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Old 2014-04-20, 02:14   Link #21
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post

And what's up with the "sad little weebo"? Please try to keep pointlessly inflammatory generalizations out of this thread.
It's the way the usage of the term is generally corrupted on top of the original meaning

Like this

Quote:
Entry-level is an anime which has very low power-level but a lot of casuals seems to like it (full-stop).
What does the bolded even mean....

Or the OP's example. In such case is this not a pointless labelling of something?


Even in the original definition, what appeals to people differ massively from individual to individual so is such a label even helpful?
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Old 2014-04-21, 03:02   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
It's the way the usage of the term is generally corrupted on top of the original meaning

Like this



What does the bolded even mean....

Or the OP's example. In such case is this not a pointless labelling of something?


Even in the original definition, what appeals to people differ massively from individual to individual so is such a label even helpful?
Do you even tropes? Its impossible to describe it if you don't even know the tropes mean. Long story short: Low power-level = using a lot of mainstream tropes (mainstream =! generic).
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Old 2014-04-23, 09:37   Link #23
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Tropes alone are an unsatisfactory and insufficient way of describing things: knowing the different parts of a show won't be enough to express how they interact together and produce the show's overall impact on a viewer. I originally thought that "power levels" correspond with "impact" (which would be a much more reasonable account), but it seemingly doesn't.

The original context was some YouTube commenter calling Naruto "entry-level", showing he sees shonen jump type anime as common anime people might start watching when they start out (i.e. a show that gets them into anime). I provided a different definition several posts back: an "entry-level" anime is something with enough of a personal impact as to get someone interested into anime, and these elements vary from person to person. Tropes inside the anime itself are inconsequential compared to the overall show (here, with respect to its impact on a viewer).
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Old 2014-04-23, 15:18   Link #24
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When I watched Black Lagoon, I thought it could be an "entry-level" anime for Westerners accustomed to Hollywood "action" films. I'm pretty sure Geneon thought the same thing. When I introduce other adults to anime, my selections are far removed from Naruto or any other mainstream show. Typically I'll show them things like "Bake Neko," Bartender, Black Lagoon, Seirei no Moribito, or Hataraki Man, depending on their tastes. For mature adults I'd say any of those can be an "entry-level" anime depending upon the person. I avoid shows with adolescents since they just reinforce the "cartoons are for kids" mentality.

I do have one friend about my age who joined me for Kill la Kill sessions each week it aired. But that wasn't the first anime he had ever seen. He started with Miyazaki films. My first recommendation was to lend him my set of Moribito DVDs.

The kinds of people who make comments like the one cited in the OP probably have no clue that people approaching retirement age might be watching anime. When I attended the showing of Summer Wars at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, I was not the only person with graying hair in the audience.
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Old 2014-04-25, 02:33   Link #25
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I wouldn't say there is anime that clearly fit into the category of "entry-level". Would you ask for "entry level TV"? Probably not. Some anime will obviously be better for newbies than other anime, but it all depends on the viewer's interests.
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Old 2014-05-01, 22:49   Link #26
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I'll throw in one unmentioned series (at least as I skimmed the thread): Cross Game. The baseball setting has the advantage of being both family *and* different--the game is the same, but there's nothing like the Koshien in the states. And the themes are universal: love, loss, etc.
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Old 2014-05-02, 08:34   Link #27
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I am a fan of Cross Game, but I think it would only work as an "entry-level" anime for a small group of people.

First, it's fifty episodes long. That's a big commitment to ask of someone just entering the world of anime. Second, it has a much slower pace than most Western movies or television series. For viewers unaccustomed to the more leisurely approach of Japanese "slice-of-life" stories, it might be seen as boring. Finally, it's about baseball, which might also limit its appeal.

I generally think movies or short OVAs are the best place to start for someone who has no anime experience whatsover.
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Old 2014-05-02, 08:57   Link #28
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Cross Game worked really well at introducing my brother to anime. Of course... my brother was an ace pitcher in highschool so...

It's certainly a safe choice for Americans, since baseball is so well known in the states. I always describe it as "The Wonder Years" meets "For The Love Of The Game" so the themes and even the pace aren't unfamiliar.

