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Old 2014-05-15, 19:34   Link #61
Eragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Typeblue View Post
If you see a contradiction in what I wrote please point it out instead of allude to it.

When you said the whole human body theory (substituted for your lack of better words) has been debunked, are you stating a fact or just speculating, if it is a fact then please show your source. Otherwise you might as well just write " Men can give birth to babies irrespective of their physical make up"

There is a reason why the 100m dash record for females is 10.49 and the male record 9.58. Even the guy who comes in last best the 10.49 female record. If you don’t understand simple concepts like the biological make up of the human body; then I am just wasting my time with you.
Work on your reading comprehension, maybe. Seeing what you posted next, I'm so not going to waste my time on you.

Apparently, showing strong (physically and mentally) female characters without pigeon-holing them into 'tard streotypes is making a political statement. Nice to know we are living in 1800's.
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Old 2014-05-15, 22:21   Link #62
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I'd love an explanation as to why sakura couldn't destroy obito's eye that doesn't involve her being a weak-minded girl
Dat medical oath: First do no harm

or goku told her not too. remember how pissed krillin was when goku said stopku lmao. (stole that one from an avatar here

also. the meteors from the kage fight was just chibaku tensei?! whack

also. the author appeared to draw some concern/surprise on sasukes face when sakura jumped out (like a boss). but he is hypersensitivity to battle and ultimate reacted like he was suppose to. i think he cares. he just knows that now is not the time to be distracted by such things
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Old 2014-05-15, 22:44   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
Apparently, showing strong (physically and mentally) female characters without pigeon-holing them into 'tard streotypes is making a political statement.
This manga actually has strong women, and they aren't all pigeon holed into "tard stereotypes". What is really lacking are said strong females significanlty showcasing their talents. Still, I don't think this is really the big issue some people like to make it out to be. I view it as simply a style of manga, and considering some of your listed favorites, its a style you seem to enjoy, strangely.

There are plenty of manga where all the strong leads happen to be females, there are of course those where the strong leads are male, and then there are those that are pretty balanced. So what? Its not like this manga was about super amazon female-ninja and then suddenly there are no female leads. At what point did you expect this to change? After reading 100 chapters? 200? 500?

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Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
Yeah. Her first thought after getting her attack was blocked was that Sasuke-kun still doesn't care and not how Madara blocked her attack.
Its ironic that you made a snarky comment about someone's reading comprehension because it turns out the bolded text is exactly what she thought about right after her attack was blocked. She was suprised and actually commented to herself about how he could have managed to do it and called it some kind of "invisible wall".

She noticed Sasuke's indifference when it was contrasted by Naruto's concern. Earlier in this fight she had a fake smile because her instincts tell her something is still not right about Sasuke. These are simply very brief forshadowing hints for the conflict later on. I mean, she simply took a glance and had a thought in three small panels, is this really such a big deal?

I think this may actually turn out to be a bit more interesting than it seems. It could be that Sasuke did try to help her, but she simply didn't have the ability to see or "sense" that the other Madara shadow Sasuke attacked (or blocked?) was about to attack her. From her perspective its just "some kind of wall".

(The following is not necessarily directed towards Eragon, though I'm sure it applies to you.)

...And poor Sakura can just do no good. If she stood by and did nothing people would use that to fuel some ridiculous tirade about Kishimoto hating women. Yet she jumps in and tries to help -as opposed to what several people thought she'd do- and its still somehow used against her. She was not given the power of the sage like Sasuke and Naruto, but she tried to do something anyhow, how is this a bad thing? She's bashed whether she's fighting or healing, what can she do that would make you people satisfied?
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Old 2014-05-15, 22:59   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger View Post
I think this may actually turn out to be a bit more interesting than it seems. It could be that Sasuke did try to help her, but she simply didn't have the ability to see or "sense" that the other Madara shadow Sasuke attacked (or blocked?) was about to attack her. From her perspective its just "some kind of wall".
i agree and this is what i was trying to convey in the last paragraph of my post above. this battle is for it all and sasuke knows that. i mean he knows this they cant afford to get sidetracked. sakura made a call (and a good one). she activated her seal so there was no worry about a fatal wound (in theory). sasuke was aware of this and was right on her heel ready to strike with that interesting looking sword.
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Old 2014-05-15, 23:56   Link #65
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It's true, no matter what happens the complainers will always find something to complain about. This is the result of both Kishi's and Kubo's awful writing when it comes to displaying the strength of a character, regardless of gender.
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Old 2014-05-16, 03:45   Link #66
Eragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger View Post
This manga actually has strong women, and they aren't all pigeon holed into "tard stereotypes". What is really lacking are said strong females significanlty showcasing their talents. Still, I don't think this is really the big issue some people like to make it out to be. I view it as simply a style of manga, and considering some of your listed favorites, its a style you seem to enjoy, strangely.

