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Old 2004-05-06, 20:19   Link #61
Isis&Osiris
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though, that's big maybe if he can break the hold against outer planes creatures.
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Old 2004-05-06, 21:56   Link #62
Dauthi
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This is an odd thread . I personally didnt like Kenshin that much, too much of those scenes where theres a flash, then hes standing there with his sword pointing down, and the enemy hits the floor. I much prefer watching Naruto fights, they just seem to consist of more action and planning.

Anyways, wasnt there an episode when kenshin has trouble beating *evil music* The Guy with a Gatling Gun!!! Seriously though, this guy easily kills all these guys kenshin had trouble defeating with a gatling gun... it kinda puts a more realistic twist on how fast Kenshin and the people he fights really are, like Ebony says.
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Old 2004-05-06, 22:59   Link #63
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Actually, I think that Kenjutsu (Samurai sword art or something like that) would be great to see in Naruto. I just don't think it should be shown in the form of RK. It would be great. It seems as though the samurais all gave up bushido or became a bit corrupt in Naruto, though.

Here's a theory: Since all the samurai are kinda like bandits at the present, perhaps something similiar to what happened in RK occured. Maybe samurais used to be the military power until ninjas took over. Then, most of the samurais with no place to go, either converted into ninjas, became corrupted bandits without bushido and learned kenjutsu in a bad way, revolted, ending with death by ninjas, or lived poor lives in the brothels and streets. Thus, most samurai became a bit like Yahiko and other ex-samurai from RK.

Some kenjutsu I can see being used by some ANBU members who might have some samurai ancestory, since they need to kill fast. For all we know, Kiba or someone with a clan may be a samurai descendent. (Or from a family like that) I think there might be some kenjutsu out there in the Naruto world somewhere, but there seems to be a lack of it in Konohagakure. Perhaps in the other villages or in other parts of the land without ninjas there are really skilled kenjutsu masters. I don't see too many ninjas using it, but it would be cool to see some scenario with ninjutsu vs. kenjutsu. OR perhaps taijutsu vs. kenjutsu as well as genjutsu vs. kenjutsu.

Of course, if Orochimaru intends to learn all the jutsu in the world, he better start learning some better kenjutsu. He looked pretty stupid using a sword! Maybe he will have to start learning under an ex-samurai or kenjutsu masta.
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Old 2004-05-07, 02:16   Link #64
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Lemme "play" into this topic a little bit, even though I pretty much previously said has no relevance or meaning. People mentioned that characters in Kenshin really have nothing to do against Itachi's Sharingan - I disagree. Look at the early episodes that involved a guy named Jin-E. This man was a hitokiri like Kenshin who had a mysterious ability with his eye. Basically, he was going around killing government officials and somehow not even being touched by any of the gaurds - even after telling them what time he would be coming. Jin-E used a technique called Shin-No-Ippou which would instill fear/dominance into his opponents eyes and cause them to freeze and not move. Kenshin, however, was relatively uneffected by this technique as his warrior spirit was strong enough to overcome the hypnosis, and he could break it easily. Itachi's sharingan is a very similar technique, and is something that Kenshin would easily break. Of course there are differences, but there is nothing like Sharingan in Kenshin's world, so we have no idea how he would be against it. You can claim to take the word of "only a true sharingan user can match up against it" but that's only an element of Naruto's world. I might as well take words in Kenshin like "no one can match up to Soujiro's speed" and say that no character in Naruto is as fast as him. Another "suggestion" for me to throw out is the occasion when Kenshin fought another Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu user while blind.

I'm sure half of you that are reading this, if you have any context of Kenshin or not, are probably head-over-heels screamin "he's a dumbass" and also thinking that Kenshin would just get 0w3d by Itachi's m4d skill5. You know what - go back to my original post, they're both fiction, and Naruto's characters are made to be more powerful by the creators. I could create some imaginative character that would be faster, stronger, and more deadly than Kyuubi himself. Would you like me to argue in favor of that character being stronger than Itachi? No, because it would be pointless.

