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Old 2004-04-28, 20:52   Link #41
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhJustSomeRandomGuy
Pre or Post-Crisis Superman?

I think his main point is why don't more guys in Naruto use swords, though. Not, "could Kenshin kill everyone".
Pre or Post? Depends on who you want to win...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-of-Mibu
Rurouni Kenshin keeps the action on a non-collosal level. However the reason i made this thread is because im curious if you think a good swordsman would easily hand a naruto world ninja their ass.
Wolf's post can be construed as a 'would a Naruto character - using swords - be able to be an effective warrior in the Naruto world' but he continually references Kenshin. I think his main point is 'could Kenshin be in Naruto?'
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Old 2004-04-28, 21:02   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
Pre or Post? Depends on who you want to win...



Wolf's post can be construed as a 'would a Naruto character - using swords - be able to be an effective warrior in the Naruto world' but he continually references Kenshin. I think his main point is 'could Kenshin be in Naruto?'


That was because he was pointing out some of the techs that could be effective from the Kenshin universe in the naruto universe.

such as since kenshin has such speed, if another sword user had that kind of speed in the naruto universe.
of if they used the same sort of techniques.


The problem is that since nobody in naruto really bother to become sword masters. so we are just using kenshin to sort of "fill in the blanks"

:/
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Old 2004-04-28, 21:16   Link #43
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here is something to think about,
Rock lee was moving at roughly the same speed as kenshin and such and only punching. what do you think would have been the result if he was moving with a sword that fast?
instead of just hitting gaara he would have took his head off at that speed. Instead of just impacting against the armor of sand he would have cut him completly.

so it begs the question. why isn't swords used to full effect such as this? I would think becoming a swords master would be just as benifical as becoming a master of something else like Taijutsu or a throwing weapons master like Ten Ten.
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Old 2004-04-28, 21:20   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmic
here is something to think about,
Rock lee was moving at roughly the same speed as kenshin and such and only punching. what do you think would have been the result if he was moving with a sword that fast?
instead of just hitting gaara he would have took his head off at that speed. Instead of just impacting against the armor of sand he would have cut him completly.

so it begs the question. why isn't swords used to full effect such as this? I would think becoming a swords master would be just as benifical as becoming a master of something else like Taijutsu or a throwing weapons master like Ten Ten.
You made the question and you give the answer as well
They don't use it simply because the fight would end with the first hit, thus it wouldn't be so exciting as to see jutsu's and awesome techniques, not to mention this is a Ninja show not a Samurai Show they aren't supposed to use swords constantly.
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Old 2004-04-28, 21:46   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
Sorry to say this, but this thread has all the relevance of a Superman vs Goku thread.
Thank you a lot raikage for having the intelligence to see the HUGE flaw in comparing the fighters of these two series. Now I shall go on my rant on how the two series are different. Oh look! I already did it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim
How about a real reply? Anyways, I have watched Kenshin extensively , and am also in the "Naruto Craze." So I feel I can provide a reasonable opinion. My background in Kenshin is probably watching the whole series and OVAs 3 solid times over, and 70 percent of the series 5 or more times over. Some parts in excess of 8 times. Naruto is much newer so I've seen every episode up until 78, watched only 20 percent 2x over, and only a few 3 times probably.

First of all, I really don't think the two are similar. Samurais and ninjas? Sure they both existed in Kenshin, but in Naruto samurai are gone, and it is a world where everyone fighting is a ninja. Since Kenshin is a bit more accurate let me explain it first. During the Bakumatsu/Edo/Tokugawa era in Japan groups of samurai under different clans(political parties) were fighting for control of Japan. They had different views on how to make Japan powerful. The primary fighters for these factions were samurai. [EDIT]It was also during a time when the sword was being outlawed and considered unecessary because of western influence and a "peaceful" era coming.[/EDIT] Ninjas were used for special forces type purposes. Ninja weren't necessarily better than samurai but they were used for more specific missions like recon or assassinations. They lived by a different code than samurai and had "less honor" because of a less strict code. This is a bit of speculation, but I also think some people were ninjas because they couldn't be samurai for whatever reason like women or other circumstances. Now, looking at Naruto, none of that crap is present. It's kind of like thinking "what would the world be like if everyone was a kung fu master?". They basically took the ninja idea, and made them the center of society in Naruto's world, and eliminated the samurai. [EDIT]The "standard soldier" in Naruto is the ninja, and to differenciate them, they use the concept of rankings - i.e. ANBU, chuunin, jounin, genin.[/EDIT] All of that is historial/real bullshit, so if you cared about it, great. I guess the thread was more interested in the shows which I will get to.