There are plenty of manga where all the strong leads happen to be females, there are of course those where the strong leads are male, and then there are those that are pretty balanced. So what? Its not like this manga was about super amazon female-ninja and then suddenly there are no female leads. At what point did you expect this to change? After reading 100 chapters? 200? 500?
When did I say this manga was all about female characters ? I simply expected her to grow out of her crush (obsession) - which apparently happened at the start of shippuden unless I'm mistaken - and she would be less of an emotional mess and would, as you said, showcase her talents which were at one point flaunted.

Quote:
Its ironic that you made a snarky comment about someone's reading comprehension because it turns out the bolded text is exactly what she thought about right after her attack was blocked. She was suprised and actually commented to herself about how he could have managed to do it and called it some kind of "invisible wall".
Fair enough.

Quote:
She noticed Sasuke's indifference when it was contrasted by Naruto's concern. Earlier in this fight she had a fake smile because her instincts tell her something is still not right about Sasuke. These are simply very brief forshadowing hints for the conflict later on. I mean, she simply took a glance and had a thought in three small panels, is this really such a big deal?
I guess my expectations for her letting go of him didn't mesh with the writers then. Her character has been revolving around him for way too long I feel. Given, Naruto has been just as obsessed difference being he has done a lot of other stuff in his quest to bring Sasuke back.


Quote:
(The following is not necessarily directed towards Eragon, though I'm sure it applies to you.)

...And poor Sakura can just do no good. If she stood by and did nothing people would use that to fuel some ridiculous tirade about Kishimoto hating women. Yet she jumps in and tries to help -as opposed to what several people thought she'd do- and its still somehow used against her. She was not given the power of the sage like Sasuke and Naruto, but she tried to do something anyhow, how is this a bad thing? She's bashed whether she's fighting or healing, what can she do that would make you people satisfied?
I didn't say anything about her charging right into Madara. I was pretty shocked that she actually took initiative, even if I expected what happened next.
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Old 2014-05-16, 04:04   Link #67
itachi-san314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger View Post
Its not like this manga was about super amazon female-ninja and then suddenly there are no female leads. At what point did you expect this to change? After reading 100 chapters? 200? 500?
for me, i expected it after the 3 year time skip. sakura was grown up and supposedly matured and then she had a significant hand in taking down an akatsuki member. it looked like she was finally a legitimate main character and member of team 7. but then she was knocked unconscious by kabuto at the heaven and earth bridge and it was all poor weak sakura since then. she's supposed to be a ninja and all we get is an emotional nurse with a one-sided crush (who can bash things really hard when it doesn't effect the plot). the only way to explain it aside from kishi's writing of females would be if she were uchiha like obito being an emotional wreck, but she isn't.
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Old 2014-05-16, 07:29   Link #68
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Hey now. Didn't he hold her hand? That means his ignore tactic is at the level of Hooked (see: How I Met Your Mother). That's a far higher level than "pretend doesn't exist".
The what? *runs off to google*
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Old 2014-05-16, 08:05   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
Work on your reading comprehension, maybe. Seeing what you posted next, I'm so not going to waste my time on you.