Another explanation of the "powerscale" of characters in both of these anime is how they show it. In Naruto, the most skilled ninjas are generally those who are strong because of their extensive knowledge of jutsu, physical ability, chakra capacity, and chakra strength - and a considerably weighted on "sneakiness" and intelligence. In Kenshin, the strongest men are already considered masters of their styles, they have knowledge of whatever the strongest attacks their styles and other styles offer.(even though most only use their own) They also have strong ki(something like chakra...), which they have occassionally shown giving pressure to other guys to show off their strength and cause the other to back off or sumbit. But one huge thing Kenshin stresses is the strength from experience and understanding "the sword." This makes these powerful characters strong in the sense that their swing is much faster, with much more support behind it. Basically, that is to say, even if an unexperienced guy "blocked" a attack from Kenshin, he would certainly get his sword cut, broken, or be knocked back. These strongest characters have a lot of battle experience and know what to expect from their enemies and don't need to "read" attacks in a direct sense, because they know what's coming or what to expect just through experience. They also have carried their sword and swung it so many times that powerful blows come without effort from them. An example of the series showing this would be the in Seisouhen OVA - the fight between Yahiko and Kenji (Kenshin's son). While Kenji was much more agile and "skillfull," Yahiko had been through a lot more, and through a simple blow, he broke Kenji's sword and finished the fight.

Kenshin got as powerful as he did because of a lot of hell he went through while growing up. We all see Naruto as being troubled because he was "rejected" and all. IMHO that is very much superficial - while it does make Naruto's experience traumatic, it's target audience is for the more weak hearted. Kenshin witnessed three caretaker's deaths right in front of him(his parents both died while he was young), and had the strength to still dig graves for everyone that died on the day he was saved - even the guys that attacked him. Keeping in mind that he was still around 8-10 years old. He was old enough at 14 to understand "roughly" what was going on in his world and left his master early to help fight for a cause during a war. Still under 18, he fought in this war, killed many, and carried his sword without regret. Then after the Ikeda incident (a real event) he went into hiding with a woman and stopped killing for a while. This is when he realized other parts of his life other than fighting and killing, and sought peace. He didn't exactly "regret" killing because he still believed in cause, but he realized that he would have to atone for his "crimes" against humanity. He also went through a supposed betrayal and ended up killing someone who he loved with his own sword(by accident of course). After all that, he still had the strength to pick up his sword, understanding that the woman he loved would have wanted him to fight, and finishd the war on the side he believed in, and he stuck to his previous word and stopped killing at the end. If that isn't enough for ya, during the series Kenshin additionally learns that it isn't as easy as sacrificing himself in a battle, and that his true strength should lie in his will to survive. That concluded Kenshin's training and pretty much made him as strong has he could be as this "will" was the essence of his ougi (succession technique) and would happen without fail when it was needed between life and death. Even after learning this move, during the series, Kenshin still didn't really fight 100 percent normally - keeping in mind that he is the strongest guy in his world generally. In the Seisouhen OVA, Kenshin fights against Enishi, and we see him pretty much as a flawless swordman (the young Kenshin). He fights unstrained from the start of this fight, and easily beats a guy who trained specifically against Kenshin's style and was very formidable.

The big difference I'm trying to point out is in how to "identify" the strength of the characters in both series. It's easy to be drawn into how Naruto shows battle scenes, with concrete breaking, guys disappearing in front of your eyes, the level of the jutsus being used, and whatnot, but Kenshin isn't all about the flashy scenes. To compare character's between the anime fairly, one should consider how they are measured up relatively in each other's worlds.