I think you might need to target towards specific people though. For example, I know Kimi ni Todoke would be a great pick for one of my sisters. It would really speak to her, as she was socially awkward in highschool.

For most guys something like Fullmetal Alchemist might be best. Action, but a thinking level a bit above the typical shonen action show.
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Old 2014-05-02, 09:09   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post

I think you might need to target towards specific people though.
Agreed.

If I had a sci-fi loving friend that I wanted to give anime a try, I'd probably encourage him to give Steins;Gate or Psycho-Pass a try.

If I had a superhero-loving friend that I wanted to five anime a try, I'd probably encourage him to check out Tiger and Bunny.

And we could go on and on for all sorts of genres/personal likes (romance, drama, comedy, sports, etc...)

One of the good things about anime is that while certain character types and tropes are very common and widespread, there's also a fair bit of genre diversity within the medium as a whole. That means it shouldn't be too hard to find a show that could be a good "gateway" anime for a friend that you'd like to give anime a try (I prefer the term "gateway" anime to "entry-level" anime).
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Old 2014-05-02, 10:43   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
It's certainly a safe choice for Americans, since baseball is so well known in the states. I always describe it as "The Wonder Years" meets "For The Love Of The Game" so the themes and even the pace aren't unfamiliar.
Baseball no longer holds sway over Americans' imaginations as it once did. Attendance in recent years has remained flat, and television ratings have trended downward for most of the decade. The 800-pound monster in the room is football, particularly the NFL.

There have been empty seats in Fenway Park this year despite the team having won the World Series just a few months ago. The team actually had special promotions to sell tickets in April.

"[Y]ounger fans seem more drawn to other sports, said a recent report by the ConvergEx Group, a trading and investment company that uses baseball attendance as an economic indicator. 'So who exactly is the M.L.B. fan base?' the report said. 'It’s primarily middle- to upper-middle class baby boomers.'” http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/04/bo...-baseball.html

Yup, that's me, though I'm more "middle" than "upper-middle."

Hell, one MLB official suggested that the game be shortened to seven innings to accomodate the alleged shorter attention spans of young people today. I can think of other ways to speed up the game; shorter commercial breaks would help. I'm pretty sure one reason why Red Sox/Yankees games take longer than average is they are mostly on network outlets like ESPN and Fox with 3-4 minute breaks between half-innings rather than the two minutes or so for most locally-telecast games.
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Old 2014-05-02, 13:02   Link #31
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As far as I know, the term somewhat originated from Cowboy Bebop since that really was the title that got anime more momentum in the West to make a wider spread of material be noticed rather than just the odd title. I and my friends have always considered an 'entry-level' title as one that would be more accessible

The thing I want to ask is - how far along history are we allowed to go for this term? Are we doing this definition only relative to today's fans or those of yesteryear? Overall, it's perhaps more relative to an individual person. But for discussion sake, I'll list some titles a larger consensus could agree on.

Before the time of Cowboy Bebop, there were other titles that Western people liked to gravitate to. Evangelion is an obvious one and I remember watching that back in the mid 90s. There is still a fair number of people that will note Akira is a title that was considered a title fans in the West were more likely to have seen early on and/or liked. Astro Boy was something that even those that would hardly have watched anime before would have seen at some point. The original Ghost in the Shell movie was one that people, even movie directors in the West, remember for being unique and something to take note of. Sailor Moon is a no-brainer and its remake is really hyped in the West. Dragonball Z will have steam in the community for a while yet.

Around the time of Bebop - Trigun was a title that went hand in hand with it at the time since Trigun was a 'spaghetti Western' that just seemed like a no-brainer for people to understand. Spirited Away got the Miyazaki train rolling - it was a title that made me want to see more of what was out there. Fruits Basket was considered the shoujo title for people to go to around then and still somewhat is. Azumanga Daioh was obligatory for the comedy + cultural insight and for the inevitable rise of moe and 4-koma comedy. Cardcaptor Sakura was a darn good production for its time and made it onto a truckload of kids/anime TV slots back in the day. FLCL was a title that was remembered for being one of those doses of insanity that was pure fun but loaded with enough puns from Western stuff as well as Japanese icons to be accessible.