Apparently, showing strong (physically and mentally) female characters without pigeon-holing them into 'tard streotypes is making a political statement. Nice to know we are living in 1800's.
There are a lot of false activist out there who think everything is discrimination. Sexism is real. Lots of women are discriminated against daily and it is wrong. In many countries, all over the world, women are held back by an arbitrary invisible line. Navy Seals don’t allow women in their ranks = sexism. No women has yet to pass the Marine Corp Officer Infantry Training = not sexism

Naruto does not promote any false gender stereo types. Naruto follows the same plot as most Shonnen Anime. The main characters gets strong…friends try to keep up, but as time goes on they become useless and are reduced to spectators. sakura is not playing house while Naruto is fighting Madara. Every female Ninja in Naruto is just as able as their male counterpart. It just so happen that the Mangaka chose to focus on 2 male lead. You may be confusing your inferiority complex with sexism; otherwise I am not sure how you could translate an innocent manga such as Naruto as sexist.

If you are looking for an Anime or Manga where the female characters do most of the fighting and most of the rescuing, I recommend Mai Hime. It’s a great Anime. You will feel right at home. Until then you can take to twitter and promote the hashtag “Remove sexism from Naruto” It could be the beginning of a revolution
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Old 2014-05-16, 08:12   Link #70
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
she's supposed to be a ninja and all we get is an emotional nurse with a one-sided crush (who can bash things really hard when it doesn't effect the plot).
She is primarily a healer, but no, thats not all we get(we dont get much tbh), its simply all people focus on. As for her only being allowed to bash things trivial to the plot, unfortunately, thats how pretty much all the other Konoha ninja have been trivialized other than Sasuke and Naruto, so I don't think in her case, this is done just because she is a female. For what its worth, she had one of the best fights in the manga back when other Konoha ninja mattered.

I remember when Sakura fooled all the rookies and went after Sasuke herself, I thought that was pretty ninja-like and showed gumption. Yet, instead of realizing this, people called her "stupid", an "idiot", etc. for doing it, despite the fact that she probably saved several of the rookies lives that way.

Yes, she ultimately choked at the end when she couldn't bring herself to kill Sasuske, but so did Sarutobi(twice) when he couldn't bring himself to kill Oro, yet no one eviscerates his character for not being able to kill someone he loves who turned evil --which can also be called "sexist" in an of itself if we're being that anal about things.

Quote:
the only way to explain it aside from kishi's writing of females would be if she were uchiha like obito being an emotional wreck, but she isn't.
Or how about her simply being a female who happens to be emotional. If poor Chouji was a female oh wow lol. A girl who compulsivley eats, is conscious about her weight and emotional? "Kishi" is the freaking antichrist for women.
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Old 2014-05-16, 09:39   Link #71
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger View Post
She is primarily a healer, but no, thats not all we get(we dont get much tbh), its simply all people focus on.
what else is there post sasori fight? keep in mind i mentioned the mindless bashing

Quote:
As for her only being allowed to bash things trivial to the plot, unfortunately, thats how pretty much all the other Konoha ninja have been trivialized other than Sasuke and Naruto, so I don't think in her case, this is done just because she is a female.
where you are off is that she is a main character and member of team 7. the others are clearly ancillary characters

Quote:
Or how about her simply being a female who happens to be emotional. If poor Chouji was a female oh wow lol. A girl who compulsivley eats, is conscious about her weight and emotional? "Kishi" is the freaking antichrist for women.
sure, hiruzen and chouji are "weak" ninjas. they have said so themselves. the difference is that there are strong men (a lot) to counteract their weakness. name me 1 'strong' female in this manga who isn't being saved/giving birth/crying/failing/scared/having a silly crush/etc...
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Old 2014-05-16, 10:00   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger View Post

Or how about her simply being a female who happens to be emotional. If poor Chouji was a female oh wow lol. A girl who compulsivley eats, is conscious about her weight and emotional? "Kishi" is the freaking antichrist for women.
You forgot to add that the Ramen Noodle Guy is also a woman… How typical of the chauvinistic male Mangaka, putting women in traditional gender roles.