If all of that Kenshin stuff drew you into the series - good. You should watch it too!!! I'm not saying Naruto's character wont ever be truly strong. I realize that Kenshin is finished, and Naruto is still running. But up until this point[manga and anime], I'd say that Naruto is still only around 15 percent of whatever his max potential is. I would say he has to go through a lot more before he comes even close to being the most powerful character or being in his world - even when he is Kyuubified.
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Old 2004-05-07, 17:07   Link #65
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It's difficult to compare characters and their abilities from different animes...which is why I don't usually do it. Reason being that the world each different anime takes place in is completely different than other anime worlds. Power levels, realism, scale; it's all different. Having said that, it's really impossible to predict how Kenshin and characters from Naruto would fare for one reason: you don't know exactly what Kenshin's speed or abilities are in relation to that of the Naruto world. You can't know if his God like speed in his world is still god like in Naruto's world, or whether it's equivalent with the average Genin. It's this fact that you just don't know that prevents you from accurately comparing how one would fare against the other. That's why I hate comparing animes...especially two excellent ones as these, can't we just enjoy each one for what they are by themselves without have to pit them against each other.
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Old 2004-05-07, 21:02   Link #66
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What you dont seem to understand Seraphim is this.
I completely agree with you about th the two worlds being completely apart. I also understand everything you say about Kenshins fighting style (all though you gave it a bit of overkill)

Anyway, my main point of this thread was to examine the effect of a true swordsmaster in the Naruto world. It need not be Kenshin or any of other Rurouni series character. It can be a Naruto worlld character.

I was interested in this because in Naruto's fights, an amazing number of hits and blows are landed before anyone is defeated. I just think it would be intersting to have a character who is a master swordsman come into the series, because as i mentinoned when you are facing a sword... there is no room to get hit. Take Lee for example.

His utter speed breaks down his opponent and leaves huge openings which he fills with punches and kicks. If there was a character like Lee who mastered the art of the sword, would he or wouldnt he be one of the most, if not THE most dominating ninja in the Naruto world.
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Old 2004-05-08, 01:53   Link #67
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Wolf-Mibu, that was my point as well.

Personally, if there was a ninja that mastered kenjutsu (art of the sword), I doubt that they would be the strongest ninja in all of Naruto. I know for sure that there doesn't seem to be and kenjutsu master in Konoha.

I can see that a ninja like that would have to have a great speed in their Iai. (I believe that's what the art of drawing the sword is. It could be lai.) Then, they could kill instantly.

That, however, would definitely not go under any type of regular ninja-style. Kenshin definitely had an all-powerful drawing technique. Samurai Deeper Kyo had great lai. It's a samurai thing, but Naruto's universe is different and doesn't really follow much history. So, there would be some changes to the style that takes out any hint of bushido or any things that a ninja wouldn't have in their fighting style.

Also, I don't believe that the kenjutsu-mastering ninja would be the most dominating ninja since there probably may be some kind of fault. Who knows how kenjutsu can be portrayed. Most likely though, they would be tough, but they may not be nearly as strong a Shukaku for example. Perhaps they would be as strong as Itachi is currently. Maybe there is a kenjutsu user as strong as Itachi.

The possibilities are endless, but in the end, if one of the main characters had to fight him/her in a death match, most likely, they'll lose.

Now completely on my opinion, he should have some kind of cool defense like and attacke patterns like Neji's spinning ultimate defense except using a sword and releasing chakra. Also, in instant kill move by just drawing your sword would be cool, too. Lastly, I would like it, if there ever is a kenjutsu master, to fight so well, he can cut the wind or something like that.
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Old 2004-05-08, 02:20   Link #68
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Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
What you dont seem to understand Seraphim is this.
I completely agree with you about th the two worlds being completely apart. I also understand everything you say about Kenshins fighting style (all though you gave it a bit of overkill)

Anyway, my main point of this thread was to examine the effect of a true swordsmaster in the Naruto world. It need not be Kenshin or any of other Rurouni series character. It can be a Naruto worlld character.

I was interested in this because in Naruto's fights, an amazing number of hits and blows are landed before anyone is defeated. I just think it would be intersting to have a character who is a master swordsman come into the series, because as i mentinoned when you are facing a sword... there is no room to get hit. Take Lee for example.

His utter speed breaks down his opponent and leaves huge openings which he fills with punches and kicks. If there was a character like Lee who mastered the art of the sword, would he or wouldnt he be one of the most, if not THE most dominating ninja in the Naruto world.

Exactly the point I was bringing up earlier.
the problem is that so far nobody in naruto is training hard enough to be a good enough swordsmen.
we see hayate do a sword technique that looked pitiful. two of gatous thugs were going to use battonjutsu(sp?) but did so pitifully,

thats mostly why I was bringing up the kenshin topic(sorry if that started the whole kenshin vs naruto thing) In RK people devote thier lives to learning the way of the sword yet in naruto its just some mundane weapon that nobody bothers to learn.