All that being said, both of them are anime and are entertainment. Naruto takes the ninja idea and expands them by giving them everyday duties in a society, far more abilities than what was/is real, and throws in a completely fictional setting too. (It's sort of modern day, but still somewhat antiquated) In Kenshin, since it was also historical, they kept the setting very much intact and accurate, but they did fictionalize the samurai a bit. Obviously, there were sword fighting techniques but they didn't look like how it was shown in the show and a lot of them were probably made up. Thinks like Kenshin's "Dou Ryu Sen" and "Ryu Tsui Sen" are a bit impossible/unreasonable to think someone could just "do". The Tsuikohen OVAs(Samurai X: Trust and Betrayal in USA) show completely accurate battle scenes (except one or two maybe). [EDIT]Basically, though Kenshin does stray a bit and make the fighting entertaining, it isn't completely far from the truth. Real "abilities" were just shown through a entertainment medium. Naruto is pretty focused on these "fictionalized" techniques though. A huge part of the Naruto world and what makes the show interesting are the jutsus that the characters perfom. Some of them are done very interestingly, and have cool effects and consequences. The basis of these jutsus are just about none. Ninjas could not summon creatures, create elements, or stick to walls. The only reasonable context of these justu are the fact that ninja were more "in tune" with nature. It's very strected to say they did what happens in Naruto though. If I need to clarify what I'm saying, basically both anime fictionalize things, but I think Naruto takes it to a point further where you need to really should ignore what it would be like in real life.[/EDIT]

As far as the main characters, here is also where a big difference is: Kenshin comes in the series already at the top. Even in the first OVA he studied under his master and became stronger than just about everyone before he really started to fight for a purpose. His name is notorious[back to the series] and that alone is what makes a number of enemies scared, or some of them stupid (to still think they can win). Of course there are other strong guys that he fights where the major battle scenes are. Throughout the series, you aren't really expecting Kenshin to get better and stronger...you are just watching it to watch it, or maybe see him do something more spectacular. Naruto though, definitely starts at the bottom; rejected from society, no known talent, and no skills learned. People watch Naruto to see how much he will grow in attaining his dream, to see what spectacular things he will do, and for general entertainment too. While both are entertaining a major difference is that when you watch Kenshin fight, you generally know he will lay the smack down; Naruto you know that it could happen, might happen, but he's not a master by far, so it could be a real struggle. Which leads me to my next point -

The fights.(yes that was a fragment, shoot me) The similarities go along with just about every anime with fighting. There are always bystanders that comment on what's going on, making it far more dramatic. They always show shocked and appualled faces when something spectacular happens and whatnot...blah blah and blah blah. The minor difference in the "typical attributes" are in Kenshin, after someone has seen Kenshin fight for more than 10 or so episodes, they really dont express shock in terms of his abilities, unless it really is above what they have seen before - contrary to people always being shocked about Naruto and what other characters do. Also when they have "thinking comments" coming from the participants of the fight, you only see that coming from the characters closely associated with Kenshin or Kenshin himself. In Naruto, every character with a name in the series has their thoughts shown pretty much. The length of the fight scenes are also pretty different. Naruto is starting to, and will have increasingly longer fight scenes, or more frequent long fight scenes. Kenshin's fights are mostly short because of his ability and the fact that once he decides to end them, they will pretty much end. The few exceptions were vs Soujiro and vs Shishio where each took 3+ episodes. Though with Soujiro there was only really 1 episode of fighting, 1 episode of flashback, and the last was only half spent on the fight and was around their final moves. The whole Shishio chapter was just such an important event that the fights surrounding it were justified for being long. Naruto though, the length of some fights is becoming excessive IMHO. Kenshin had ways of telling people's pasts that didn't call for a ton of flashbacks, or if they were there, it was very breif. The typical argument is that flashbacks are needed to drive plot and substance to the characters. Kenshin's characters definitely had depth to them that weren't completely in the past, and if there was something very important there it was still known but not "replayed" in its full glory. Pasts also shouldn't always come back to haunt every fight the character has - which is often the reason why every character gets a flashback in Naruto.

