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Old 2014-03-13, 10:50   Link #61
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I disagree. He was not "brave" on fishman Island. Usopp and Nami were both hiding behind the strong fighters in the beginning. And only got confident because the whole crew was there together. On Punk Hazard they were only able to fight when outnumbering the enemy or when the enemy was fleeing. The whole thing with the fake SHs didn't make him "brave" either. He was obviously just trying to show off and I guess even he can see if an enemy is complete fodder or not. The fake SHs didn't seem any stronger than normal marines, who'd probably all lose to Captain Morgan (where the hell is he right now anyway?) or even by Alivida pre-DF.
Ussop never showed any fear when facing the fishmen. He did not rely on others and faced them complete confidence in his own strength and abilities. Fake luffy had a bounty of 26 million which would indeed put him above the average marine fodder... Their fodder by post-timeskip levels, but they are not anymore fodder that the average grunt working for Doflaimingo. Funny how Ussop could supposedly tell Fake Luffy was fodder, but wasn't able to tell the same of a pair of dock workers that he could have easily KO'd. You're just making excuses for Oda's inconsistencies.

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EDIT: Not to mention what would Usopp do when he would have become the "brave warrior of the sea" after the time skip already? Just "be there" or what? If he reaches his goal so early then he would probably become more and more a side character (see: Naruto).
Again, Oda could have given Ussop gradual change... don't know why i need to keep repeating that

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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Actually, I find it interesting that nobody's hopping mad at Nami for similar reasons as Usopp. She was just as eager to run away from the Dressrosa situation after being attacked by Dofla and the marines (to the point that she was even willing to abandon Luffy, lol). Yet nobody gives her any flack about that?
I don't know what you are referring too. Nami was the one who realized that in order for the plan to succeed it was best for she, Sanji, Chopper and Brooke, to leave dressrosa in order to keep Ceasar and Momonosuke out of Doflamingo's hands... Even if this meant being chased by Big Mom. It was a strategic decision, not a cowardly one

Though here's two key factors you have to take into account when comparing other acts of cowardice... First, was it a comedic situation or a serious one. Second, was the character in question abandoning someone who they knew was in immediate danger. Those are the reasons why Ussop's actions were so despicable. It wasn't a comedic situation, so it wasn't just Oda having some fun and trying to get a laugh out of the readers. Furtharmore, the drwaves were in very real and immediate danger, and ussop was abandoning to whatever horrible fate might be in store for them. Part of what makes the comedic cowardice fun is the fact that the stakes are low at the moment; the character may be running away, but their running away will cause no harm.

I never asked that Ussop never ever show fear. I have been asking for gradual change from the beginning. Abandoning his allies is low even for him; heck I wouldn't even expect pre-timeskip ussop to do something THAT low. Why couldn't ussop for instance instead make just a strategic retreat to plan his counter attack, while showing that he is worried about how strong Trebol is? That would show that he still has some cowardice in him (thus show he still has room to grow), but at the same time, show his growth since he isn't so scared that he would outright run away from such situation. And also show some fricken' backbone for the fodder; stop being scared of every little thing and save his fears for the bigger fish. Gradual growth.

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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Now, I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but....


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And that is an example of Oda just being Comedic.
This is not a case of "character abandoning her friends out of cowardice", but "lets all have fun and a good laugh".

This is very much unlike What ussop did, running away when the dwarves were in a VERY dire situation
Whether what is going on is completely serious, or comedic, completely changes the tone of what's going on.
From what we've seen of Nami in the past, she would not have run away like Ussop did in a serious situation. When Oda wants to have fun, Nami can be a coward, but when things are serious, she steps up even against foes that should frighten her. Why? Because in a serious situation, she knows there is too much at stake for her to be running away. Ussop himself, should have reached that point by now.
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Old 2014-03-13, 12:45   Link #62
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Ussop never showed any fear when facing the fishmen. He did not rely on others and faced them complete confidence in his own strength and abilities. Fake luffy had a bounty of 26 million which would indeed put him above the average marine fodder... Their fodder by post-timeskip levels, but they are not anymore fodder that the average grunt working for Doflaimingo. Funny how Ussop could supposedly tell Fake Luffy was fodder, but wasn't able to tell the same of a pair of dock workers that he could have easily KO'd. You're just making excuses for Oda's inconsistencies.



Again, Oda could have given Ussop gradual change... don't know why i need to keep repeating that
I have serious doubts that Demaro Black would be strong enough to beat Arlong, who as "only" a 20 million bounty, so his bounty probably has more to do with his scams, which raised his "threat level", because he had a similar ability as Buggy, i.e. he could gather much much stronger people than him as his subordinates.