If you take lees speed and give him a sword all it would take is one hit.
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Old 2004-05-08, 03:17   Link #69
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Unfortunately a Naruto fan's imagination would still dominate the sword greatly. We see someone like Hayate(? - the first chuunin 3rd exam examiner) wasn't able to defeat the sand jounin with his sword after he overheard the plan to attack Konoha from Kabuto and the other guy. Why? He(the sand jounin) undoubtably is able to do something with his body or armor to make it harder. I'm sure any other ninja with good chakra control ability could use some element to provide as armor against most sword attacks, or would use bushins and kawarimi to make attacks miss. The sword is a one hit, one kill weapon - unfortunately battles in Naruto don't end without first doing some "general damage" or else the other guy is just plain evasive enough to dodge most attacks.
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Old 2004-05-08, 03:40   Link #70
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Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim
Unfortunately a Naruto fan's imagination would still dominate the sword greatly. We see someone like Hayate(? - the first chuunin 3rd exam examiner) wasn't able to defeat the sand jounin with his sword after he overheard the plan to attack Konoha from Kabuto and the other guy. Why? He(the sand jounin) undoubtably is able to do something with his body or armor to make it harder. I'm sure any other ninja with good chakra control ability could use some element to provide as armor against most sword attacks, or would use bushins and kawarimi to make attacks miss. The sword is a one hit, one kill weapon - unfortunately battles in Naruto don't end without first doing some "general damage" or else the other guy is just plain evasive enough to dodge most attacks.


yea, but if you look at the swing of the sword it looked just weak and lame. It was basically just a normal swing but with some sword bushins tossed around to make it look cooler :/

its like I said before, nobody in naruto has any real sword skills since its not an anime that focus' on samurai fights. thus whenever they use a sword it looks weak,slow and lame.
Quote:
unfortunately battles in Naruto don't end without first doing some "general damage" or else the other guy is just plain evasive enough to dodge most attacks
and for the most part the general damage is from punches or little kunais.

see this is what makes this debate so open ended. You can't make any comparisions at all since every instance of swordplay is toned down compared to other shows. with swords being so slowed down,
though it makes complete and perfect sense as to why sword fighting is so toned down compared to something like RK. becuase it wouldn't be a ninja battle if everybody uses swords to slice off peoples heads in a half a instant.

unless we see somebody with a focus on sword techniques that are slow, weak and lame fighting it will be impossible to compare the two fighting arts.
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Old 2004-05-08, 15:42   Link #71
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Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim
Unfortunately a Naruto fan's imagination would still dominate the sword greatly. We see someone like Hayate(? - the first chuunin 3rd exam examiner) wasn't able to defeat the sand jounin with his sword after he overheard the plan to attack Konoha from Kabuto and the other guy. Why? He(the sand jounin) undoubtably is able to do something with his body or armor to make it harder. I'm sure any other ninja with good chakra control ability could use some element to provide as armor against most sword attacks, or would use bushins and kawarimi to make attacks miss. The sword is a one hit, one kill weapon - unfortunately battles in Naruto don't end without first doing some "general damage" or else the other guy is just plain evasive enough to dodge most attacks.
Actually, I was talking about this with someone a little while ago - it started when we were talking about Kill Bill 2 and Gordon Liu's Samurai swords are for Japanese fatheads line - and he said that Japanese swordsmanship focuses on one quickdraw while Chinese swords focus on more general combat - parrying, fighting, all the stuff that happens if the quickdraw doesn't work.

I think for a regular sword to be really effective in Naruto, it would have to be a short sword - something longer would limit your mobility/agility.

