrosa grunts; so having a companion with him did not help at all. And then there's Sugar; Even when Robin was still there he was thinking "if something happens I'm running". When Robin wasn't there; he still had the dwarves who are strong, but that didn't inspire and OUNCE of confidence in him as he hid and let them do all the work even though Robin was distracting the presumed bigger threat. And what about the fighting fish; he was acting like a coward even though he had both Robin and Law with him. Heck He's been thinking like a coward his entire time on dressrosa even when he had both Robin and Franky right next to him(when they were planning with the dwarves his thoughts were focused on running away). So no, Ussop's acts of cowardice in this arc has NOTHING to do with the presence of his crew because he's been acting like a coward even WITH them present.

Ussop has had companions around him all this time on dressrosa but has acted as a coward regardless. Your excuses for why he was brave on fishman island just isn't consistent with what's going on; similar situation, different results. And heck with an army of fishman, THAT seemed like the scary situation than most of the stuff Ussop has been freaking out over on Dressrosa; He didn't even THINK like a coward on Fishman island, much less act like one. There is NO indication that him abandoning the dwarves had anything to do with him being alone without robin because he was acting like a coward LONG before that, despite her presence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone
As was mentioned already, Usopp react differently depending on whether his crew is with him or not and other certain aspects. I already said it all in the discussion of the last chapter, but actually none of his "triggers" were activated so IMO it is only natural that he ran away. I can see now that contrary to what I believed last chapter, his behaviour now is probably unrelated to his past development, because this situation is completely different. For him the plan has no connection to his crew so it is not worth risking his life for, well at least until "the dwarves trust melted his selfish heart away". That is just the kind of person Usopp is.
Actually the plan DOES have a connection to his crew because of what everyone else is up too. Luffy, Zoro, and Franky are all fighting Doflamingo and his forces and are relying on ussop to pull of his part of the plan. Snaji and the others are also risking themselves in this battle as they work to keep Ceasar and Momonosuke out of Doflamingo's hands even while they are being chased by Big Mom. His cowardice in essence puts the rest of them at risk and makes their efforts pointless.

Not to mention that abandoning the dwarves is a seriously dick move...
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Old 2014-03-12, 10:52   Link #27
coded321
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Do you guys think trebol is a logia type?
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Old 2014-03-12, 11:28   Link #28
K. Shiruto
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Slayer, I know you and me are trying to understand each other, but it isn't possible. So at this point all I can think about is to suggest you reread those arcs you mention and find me a chapter where Usopp has been put in a situation as dire as the current one. Of course you won't, as there's none that looks remotely close to what Usopp's going through as of this moment.
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Old 2014-03-12, 11:49   Link #29
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Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
Slayer, I know you and me are trying to understand each other, but it isn't possible. So at this point all I can think about is to suggest you reread those arcs you mention and find me a chapter where Usopp has been put in a situation as dire as the current one. Of course you won't, as there's none that looks remotely close to what Usopp's going through as of this moment.
Now that you mention it... his current situation is almost as if he fought against 2 members of CP9 at the same time.
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Old 2014-03-12, 11:55   Link #30
K. Shiruto
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Now that you mention it... his current situation is almost as if he fought against 2 members of CP9 at the same time.
Yep. There's a limit to what a human being can do. And in Usopp's case who has the dubious honor of being one of the Weakling Trio, the stress he's put in is much bigger. Robin's conversion to toy aside, Usopp has a dream he wishes to make true, so of course he can't allow himself to die there.

But I suppose even something so easy to understand is not that clear to some people. To each his own.
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Old 2014-03-12, 12:02   Link #31
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Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
Slayer, I know you and me are trying to understand each other, but it isn't possible. So at this point all I can think about is to suggest you reread those arcs you mention and find me a chapter where Usopp has been put in a situation as dire as the current one. Of course you won't, as there's none that looks remotely close to what Usopp's going through as of this moment.
Dressorsa Dock workers, the fighting fish, and Sugar alone are by FAR less threatening than an ARMY of fishmen and their lieutenants. With the fishmen he did not hesitate for a moment and showed nothing but bravery, but on dressrosa he jumped at everything; and as mentioned before, he always had someone else to rely on). The ONLY thing Ussop has faced that was more threatening than the fishmen, is Trebol himself. His running away from trebol is NOT his only act of cowardice this arc; just one of MANY. And you can't ignore all the others.

Can you show me instances where ussop showed fear when dealing with the fishmen?
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Old 2014-03-12, 12:06   Link #32
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Trebol and Sugar are far stronger than the army of (useless) fishmen.