As far as filler goes. A lot of people think that Kenshin could have ended around episode 65(after the Shishio chapter). Personally I think later chapters were entertaining. They weren't as "important" because it no longer dealth with major issues in Japan, but rather other smaller issues of the country that had historical context. Things that happened between "events" were undoubtably what people would define as filler, but for me were still good because I really liked all of the characters in Kenshin even when they weren't fighting. Naruto...maybe I'm not that much of an "otaku" to see it, but I dont see much filler in Naruto - aside from some episodes in the very beginning maybe. Other than that, the "fillers" I think were more so transitions to something else starting up. Since Naruto does live in a town or city with everyday life, you can't expect him to get into something big all of the time without stop. Sometimes, normal things will happen to him and the characters.

If you couldn't tell from all of that text that I wrote from before, right now my judgement is in favor of Kenshin. But that is just my opinion of which anime I like better. I stated also that they really aren't similar so, I'm not comparing them on the same grounds and saying Kenshin is better. I just like Kenshin better as of now. It's also hard to talk about Naruto in a complete sense. Since Kenshin has completed, and Naruto is far from it - both the anime and manga(which I do read). Kenshin was 95 episodes, 6 OVAs(4 for one, and 2 for the other), and a movie(WHICH REALLY SUCKED!!!). Naruto is currently at 78 episodes, and if the manga were to stop now, it would still hit ~140+ episodes before cathing up.

EDIT: Fixed some grammatical erros, added some historical context, and added some "realism" notes.

Also, to justify my talking of Kenshin far more - Since this is a Naruto forum, most people have probably seen it and know it pretty well. Kenshin needs a bit more of clarification for those who haven't seen it.
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Old 2004-04-28, 21:46   Link #46
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That was from a thread that was closed a while back. Of course that thread was geared a little more towards comparing the two anime and not fighters in them. So I will extend that post by talking about why it is unreasonable to compare fighters from the two on a literal scale:

First of all, has anyone noticed that Kenshin is a bit more "real" than Naruto? Kenshin and Soujiro's "disappearing" thing wasn't a fast speed in terms of "I can run really fast and get from point A to point B" but rather a realization that some samurai were very evasive and quick with their sword. Before you would slash at them, they would evade it and be in a position where you are about to be screwed from their attack. If you watch a bit of The Last Samurai they have a few good clips of this "realization" - same thing if you watch the Kenshin OVAs. You see that Kenshin isn't really running fast or anything, rather enemies miss him, and he moves in extremely quickly to a strike. The eyes not keeping up is more like a "it happened so fast I didn't know what hit me" type of realization. Granted there are some techniques in Kenshin that are completely fictionalized like the wind cutting projectile move, and others that I don't feel like naming. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the overall balance in Kenshin is much lower than that of Naruto. It is unfair to put Kenshin in Naruto, and expect the realization of Kenshin's speed in the anime to translate 1 to 1 with the way the animators did Naruto. Kenshin and Soujiro were considered to be the fastest in their "world." Translating it to someone in Naruto would mean you would have to match them with someone like Gai perhaps. On top of that, because Kenshin's sword skills are the top in his world as a genius and after hard work (and a heck of a lot of suffering), you would have to say his fighting skills are matched with someone like the 4th in terms of greatness. Actually, to make this easier, let's just say that Kenshin is the 4th. As far as rankings go, you can scale everyone else below that in Kenshin's world with someone in Naruto's world.

Do you have to conform to my "scale"? Of course not. I'm just saying that if you want to compare two fighters between the two series in any kind of fair way, you would have to do something that scales power in each series, or else it is ridiculous. You might as well be matching up Pokemon to Naruto characters. The relationship between the swords in Naruto and Kenshin is weak to nothing.

And because I feel like being a dick a little bit: I doubt any of the Naruto characters would beat Gon, Killua, Kurapica, or Hisoka from Hunter X Hunter.
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Old 2004-04-28, 21:49   Link #47
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EbonySeraphim i have to say your posts are usually awesome filled with great and interesting content but damn they are big man, if i didn't knew that they were interesting to watch i wouldn't even look at them
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Old 2004-04-28, 22:11   Link #48
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EbonySeraphim > This Thread....

by a long shot :/
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Old 2004-04-28, 22:20   Link #49
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I understand what you are saying perfectly Ebony, but you need to destinguish between a light hearted post and one that is there to meticulously scrutenize.