Usopp having no fear on fishman island was because the whole crew was together, which I pointed out in my last posts already and actually even in the discussion of the previous chapter. It had a calming effect on him. Not to mention just as in EL, there was no place for him to run away to anyway.

And as other people already pointed out, Usopp was not scared about the doc workers, but instead about being discovered, which would ruin the plan they had and also possibly cause the "big guns" like Trebol to appear, who Usopp was actually afraid of. He simply hoped it would go like "stealthily get to Sugar, shoot the Tabasco in her mouth/get the dwarves to make her it it, get tons of allies in form of the toys and have an easy win". He didn't want that "perfect opportunity" to be wasted, but in the end they were busted and Usopp who had no one from the crew near him started to panic because Sugar turned out to be a much stronger enemy than he expected and he would have to face off against 2 bosses at the same time. Not to mention he didn't know for sure if Trebols power is Logia-like as Caribou or more Paramecia-like as Mr. 3 and he probably must have shat his pants because of Sugar's ability that turned people into toys, while all people forget that you even exist. He was scared to die a pointless death, or even worse, to be forgotten (though I am not sure if he knew this part her ability) and having to work as a slave for the rest of his life. Expecting to do something like this from someone with the character of Usopp goes too far IMO. He actually is insane to run in now. I hope Franky comes to help or something like that, or that he manages to somehow pull off the strategy before being defeated.
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Old 2014-03-13, 13:02   Link #63
imza
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Originally Posted by noktown View Post
Even if you don't avoid the experience,you will still experience anxiety,you never get rid of it to be honest,you can just get better at controlling it and controlling your body language/mindset,but you will always experience anxiety.
To some extent anxiety always sticks around. However, there is a large body of empirical literature in psychology and medicine that shows that anxiety is reduced considerably through exposure towards feared objects. I work in the field myself and two of the biggest misunderstandings people have of debilitating anxiety is that it can't be changed or that it should be gotten rid of all together. To contrary, anxiety disorders are the best treated anxiety disorders and they don't get rid of anxiety, they make the person more flexible to act in the face of fear.

In Ussop's case, he hasn't shown that increase in flexibility over time, he seems to constantly revert, quite unrealistically at times. But anyways, this is perhaps taking one piece too seriously on my part as psychology is my field, it's like a physicists complaining that one piece doesn't show good physics.
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Old 2014-03-13, 13:34   Link #64
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Well, the expected turn (though i was not expecting it quite so fast, nor the confession form Usopp) came, and then straight to flashback (i hate flashbacks).
Hope we get past this fast and back to action.
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Old 2014-03-13, 15:37   Link #65
Trax
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Ok so besides the whole discussion on the Usopp debacle...

First off, there was a toy that reacted to Usopp mentioning the Strawhats. Which could mean nothing, it could just be a recent convert that happens to know of them (one of the recent coliseum even). But this got me thinking, for all we know there could be a lot of wellknown/interesting people among all the toys. The number of Strawhat allies/friendlies could potentially skyrocket again. Also, if Usopp pulls this off he'll really make a name for himself with all the toys there witnessing the fight.

Another thing I noticed was Sugar's odd reaction to the Tontatta's firm belief in Usopp, she seemed kinda sad there. I guess she did kinda feel sorry for them? It might not have any bearing on this arc, but I still found it interesting. I find it amusing how she rags on Trebol btw (you're an idiot, die).

As for Trebol himself, it sure looks like he's a logia now. Although the way he plopped into his chair at the beginning of this arc kinda indicated this too. But it's hard to say what the limitations of paramecia are. At any rate, this sure makes for an odd logia but it does resemble Caribou's logia. Just like that one, Trebol's ability doesn't seem to have a large destructive potential like the classic logia's. So while Caribou's special ability is having his own personal storage capacity, Trebol's might have some kind of specialty as well (besides being sticky and flammable).

Not particularly happy to see more flashbacks at this point, especially after a couple of slow chapters. Hope it's a short one.
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Old 2014-03-13, 15:37   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Ussop never showed any fear when facing the fishmen.
You should reread the fishmen fight. He did show fear.