Sugar alone is levels above any of the lieutenants in the Fishman army, I would think.

Oda did as best a job he could this chapter, trying to save Usopp's character. I still think that on the whole, he handled it poorly, but hey, it's his series.
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Old 2014-03-12, 12:27   Link #33
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Sugar alone is levels above any of the lieutenants in the Fishman army, I would think.
The keyword is "threatening"
Whether or not something is threatening is not determined by how dangerous it is, but how dangerous its PERCEIVED to be. Our perceptions that determine our reactions. you would for example, say that a Lion is more threatening than a rabbit... that is until you see the rabbit tear off someone's head.

Simply put, Sugar is the rabbit, while Fishmen are the lions. When you really analyze Sugar's abilities you can say she is indeed more dangerous. However, by appearances she seems less threatening. Even ussop had this same mentality; When he first heard that their target was a little girl he had a bit of relief thinking he could handle a little girl. Ofcourse even when Sugar was left alone, Ussop chose to keep hiding while the dwarves confronted her. Ussop was scared shitless of her LONG before it sunk in how dangerous she was. Heck I'm not even sure his opinion has really changed seeing as the dwarves themselves did not realize she used her powers to turn their comrades into toys and instead thought she just made a bunch of toys appear... Fishmen have the opposite effect; they are big, strong, armed and have sharp teeth; an entire army should send any cowardly man running.

Hence Why i say that Sugar alone was less threatening than entire army of fishmen. There is room to argue the point, but it would not negate the other points about him being scared of dockworkers and the fighting fish, while not showing an ounce of fear when faced with an army of fishmen.
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Old 2014-03-12, 12:28   Link #34
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He should be attacking Sugar instead of Trebol.
Trebol is Sugar's defenses so it would make sense to take him out first.
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Old 2014-03-12, 12:38   Link #35
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I didn't think Oda would portray Usopp's return so fast and was hoping for more Zoro and Franky action in the meantime.
The chapter progession was really slow, so I hope Oda picks up the pace after the flashback.


Something I noticed in last week's chapter: Was Pica the first NW-opponent who made Zoro pant?


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Old 2014-03-12, 13:05   Link #36
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Also, I don't think Usopp was scared of the dock workers ... he was scared of being discovered, which is something different.
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Old 2014-03-12, 13:26   Link #37
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it would be funny if Trebol was lost just like that

Usopp needs to look cool in front of the dwarves so he can get his own statue, and he definitely will get his own statue alongside Norland...the problem is, how cool his character can be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Trebol and Sugar are far stronger than the army of (useless) fishmen.

Sugar alone is levels above any of the lieutenants in the Fishman army, I would think.

Oda did as best a job he could this chapter, trying to save Usopp's character. I still think that on the whole, he handled it poorly, but hey, it's his series.
not sure if its Oda's intention to "save" Usopp's character

I believe he purposely drag Usopp's character to the mud just so he can elevate him in this/future chapter
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Old 2014-03-12, 13:43   Link #38
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Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
Usopp's dream, I remind all of you, is to become a brave warrior, something that is far from being achieved. He will stay the coward he's, until the very last arc.
Why is this so?
The timeskip would have been the perfect chance for Usopp to realize his dream of becoming a brave warrior.

Some of the Straw Hats have to achieve their goals sooner than the others. I highly doubt that it takes all of them until the end of the manga. Some will reach it earlier and some may not reach it at all before the story finishes.
It's not like anyone would say "Sorry Luffy, I reached my goal. Now I'm going back home, you can continue your journey alone".
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Old 2014-03-12, 13:51   Link #39
GreyZone
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Why is this so?
The timeskip would have been the perfect chance for Usopp to realize his dream of becoming a brave warrior.

Some of the Straw Hats have to achieve their goals sooner than the others. I highly doubt that it takes all of them until the end of the manga. Some will reach it earlier and some may not reach it at all before the story finishes.
It's not like anyone would say "Sorry Luffy, I reached my goal. Now I'm going back home, you can continue your journey alone".
500 chapters before the end is a bit too early though.


@ri0: thanks!
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Old 2014-03-12, 14:13   Link #40
K. Shiruto
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Also, I don't think Usopp was scared of the dock workers ... he was scared of being discovered, which is something different.
Exactly. He freaked out because they caught him off-guard, nothing else.

And I dunno, but this Usopp runs away only to come back cooler than ever formula has been overused throughout the story it irks me there's still someone out there who still can't comprehend Usopp's character quirks.
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