I mean the the facts don’t lie:
Only 2 of the 5 Kages are Women. Look at the Legendary Tsunade for example; she is always portrayed in the traditional, stereotypical negative gender role… she is a drunk, brute, and decisive leader. Remember against Orochimaru – Jiraiya was handicapped by drugs; and Tsunade by her trauma of blood. The only thing Tsunade did was defeat Manda (one of the strongest summons) and punch the crap out of Orochimaru. Jiraiya on the other hand was showing one flashy move after another.

I am glad that at times like this; common sense can still prevail…. Thanks Artful-Dodger. Just curious, is your forum name, Artful Dodger, a reference to the U.K garage group or Oliver Twist?

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
what else is there post sasori fight? keep in mind i mentioned the mindless bashing

where you are off is that she is a main character and member of team 7. the others are clearly ancillary characters

sure, hiruzen and chouji are "weak" ninjas. they have said so themselves. the difference is that there are strong men (a lot) to counteract their weakness. name me 1 'strong' female in this manga who isn't being saved/giving birth/crying/failing/scared/having a silly crush/etc...
I agree. I felt the same way when Picolo and Krillin could no longer keep up with the saiyans… I thought it was a discrimination against the Namekians and Humans. There were main characters in the manga and became useless
And what about Kakashi; he became useless after the Zabusa fight. He was a main character and a member of team 7. Do you think the Mangaka has something against the partially blind?
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Last edited by Hunter; 2014-05-18 at 17:48.
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Old 2014-05-16, 10:28   Link #73
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^I don't think you know how to sarcasm
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Old 2014-05-16, 10:47   Link #74
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^I don't think you know how to sarcasm
And you Sir, are "the most interesting man in the world"
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Last edited by Typeblue; 2014-05-16 at 10:47. Reason: spelling
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Old 2014-05-16, 11:11   Link #75
Artful_Dodger
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
what else is there post sasori fight? keep in mind i mentioned the mindless bashing
Like everyone else, not much. The manga has become increasingly focused on Sasuke and Naruto leaving everyone else out, so I'm convinced she became trivialized because she's not Sasuke or Naruto, not because shes a female.

Quote:
where you are off is that she is a main character and member of team 7. the others are clearly ancillary characters
That makes no difference. Everyone besides Naruto and Sasuke has been reduced to a support role, mains included(i.e. Kakashi). The story now is about them, and how they will use their inherited sage powers to solve the problems of the ninja world. Do you really believe if team 7 were three males, "Sakuman" wouldn't be trivialized eventually, as everyone else has?

Quote:
sure, hiruzen and chouji are "weak" ninjas. they have said so themselves. the difference is that there are strong men (a lot) to counteract their weakness. name me 1 'strong' female in this manga who isn't being saved/giving birth/crying/failing/scared/having a silly crush/etc...
Hilarious, so a woman giving birth in this manga is an issue as well. How dare he. Anyway, most of the female ninja in the manga are actually strong and serve as counters to the stereotypes you complain about. And being saved and "failing" doesn't mean much because Naruto, Sasuke and others are saved countless times in this story. The strongest ninja ever in this story have also failed. So what.

As for a few counters, I'd say Temari, Tsunade, Anko, and Mei Terumi are good counters to the female stereotypes you're complaining about. None of them take any shit from anyone and they don't act like Sakura when it comes to their love interests(those that have them).

Again, this manga has some bad-ass females, the problem is that we don't get a chance to see them in action --just as we didn't get to see interesting people like Neji, Rock Lee, and the others in part II, who were really cool in part I. I don't see this as a sexism issue, this is simply the problem with the dumbass shounen law where one or two guys get all the attention, focus, and power-ups.

People like me, "Midnight Commander" and others discussed this plenty of times. Its why the war arc was so disappointing: it was a big chance for all the cool characters to show us something new after being out of the story for so long, yet they were trivialized even more. At least Sakura is given the opportunity to do something more than hold Naruto's Rasengan balls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Typeblue View Post
You forgot to add that the Ramen Noodle Guy is also a woman… How typical of the chauvinistic male Mangaka, putting women in traditional gender roles.