Like Greyzone said. The situation was different. The whole crew was together and they were against nobodys. In front of the crew or when he is with really strong fighters like Luffy, Zoro or Sanji he is "brave" because he knows that if bad things happen they will get him out of it.
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
You're just making excuses for Oda's inconsistencies.
You are making it sound like you understand his characters better then he himself. That men breaths his characters and I am always surprised by how much. For example in the most recent SBS he mentions the least favorite foods of everyone and he remembered that Ussop hates mushrooms because he had some incident which was mentioned in the Barati arc. Or that Robin always carries sweets for Choppee and so on.
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Again, Oda could have given Ussop gradual change... don't know why i need to keep repeating that
There is a gradual change. This time what changed is that he told the Dwarfs the truth. If this would have been the old Ussop he wouldn’t have told them the truth. He would have said he came back to save them or that he is a hero or something like that. But this time he told them the truth. That he lied to them, that his name is Ussop and that he is no hero and was about to abandon them.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2014-03-13 at 22:01. Reason: One Piece is licensed. Please don't link to non-legal manga sites.
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Old 2014-03-13, 17:43   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Trax View Post
Another thing I noticed was Sugar's odd reaction to the Tontatta's firm belief in Usopp, she seemed kinda sad there. I guess she did kinda feel sorry for them? It might not have any bearing on this arc, but I still found it interesting. I find it amusing how she rags on Trebol btw (you're an idiot, die).
I found this very intriguing. Sugar backstory incoming?
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Old 2014-03-13, 20:02   Link #68
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Again, Oda could have given Ussop gradual change... don't know why i need to keep repeating that
And I'll repeat what I said, that I hope he never does.

Cowardly, predictable Ussop is the best Ussop, brave Ussop would suck.
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Old 2014-03-13, 20:53   Link #69
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All the people who want Ussop to stay the way he is seem to be forgetting that he himself hates being a coward and wants to change, hence his dream to become a brave warrior of the sea. Unless they're suggesting he not achieve his dream, he will eventually change, whether they like it or not.
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Old 2014-03-13, 21:11   Link #70
GreyZone
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All the people who want Ussop to stay the way he is seem to be forgetting that he himself hates being a coward and wants to change, hence his dream to become a brave warrior of the sea. Unless they're suggesting he not achieve his dream, he will eventually change, whether they like it or not.
But only near the end of the series, else he will probably turn boring over time.
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Old 2014-03-13, 23:33   Link #71
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Great, Usopp came back to get his ass whopped and tortured, by Trebol, in front of all the dwarves, to show them that their hero failed.
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Old 2014-03-13, 23:56   Link #72
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Originally Posted by imza View Post
In Ussop's case, he hasn't shown that increase in flexibility over time, he seems to constantly revert, quite unrealistically at times. But anyways, this is perhaps taking one piece too seriously on my part as psychology is my field, it's like a physicists complaining that one piece doesn't show good physics.
Agreed,but I think it has more to do with the fact that they moved to a new world.
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Old 2014-03-14, 03:39   Link #73
Poetic Justice
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Usopp will redeem himself by taking out both Trebol and Sugar single-handedly.
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Old 2014-03-14, 10:15   Link #74
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Usopp will redeem himself by taking out both Trebol and Sugar single-handedly.
you forgot to include 'accidentally' as well
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Old 2014-03-14, 11:54   Link #75
GreyZone
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you forgot to include 'accidentally' as well
It will be like this: Fujitora throws a meteor at Luffy/Cyros, they dodge, then newtons law applies and the meteor flies, flies, flies, until it breaks through the ceiling of the toy factory and directly into Trebols face. The end.
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Old 2014-03-14, 11:59   Link #76
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I still think that it was a mistake for Oda to make Ussop look brave in the fishman island arc..

Well... whats done is done, its time to move on...
I just hope that Oda should not care what others think about his manga and should always do what he thinks that would be better in the story...

Ussop is the bravest man in the sea...
remember when Ussop fought Luffy??
Luffy even said in that fight "I dont sense a cowardice in you right now"

Let Ussop be a coward right now, Oda is actually building up Ussop's dream to be dramatic
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Old 2014-03-14, 17:38   Link #77
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I still think that it was a mistake for Oda to make Ussop look brave in the fishman island arc..

I still don't really see how it's a "mistake", but whatever. I won't bother arguing about his performance at the mermaid island arc since others are already taking care of that.....



Moving on to another topic, I find it interesting that we've yet to see the dwarf princess so far, even as a silhouette. I mean, we've even already had a silhouette of Kanjurou so far (whom Oda even changed the design for, just check out the SBS thread to see what I mean), so how long will it be before we see Manshelly....?
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Old 2014-03-14, 18:11   Link #78
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We saw a silhouette of her in chapter 717.
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Old 2014-03-15, 10:07   Link #79
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I would hope after this battle Ussop would at least fight before fleeing. As he did give a decent speech.
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Old 2014-03-18, 16:33   Link #80
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lol ussop just became the most hated SH member after these few chapters... if he wasn't already
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