After that, Samurai Champloo was one for those who wanted action with a unique spin. Fullmetal Alchemist is a rare case of well-written shounen that still had the essential elements to be very popular. A bit to my surprise, although I do value it highly myself, Elfen Lied was probably more successful and iconic in the West than it ever was in Japan. Another intriguing thing is, the more people I speak to, the more I find young adult women are into Elfen Lied in much larger numbers than I'd ever have thought. Code Geass and Death Note really don't need an explanation. The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya would be a title that was a timemark for moe/cuter material being more in line with what people were willing to see, although how people felt about it long-term became a volatile talking point as time goes by. Ouran High School Host Club and Black Butler are among the more obligatory titles for those who want more accessible shoujo. K-ON ended up being one that females liked as much as males did. Steins;Gate managed to combine a mix of storytelling/content and style/aesthetic pleasure to give a wider variety of people something to be interested in. Madoka Magica is one of those titles that means very different things to the people that follow it - some like it simply for the notion that a girl amidst hell finds a way to persevere while others revel in the grim dark viscerality. Sword Art Online was the long overdue MMO-ish title to be marketable and popular. It is a classic example of how to write something popular and that good writing is not an essential element - plenty of its fans will admit it. It was entertaining, had a cute cast and did enough things right to appeal to enough people. Attack on Titan tapped into the drought of action and easier to digest bloodlust.


As some have stated, what an entry level title is could be over-discussed and what is relevant for one person could be poison for another. It's relative and specific to an individual person. There are titles more likely than others that a larger group of people would agree on. But it is always important to consider what an individual values/likes when giving a reccomendation.

As for me - what was my entry title that really set me off? Last Exile. No one I knew back in 2003 suggested it or thought it would be my kind of title. Neither did I. It just clicked and started my journey in earnest. Sometimes it's finding something you didn't expect to be your kind of thing that is the most potent in getting one's passion for the medium going.
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Old 2014-05-04, 04:34   Link #32
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I can't help but feel like 'entry-level anime' is a meaningless term. It's not like a job, you don't enter at a low level and then work your way up to progressively better animes - I mean, you can, but I'm not sure why you would.

Anime is entertainment, and what people watch depends predominantly on what they like out of their entertainment - which might be dark psychological intrigue or might just be explosions, or both at different times. There's certainly the idea that some anime are, whether by design or happy accident, more culturally accessible to Westerners, but I'd say there are very few anime which are too Japanese for a Western audience to get into, provided said audience keeps an open mind.
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Old 2014-05-06, 13:45   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMurphy View Post
I can't help but feel like 'entry-level anime' is a meaningless term. It's not like a job, you don't enter at a low level and then work your way up to progressively better animes - I mean, you can, but I'm not sure why you would.

Anime is entertainment, and what people watch depends predominantly on what they like out of their entertainment - which might be dark psychological intrigue or might just be explosions, or both at different times. There's certainly the idea that some anime are, whether by design or happy accident, more culturally accessible to Westerners, but I'd say there are very few anime which are too Japanese for a Western audience to get into, provided said audience keeps an open mind.
I do understand your concern. It does seem like this sort of terminology implies that one needs to "get on my level you scrubs" because progressively working up to better anime is a dumb concept. It was strongly implied in what was said to OP, and represents an extremely myopic and wannabe intellectual view.

I think a lot of people must have entered anime at a young age and thus graduated to more "mature" anime. To anyone that entered anime at a later age and is naturally more well versed from works for all mediums, it's simply an invalid form of thinking especially when one realizes that dark and gritty is cool but not necessarily more mentally more advanced, as one example.

A much less loaded way of saying it is, of course a "gateway anime", which means that anime that is much more suitable for people that aren't familiar with the medium. In these cases, I would definitely say that something like Miyazaki or Shinkai films would be more suitable than something like Bakemonogatari. Anime that touches on more universally accepted themes such as Wolf Children will probably get to a Western Viewer.