I mean the the facts don’t lie:
Only 2 of the 5 Kages are Women. Look at the Legendary Tsunade for example; she is always portrayed in the traditional, stereotypical negative gender role… she is a drunk, brute, and decisive leader. Remember against Orochimaru – Jiraiya was handicapped by drugs; and Tsunade by her trauma of blood. The only thing Tsunade did was defeat Manda (one of the strongest summons) and punch the crap out of Orochimaru. Jiraiya on the other hand was showing one flashy move after another.

I am glad that at times like this; common sense can still prevail…. Thanks Artful-Dodger. Just curious, is your forum name, Artful Dodger, a reference to the U.K garage group or Oliver Twist?
lol nice points. Too bad some people are concentrating on the sarcasm and are addressing that instead of the points being made.

My name is in reference to how I'm able to dodge and escape the points in forum debates so craftily! j/k. I'm familiar with the band and I've read Oliver Twist but I simply just like the name :P. If its in reference to anything it would be Oliver Twist though. I think James asked me the same question when I just joined lol

Last edited by Hunter; 2014-05-18 at 17:47.
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Old 2014-05-16, 12:06   Link #76
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It would be Epic if you selected the name "in reference to how you are able to dodge and escape the points in forum debates so craftily!" .
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Old 2014-05-16, 16:34   Link #77
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oh you two...

there's a lot wrong with what you said, but based on your answers you won't acknowledge it. so to keep it simple, i'd love to hear an explanation as to why the weakest link in every team is the girl character. and if you want to quibble about one or two girls being tied for last or something, then explain why a girl isn't the strongest in any team please
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Old 2014-05-16, 22:58   Link #78
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
oh you two...

there's a lot wrong with what you said, but based on your answers you won't acknowledge it. so to keep it simple, i'd love to hear an explanation as to why the weakest link in every team is the girl character. and if you want to quibble about one or two girls being tied for last or something, then explain why a girl isn't the strongest in any team please
Team Samui


hey, thats sasuke's rinnegan on the moon...what a twist!
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Old 2014-05-16, 23:59   Link #79
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
oh you two...

there's a lot wrong with what you said, but based on your answers you won't acknowledge it. so to keep it simple, i'd love to hear an explanation as to why the weakest link in every team is the girl character. and if you want to quibble about one or two girls being tied for last or something, then explain why a girl isn't the strongest in any team please
Hinata's the strongest on her team. Ino while not necessarily being strong has been at least as useful as Shikamaru who isn't really strong either. Temari isn't necessarily weaker than Kankuro.

Karin is probably stronger than both Jugo and Suigetsu.

Tayuya's genjutsu was the only Sound Four technique that Kabuto used that was really a threat to Sasuke and Itachi. They were lucky they were within eyeshot of eachother.

Konan wasn't the weakest in Akatsuki. Obito had to use Izanagi just to not die.

Mei isn't the weakest of the current kage either. She's probably stronger than Gaara at least.
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Old 2014-05-17, 00:41   Link #80
Typeblue
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
oh you two...

there's a lot wrong with what you said, but based on your answers you won't acknowledge it. so to keep it simple, i'd love to hear an explanation as to why the weakest link in every team is the girl character. and if you want to quibble about one or two girls being tied for last or something, then explain why a girl isn't the strongest in any team please
Are you referring to the Konoha 11 or 3 person teams in general? 3 man teams were meant to function like the holy trinity; the kind that you see in MMO’s. You have your Tank, Warrior and your Healer. Brute strength is not the only way to gauge someone’s strength or usefulness.

Like Artful Dodger explained earlier, we never got a chance to see the development of many of the characters, male and female, so I can’t tell you if Ino is stronger than Choji, or if Sakura is more useful than Sai;

Let’s say for a minute that you are right, do you think that the statistics in Naruto are far off from real life statistics. Someone in this forum said there are no African Americans in Naruto because of the setting. Well in a military setting, in in real life, men on average, do better than their female counterparts on Physical Fitness assessments. Yes they are plenty of women stronger than men; there are plenty of women that can kick my butt..., but the key is “on average”
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