It was not so much kenshin vs kakashi. That is what the post evolved into. I was geared more towards Naruto type ninjitsu fighting and fighting where your opponent (a skilled swordsman) killed you with the first hit. In other words is it feasible to fight with your hands and feet and waste time doing seals when faced by someone who is equally skilled and will kill you instantly should they land a blow.
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Old 2004-04-28, 23:59   Link #50
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Quote:
Skills like Byakuggen and Sharingan become useless because the opponenent is using neither Chakra nor are they forming seals you can copy.
Wrong on Both accounts.... Sharingan can be used to copy taijutsu styles, so therefor kakashi, itachi, or even sauske could easily learn kenshin's style & Then be able to predict his movements even if they werent physically able to perform the techniques themselves........ Byakuggen Has not only its 360 degree vision, & an Absolute defence that uses chakra to blow physical attacks away, But remember that the attacks with it close chakra points & Will also cause physical damage to internal organs...
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Old 2004-04-29, 00:01   Link #51
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Just gonna comment on the Superman comment. Doesn't matter if its pre or post, Superman > Naruto/Rorouni Kenshin. Superman is the cheapest comicbook hero in the creation of American comics, and pretty much rivals anime/manga characters too, (I remember the epic Tetsuo from Akira vs. Superman fights). D00d is part of JLA, JLA = most whack team ever, that's why all JLA stories are stupid, because they shouldn't be losing. Return of the Dark Knight proved his cheapassiness, to the extremes. The only person that can be Superman is Batman, Batman > everything, and whose higher then Batman? Jack Bauer/McGuvyer. Can't go any higher. Anyone that's played DC HeroClix's understand how cheap ass all DC characters are.

But in short:

Superman > Naruto/RK
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Old 2004-04-29, 00:06   Link #52
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I probably shouldn't post as long. I think sometimes it is the cause of death to some threads....

And I think that beats my previous record for shortest post.
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Old 2004-04-29, 00:08   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SrStrk
True, but if you're saying that there's no such thing as chakra in this battle, then Kakashi's fucked. He wouldn't be able to use his Sharingan, bushin, kawamiri (sp?)(replacement), chidori, etc. I like both animes, but if it came to a battle with real life conditions, Kenshin would probably own Kakashi, but not after he took a few blows himself.
No one ever said Kakashi couldn't use his ninjutsu, I said he might not even need them, He is very fast, and with Sharingan he could see Kenshins movements I think.

Real life conditions...whoa whoa...that would mean "godlike speed" probaly is a little slower

Kenshin rocks. Kakashi rocks.


EDIT: I agree 100% with JubeiYamazaki
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Old 2004-04-29, 00:29   Link #54
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lets just say that any RK characters eye contact itachi will die, unless they close their eyes.

take oro for example: the only time he got hit was when the hokage did the seal on him, rest of the time its a replacement.

jutsus also owns RK, take kakashi's ground-burrow-grab-leg-get-u-stuck jutsu for example. The moment kakashi lands that jutsu, kenshin's head would be the only thing sticking outta the ground, and kakashi can piss on him.

summons would totally rape kenshin. no one can test giant reptiles.

heck.. even shikamaru can own them.. with his intelligent strategies n shadow bind + neck bind = end of kenshin.

you can't really compare 2 different manga characters... their not even in the same league.



p.s. goku owns all
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Old 2004-04-29, 00:41   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaOH
lets just say that any RK characters eye contact itachi will die, unless they close their eyes.

take oro for example: the only time he got hit was when the hokage did the seal on him, rest of the time its a replacement.

jutsus also owns RK, take kakashi's ground-burrow-grab-leg-get-u-stuck jutsu for example. The moment kakashi lands that jutsu, kenshin's head would be the only thing sticking outta the ground, and kakashi can piss on him.

summons would totally rape kenshin. no one can test giant reptiles.

heck.. even shikamaru can own them.. with his intelligent strategies n shadow bind + neck bind = end of kenshin.

you can't really compare 2 different manga characters... their not even in the same league.



p.s. goku owns all
So Usui's the only one that has a chance against Itachi?