There are also somewhat meta-ish anime like Haruhi, Madoka and Evangelion that can be appreciated on their own merits on values but to really get into it one needs to realize the meta commentary (some call a deconstruction) that it approaches those respective genres with. If you really try putting any of these in a vacuum, you might find something interesting, but not really understanding what the hype is about at all.

In terms of western tv, I would use an example of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine as something that is a pretty good series on its own, but because a lot of that series is based upon analyzing past ideals of the franchise in a more critical fashion, I don't really recommend that first as an introduction to Star Trek even though I think it's the best one.
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Old 2014-05-11, 15:56   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
As far as I know, the term somewhat originated from Cowboy Bebop since that really was the title that got anime more momentum in the West to make a wider spread of material be noticed rather than just the odd title. I and my friends have always considered an 'entry-level' title as one that would be more accessible

The thing I want to ask is - how far along history are we allowed to go for this term? Are we doing this definition only relative to today's fans or those of yesteryear? Overall, it's perhaps more relative to an individual person. But for discussion sake, I'll list some titles a larger consensus could agree on.

Before the time of Cowboy Bebop, there were other titles that Western people liked to gravitate to. Evangelion is an obvious one and I remember watching that back in the mid 90s. There is still a fair number of people that will note Akira is a title that was considered a title fans in the West were more likely to have seen early on and/or liked. Astro Boy was something that even those that would hardly have watched anime before would have seen at some point. The original Ghost in the Shell movie was one that people, even movie directors in the West, remember for being unique and something to take note of. Sailor Moon is a no-brainer and its remake is really hyped in the West. Dragonball Z will have steam in the community for a while yet.

Around the time of Bebop - Trigun was a title that went hand in hand with it at the time since Trigun was a 'spaghetti Western' that just seemed like a no-brainer for people to understand. Spirited Away got the Miyazaki train rolling - it was a title that made me want to see more of what was out there. Fruits Basket was considered the shoujo title for people to go to around then and still somewhat is. Azumanga Daioh was obligatory for the comedy + cultural insight and for the inevitable rise of moe and 4-koma comedy. Cardcaptor Sakura was a darn good production for its time and made it onto a truckload of kids/anime TV slots back in the day. FLCL was a title that was remembered for being one of those doses of insanity that was pure fun but loaded with enough puns from Western stuff as well as Japanese icons to be accessible.

After that, Samurai Champloo was one for those who wanted action with a unique spin. Fullmetal Alchemist is a rare case of well-written shounen that still had the essential elements to be very popular. A bit to my surprise, although I do value it highly myself, Elfen Lied was probably more successful and iconic in the West than it ever was in Japan. Another intriguing thing is, the more people I speak to, the more I find young adult women are into Elfen Lied in much larger numbers than I'd ever have thought. Code Geass and Death Note really don't need an explanation. The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya would be a title that was a timemark for moe/cuter material being more in line with what people were willing to see, although how people felt about it long-term became a volatile talking point as time goes by. Ouran High School Host Club and Black Butler are among the more obligatory titles for those who want more accessible shoujo. K-ON ended up being one that females liked as much as males did. Steins;Gate managed to combine a mix of storytelling/content and style/aesthetic pleasure to give a wider variety of people something to be interested in. Madoka Magica is one of those titles that means very different things to the people that follow it - some like it simply for the notion that a girl amidst hell finds a way to persevere while others revel in the grim dark viscerality. Sword Art Online was the long overdue MMO-ish title to be marketable and popular. It is a classic example of how to write something popular and that good writing is not an essential element - plenty of its fans will admit it. It was entertaining, had a cute cast and did enough things right to appeal to enough people. Attack on Titan tapped into the drought of action and easier to digest bloodlust.


As some have stated, what an entry level title is could be over-discussed and what is relevant for one person could be poison for another. It's relative and specific to an individual person. There are titles more likely than others that a larger group of people would agree on. But it is always important to consider what an individual values/likes when giving a reccomendation.