Another thing - Asuma uses those knuckle dusters and puts chakra in them. It may be that a ninja can use their own chakra to protect against general impacts (which would explain a lot, actually) and in order for a weapon to be effective, one must put energy in it to make it able to get through chakra-reinforced skin/armor.
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Old 2004-05-08, 16:06   Link #72
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Lemme "play" into this topic a little bit, even though I pretty much previously said has no relevance or meaning. People mentioned that characters in Kenshin really have nothing to do against Itachi's Sharingan - I disagree. Look at the early episodes that involved a guy named Jin-E. This man was a hitokiri like Kenshin who had a mysterious ability with his eye. Basically, he was going around killing government officials and somehow not even being touched by any of the gaurds - even after telling them what time he would be coming. Jin-E used a technique called Shin-No-Ippou which would instill fear/dominance into his opponents eyes and cause them to freeze and not move. Kenshin, however, was relatively uneffected by this technique as his warrior spirit was strong enough to overcome the hypnosis, and he could break it easily. Itachi's sharingan is a very similar technique, and is something that Kenshin would easily break. Of course there are differences, but there is nothing like Sharingan in Kenshin's world, so we have no idea how he would be against it. You can claim to take the word of "only a true sharingan user can match up against it" but that's only an element of Naruto's world. I might as well take words in Kenshin like "no one can match up to Soujiro's speed" and say that no character in Naruto is as fast as him. Another "suggestion" for me to throw out is the occasion when Kenshin fought another Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu user while blind.

freaky eyes wasn't a good strong character to begin with. his tech was a powerstun psychic attack using his eyes by emanation of fear. if the target is fearless it would be useless. a sharingan changes, invisibly, the opponent's brainwaves to alpha to theta to delta (sleep paralysis eheh), theoretically. this tech causes neurophysiological changes of the biologic systems in the opponent. not even someone like Kenshin can avoid that unless he knew how to sheild from it - psionics. willpower or swordsman ki alone isn't enough to stop a specialized technique.

this would be enough to slow Kenshin down (to ahah low low mach speeds) that it won't be to his advantage anymore. he will have to rely on his intelligence to fend off a sharingan ninja.

the way I see it, the more versatile the shinobi is, the chances are better to subdue a one-dimensional master like Kenshin. unless he is an avatar, which I gather he is but the series never hinted such?, he'll have difficulty stopping a jounin like Kakashi. ie: Kakashi's summoning to stop Zabuza was instant once activated (holographic speed that surpasses Kenshin's physics)

if ya all don't know what hologrpahic is, better pimp the google.

the shinobis in naruto have so many options to wax a target, especially the ones who can use magick.
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Old 2004-05-08, 19:06   Link #73
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People need to understand that Kenshin is not the person we are putting in the Naruto world. We are imagining the outcome of a Ninja who is familiar with the world of Ninjitsu but trained his whole life in the art of the sword. How would he and his sword alone be able to fair in this world full of illusions and eerie skills.

The common impulse is for people to jump to conclusions and say errr a Non-Ninja would be killed easily because he wouldnt be able to handle all the ninjistu attakcs.

Quick compliation of a few of the opponents Kenshin has faced and their similiarty to a Naruto type character.

a) As pointed out by EbonySerph, in one of the eariler episodes (episode 7, I believe) Kenshin was faced by an opponent named Jinei. A bloodthirsty shinsengumi who had lost all honor. He used a potent and powerful mind hypnosis to take control and kill his opponents or victims. It did not work for a second on Kenshin because his swords-man spirit was too strong and easily overcame it.
Who does Jinei remind you of? Well i dunno about you but it sort of reminds me of Itachi and his mange-sharingan. Right off that bat from the genral jist of the two series, Itachi is vastly more dangerous but you get my idea. The notion of mind domination is not something that a swordsmaster the calibur of Kenshin for example would fall for. On that note, a Naruto world Swordsmaster who devoted himself completely to his art (instead of going through ninja acedmies and such) would probably be immune to most of the techniques. Mange sharingan would probably still have an effect but techniques such as Ino's would be short lived as they would easily overcome it.

b) Some people point to Hayate and say he used a sword as well. Errrr anybody can hold a sword. Carrying one around doesnt tell us how good he was with it. He lost to the sand Ninja who killed him with a "sword made of wind" type thing that Hayate could not block against. Again this reminds me of another Kenshin opponent. Around episode 20'ish he fought a man named Raijuta. Raijuta used the same attack that the sand Ninja used on Hayate. An invisble blade made of air that cut you. How the sand ninja did it, they do not say but Raijuta was swinging his sword so fast he was causing some kind of air vortex and projecting it towards his opponent. Again this crap doesnt work against a swordsmaster such as kenshin, and so I reaching a bit ill have to conclude that Hayate was not a very good swords man at all.