RK has their own verison of a summon... somewhat.... they got Fuji.

Watching a giant asian man with a sword vs. a colorful toad with loud little blonde haired boy = battle of ultimate ownage.
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Old 2004-04-29, 00:51   Link #56
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NaoH your argument with itachi comes to a moot point because Kenshin was able to beat another Hiten Mitsurugi user who was as strong as he was while he was... Blind.
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Old 2004-04-29, 02:41   Link #57
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Ebony ... not worth an essay dude ... Informative but way overkill
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Old 2004-04-29, 17:35   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
NaoH your argument with itachi comes to a moot point because Kenshin was able to beat another Hiten Mitsurugi user who was as strong as he was while he was... Blind.
well if u face itachi while blind folded... u still be dead. if ur unable to see itachi, it gives him the chance to wipe out some jutsues, plus itachi can do shadown replication + explosion... if kenshin slashes it... KABOOM

itachi probably has the fastest jutsu speed. If you take kakashi as a standard naurto character, then itachi is >>> than kakashi in terms of speed, intelligence, and power.
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Old 2004-04-29, 17:44   Link #59
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Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim
I probably shouldn't post as long. I think sometimes it is the cause of death to some threads....

And I think that beats my previous record for shortest post.
Actually, there was posts longer than yours (too long to be in one post actually ) in the old forum, but i think you beat the record for the new one ^^

Btw, I just wanted to add that genin, chuunin and jounin are true historical ninja rank, (the difference was that there was only one Jounin who was the equivalent of the Kage in Naruto).
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Old 2004-05-06, 20:11   Link #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
Hello again.

I have a wierd question. Does the Naruto style Ninjistu where they are summoning Giant creatures and blasting powers everywhere make them untouchable by anyone except a fellow Ninja?

Naruto is now my second favourite anime (After Rurouni Kenshin ofcourse). The difference between the two anime in terms of the battles is quite huge. Rurouni Kenshin keeps the action on a non-collosal level. However the reason i made this thread is because im curious if you think a good swordsman would easily hand a naruto world ninja their ass.

Im tip toeing around the corny XXXX VS XXXX!!! type thread becae those quickly kill a forum, but ultimately it comes down to that.

Take Kenshin for example. Asume he is back to his Battousai days and he has no problems lopping of kakashi's head.

Now we can safely assume that the best swords men (kenshin , shishio, hiko, soujiro etc etc) dont fall for cheap gimicks like duplicates or illusuions. Remember Kenshin defeated Aoshi who was himself a prodijy ninja even when he did that crazy illusion technique of his.

Anyway, what it comes down to is one thing .... swords dont allow you get up again. Rock lee had crazy mad speed and was able to penetrate gaara's defence. When Kiba fought naruto he was able to get sooo many hits on the basis of how fast he was moving alone.

Skills like Byakuggen and Sharingan become useless because the opponenent is using neither Chakra nor are they forming seals you can copy.

Now swordmen like Kenshin, Soujiro and Hiko all have godlike (dissapear type) speed. If one second kakashi and Battousai are staring each other down ready to fight, kakashi will not have time to form any seals. I doubt hell even be able to see Battousai attack before his head goes flying off. The affair would be over in an instant if Kenshin decided to attack first and use his succession technique. The super-godlike speed + the ferocity of the attack = kakashi joins Obito.

Hopefully ive managed to mould this thread so that its not the gay XXX VS XXX!! type garbage, so please feel free to voice your opinion.
Kakashi wouldknow that already before Kenshin even drew his sword. plus he can perform illusions which is what kenshin will be hacking on.

Kakashi has a broad repetoire to disable Kenshin. he can hypnotize, call denizens from other planes, and call Chidori. he can find ways to slow Kenshin's speed down to a snail. afterall, he's, an avatar swordsman, fighting against an elite hybrid class of a ninja/mage.

in fairness, Kenshin will be disabled once his reaction time is slowed through hypnosis via sharingan, then paralyzed by a summoning technique, and then ignite chidori just to scare the shits out of kenshin. ahah

kenshin will snap out of the paralysis.

the battle continues..
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