As for me - what was my entry title that really set me off? Last Exile. No one I knew back in 2003 suggested it or thought it would be my kind of title. Neither did I. It just clicked and started my journey in earnest. Sometimes it's finding something you didn't expect to be your kind of thing that is the most potent in getting one's passion for the medium going.

I must say that I really enjoyed reading this response. It was very well thought out and informative.
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Old 2014-05-15, 19:42   Link #35
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I'm surprised no one really mentioned this, but I remember when the west was trying to get viewers by using anime, the popular ones were YuYu Hakusho, DBZ and Sailor Moon for sure.

I know Toonami, for instance also used shows like Outlaw Star and Gundam. Gundam was really huge in Japan, especially during the 80s to 90s, and they tried to see if they could get that same thing in the US.

Of course, during the late 2000s, Code Geass and Death Note definitely helped skyrocket, if not maintain the western interest in Anime.

All of these could be said to be "entry-level" as in shows used to garner interest in anime, though like said earlier there is so many genre and new types of stories, that you can almost find an anime for anyone.

Me in particular, I got interested in anime through YuYu Hakusho, but I know a lot of people who got into anime through shows like Naruto and Bleach which have a big western audience.
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Old 2014-05-23, 21:14   Link #36
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When your friends and co-workers who don't watch anime at all start talking about it on facebook.

Examples: Sword Art Online, Attack on Titan.
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Old 2014-05-25, 22:12   Link #37
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Originally Posted by Esclair View Post
When your friends and co-workers who don't watch anime at all start talking about it on facebook.

Examples: Sword Art Online, Attack on Titan.
I don't know many fans of SAO (sadly) in real life, but I have seen that trend with Attack on Titan. Haha
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Old 2014-05-26, 06:02   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esclair View Post
When your friends and co-workers who don't watch anime at all start talking about it on facebook.

Examples: Sword Art Online, Attack on Titan.
Haha, I hate to sound like a jerk, but by those examples, DBZ could almost be counted, because so many non-anime fans considered watching the American dub of DBZ alone made them an anime fan. Meanwhile, they criticises the squeaky voices of Japanese seiyuu.

Ahem. Off-topic but, yeah. Felt that I had to bring this up. Continue. Ahem.
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Old 2014-05-31, 00:31   Link #39
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I feel like Entry-Level anime are usually the popular ones. The most common ones that are pointed out by the community would be Bleach, Naruto, DBZ, and One Piece, with the newer ones being SAO and Attack on Titan.

My personal definition of entry-level anime would be things that aren't too deep, or thought provoking. It's both easy to understand and universal in both its themes and meanings. So honestly, I feel like all those up there really are entry-level.

Which I think leads them to get some undeserved popularity, especially SAO and AoT. Both were terrible.

My first ones were DBZ, then Naruto. They opened up my world to anime. I actually stopped watching for a time, but then one day I woke up, grabbed my iPod and looked up "Anime Girls" on YouTube. Then I discovered DearS and Sora no Otoshimono, which both got me back into Anime. But I'd hardly call those two "entry-level" especially with their "themes".
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Old 2014-05-31, 14:24   Link #40
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Originally Posted by takai View Post
I feel like Entry-Level anime are usually the popular ones. The most common ones that are pointed out by the community would be Bleach, Naruto, DBZ, and One Piece, with the newer ones being SAO and Attack on Titan.

My personal definition of entry-level anime would be things that aren't too deep, or thought provoking. It's both easy to understand and universal in both its themes and meanings. So honestly, I feel like all those up there really are entry-level.

Which I think leads them to get some undeserved popularity, especially SAO and AoT. Both were terrible.

My first ones were DBZ, then Naruto. They opened up my world to anime. I actually stopped watching for a time, but then one day I woke up, grabbed my iPod and looked up "Anime Girls" on YouTube. Then I discovered DearS and Sora no Otoshimono, which both got me back into Anime. But I'd hardly call those two "entry-level" especially with their "themes".
While I won't criticize your opinion, I actually found AoT to be incredibly thought provoking. Sure, it doesn't match the merits of a work done by Shelley, but I don't know many anime that actually do.
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