c) Some people may say, Kenshin would be fooled or confused to hell by illusions and shadow replications. First of all, stop saying Kenshin. Im using kenshin as an example. I dont literally mean him. Someone brought up in the naruto world would be familiar with the technques used and fight accordingly.
When Kenshin first fought against Aoshi (A prodigy but very different type of ninja than narutos) , Aoshi used a technique that would hold its own in a Naruto fight.
He circled his opponent with illusions of himself that flowed around hypnotically so that the opponent had no idea when or where the attack would come from. But kenshin was able to beat it because he could sense when particular illusion switched to offence.

In conclusion. Lee needs to go find a mr. Soujiro Hiko type fella and then come back in 10 years and become Hokage
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Old 2004-05-08, 19:33   Link #74
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We talkin about series of kenshin here or ova. In ova he is nowhere as fast..looks more realistic. Also "swordsmens" comes in different speed, take demon eyes kyo and gantz from berserk for example.

As for kenshin, I doubt he can do much in the naruto world. If naruto was to make 1000 clones..he wont stand a chance since theres no way of telling. Just have 500 jump on top of him..as for speed..well kakashi is NOT slow. In the chunnin exams..gai demonstrate his speed to sasuke+co, first off gai was there..next thing hes behind them, even with suijiro you can tell when he moves + he gotta do the foot thing. Sasuke reply to that speed was: hes as fast as kakashi, no faster. Usually when you say that about someone, their speed is better but not that much thats why it was doubted in the first place as being equal.
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Old 2004-05-08, 21:15   Link #75
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We talkin about series of kenshin here or ova. In ova he is nowhere as fast..looks more realistic. Also "swordsmens" comes in different speed, take demon eyes kyo and gantz from berserk for example.

As for kenshin, I doubt he can do much in the naruto world. If naruto was to make 1000 clones..he wont stand a chance since theres no way of telling. Just have 500 jump on top of him..as for speed..well kakashi is NOT slow. In the chunnin exams..gai demonstrate his speed to sasuke+co, first off gai was there..next thing hes behind them, even with suijiro you can tell when he moves + he gotta do the foot thing. Sasuke reply to that speed was: hes as fast as kakashi, no faster. Usually when you say that about someone, their speed is better but not that much thats why it was doubted in the first place as being equal.
You are basing your claims on speculation and fantasy. Please give a valid argument to what you say. Also we are obviously talking about the series kenshin and not the ova.
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Old 2004-05-08, 21:59   Link #76
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Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
You are basing your claims on speculation and fantasy. Please give a valid argument to what you say. Also we are obviously talking about the series kenshin and not the ova.
As everyone else has in this thread, its all made up, there is no valid logic/arguements. You can support/say all you want but in the end theres no vaild arugement for crossovers.

I would think it'd be cool to have a swordsman actually use a sword in Naruto, Zabusa and Kisame had them, but rarely used them (in Kabusa's case).
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Old 2004-05-08, 22:03   Link #77
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As everyone else has in this thread, its all made up, there is no valid logic/arguements. You can support/say all you want but in the end theres no vaild arugement for crossovers.

I would think it'd be cool to have a swordsman actually use a sword in Naruto, Zabusa and Kisame had them, but rarely used them (in Kabusa's case).
Indeed, but theres a difference between backing up your speculation and not backign it up.
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Old 2004-05-09, 19:26   Link #78
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Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
Indeed, but theres a difference between backing up your speculation and not backign it up.
Whats not backed up about it? Unless your head is too slow to analyse situations yea thats not backed up. For the gai case i clearly pointed out a reason as to why kakashi is not slow, i didnt put fantasy there, it showed in the anime first he was there, then hes behind sasuke. Thats true speed, much faster than kenshin. Of course this is silly to begin with cos its different worlds. Say hey itachi vs goku? lol..As for the clones..i clearly pointed out how naruto would beat him. If I didnt back up my claim Id just say naruto will beat him, i told you what he would do, and do after that. I dont see how kenshin would get up from 1000 naruto jumping on top of him.
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Old 2004-05-09, 22:07   Link #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realdeal
Whats not backed up about it? Unless your head is too slow to analyse situations yea thats not backed up. For the gai case i clearly pointed out a reason as to why kakashi is not slow, i didnt put fantasy there, it showed in the anime first he was there, then hes behind sasuke. Thats true speed, much faster than kenshin. Of course this is silly to begin with cos its different worlds. Say hey itachi vs goku? lol..As for the clones..i clearly pointed out how naruto would beat him. If I didnt back up my claim Id just say naruto will beat him, i told you what he would do, and do after that. I dont see how kenshin would get up from 1000 naruto jumping on top of him.
"First he was here...and then he was there" - that is a very common thing that anime does to show a character's speed. What you have to realize is that they didn't exactly move from point A to point B in under X seconds. That speed is just a realization that is pretty much: when an attack comes, the fast person is able to see it, dodge, and place himself somewhere where the enemy is completely open to attack. Samurai did it all the time as they would roll, turn, and twist or whatever around their opponent. If this "disappear" speed was a true speed of the character, then they could definitely make chase extremely fast. No one would be able to run away from some of the fastest people like Gai, Lee, and Kakashi. What's my backup for acknoledging that this "dissappear" speed is only this kind of realization? Look at times in any fighting anime, where character A is obviously weaker and slower than character B. Character A realizes this and runs away from the battle. Sure there is a "battle" range where B might be able to prevent A from running, but once A leaves that range, then B cannot catch up even if he is considered to be 5 times faster. Another argument in this case is Gaara. We have seen him on a few occassions using some sort of teleportation method through his sand - in one instant he is here, and another somewhere else. This isn't something that is speed that will allow Gaara to teleport from point A, to point B that is 2 miles away. There are clear limitations to the dissappear speed. That was just a point of clarification that doesn't go against realdeal just yet.

realdeal - have you ever watched Kenshin? This is not a flame or insult, but you argued that because certain characters in Naruto "disappear," and appear behind someone, that this is something Kenshin cannot keep up with. If you have watched all of the Kenshin series (or much of it at all), you would know that numberous times, Kenshin has done the exact same thing. Especially in the early episodes, where you see Kenshin taking out 40 guys before any of them could even make a move on him. At the same time, when dealing with someone like Soujiro, we see that Kenshin is "grounded" while Soujiro is doing the dissappearing. All that is showing is that Soujiro is faster than Kenshin - or else you would wonder "why isn't Kenshin disappearing too!!!" Disappearing is a relative thing between two characters where the speed difference is something that should matter - and you cannot compare them in these two anime. If anything, all you can say is that "they both disappear, and they are both equally as fast." Otherwise, you would need a direct comparison if a character in Kenshin fighting against a character in the Naruto world; or a statement in either anime saying that a character from the other anime is faster than them. We all know that no such thing has happened, and never will happen.

I was thinking about making a thread about this, but it isn't something that is too relevant to Naruto: As anime fans in the fighting genre, you shouldn't be too caught up in what the animators show you. Most of them that try to explain the mechanics of their world and are semi-realistic, show unrealistic things to exaggerate or animate some truth - that is what I was calling 'realizations' before. Another example would be Kenshin's "Ryu Tsui Sen" technique. It's a move where Kenshin jumps over the enemies head and pretty much gives a direct blow on the head or shoulder of the opponent. Kenshin was not considered a high "jumper" by any standards in the anime, but during his spar with his master Hiko Seijuro - he jumped probably over 5 stories(scaled hieght) when they both did this move. In the case of this move, the height of Kenshin's jump was used to show the power he was putting into it. In reality, Kenshin is a small and short person who probably couldn't jump higher 36 inches (vertical). Another such realization comes when Kenshin shows fights on a collasal level. Between Kenshin and Shishio, the gravity of this fight and the level of these two swordsmen was extremely high. They both had great convictions and strength during their battle. In real life, one probably wouldn't see it if they were to fight. Their swords would clash and you would see pretty good technique, but nothing to make you go "wow." The animators chose to show the gravity of this battle by furious winds raging, the ground shaking upon impact of their two swords, and their Ki's - Kenshin's warrior-ki disturbed the leaves and caused wind, as Shishio's made the fires blaze hotter. Neither of these two things would happen in a real life, but that is what they were trying to show through their animation and depiction. My example shows in a few battles in Naruto too - the beginning of Naruto vs Neji, and the hokage fight. While it's nice to think that Naruto and Neji have the ability to make such winds, that is only Temari's ability. The animators were showing something completely different during that fight.

Point number two[still to realdeal] - how could Kenshin not beat 1000 13-year-old boys? Err...he moves faster than all of them, knows what all of them are going to try to do, evades all of them, and takes them out one by one - that is one way. Another could be the fact that all 1000 of them cannot be right next to him at the same moment, so he only has to deal with a group of at most 10 at a time that are near him anyways. Unless your opinion of Kenshin is pretty low, it should be obvious that 10 Naruto clones wouldn't touch him. Of course you would argue against both of those arguments, but they are undeniably ways of imagining Kenshin winning the fight. At the same time, I could easily imagine ways for Naruto to win the same fight. The problem is, the two worlds don't have a meter to compare characters between then fairly.

I hope I'm not completely coming off as someone who think's Kenshin (or characters in his anime) would completely own Naruto characters. The problem I see is that there are so many gimmicks in Naruto that make fans of it (all members here) so prone to using their imaginations, that pitting anything against Naruto characters, would result in the other side being "worse." I just want to "settle the bias" and have it known that you can't compare two different anime characters in the way that realdeal is going about it. It really shouldn't be compared at all because both entities are imagined, and both worlds have different limitations on the beings that exist in them.
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Old 2004-05-09, 22:32   Link #80
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Buuuutt....then again. Wolf-Of-Mibu wanted the question to be more of "would a sword wielding character in Naruto that has an extremely high degree of mastery of swordmanship, be a good character?" My answer simply put is yes. Now I'll waste more of your time saying why:

Unlike a lot of the attacks of Naruto's world, swords are weapons of sure kills. When someone is cut with a sword (especially when their head is cut off) there is no surviving - at least you are put into a situation where the next hit will probably kill you. We do see someone like Tsunade is able to survive being stabbed with a sword, but healing a stab wound in that case is only a matter of the same human healing functionality of closing wounds. If she was cut across the torso such that her top half (the better half ) was severed from the bottom half, I doubt such a thing could be healed. Ignoring her now because she is a special case anyways - what other characters could have survived such an attack? Even a hokage (Sarutobi) was killed just by bleeding to death after being stabbed through the lower back/spine. I think the reason Kenshin was brought up was because it was an anime that had many such refined sword skills - pick one, and imagine a character in Naruto had them. I'll go with Hiten Misturugi Ryu, Kenshin's style. Honestly, this style is full of intricacies that never let the user's gaurd down as all attacks have two stages in case the first one fails*.

I think the problem with this "concept" of swordplay in Naruto is the level of violence and blood associated with it. It is a little too realistic of a weapon that the creators do not want to see kids messing around with after they watch an episode of Naruto. Also, because of the nature of the sword as I described above, it would be kind of unfair to introduce this deadly element. If you think the examiner's (Hayate's) sword attack wasn't deadly and therefore swords would be ineffective, consider this move is pretty much genjutsu mixed in with a simple swing of the sword. Characters in Kenshin that have refined their swordsmanship for many years would have a swing that armor could not stop, and they wouldn't expect a straight attack to land. It would be a combo of attacks. Considering a scenario with a refined swordmanship in Naruto, such a person would be at a bit of an advantage assuming he is still adequate in speed, relfexes, and the chakra department.

Quick note - while supposedly Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu has two stages to every attack that can never let the users gaurd down, it requires that Kenshin actually care to execute the second stage which is a high degree of effort. You wouldn't see him using the second stage most of the time unless it was necessary or hit initial intention.
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