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Old 2014-05-16, 20:13   Link #21
Fireminer
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Have anyone notice that the more realistic the mecha, the more powerful (as a soldier) would the pilot be?
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Old 2014-05-17, 04:11   Link #22
RoboMambo
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Well, the more super the robots get, the more the pilots fall into other things, like guts, friendhip, and flashy attacks, than actual piloting. And when characters can't do these things, either the battle is borefest of standing mechas shooting straight, or maneuvering and using tactics.

It's most noticeable in Gundam. The more op the gundam and the series variation of newtypes get, the less moments there are when the thing aren't solved with either beam spams or newtype powers.
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Old 2014-05-17, 09:09   Link #23
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That's the thing about super robots. They have an indestructible quality to them and some OP attacks so the pilot skill is less emphasized. Cause why do you need that?
Just look at things like Ideon or Mazinkaiser.
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Old 2014-05-17, 09:22   Link #24
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That's why I love break blade. Delphine is (sort of ) super robot, but it can't be properly repaired so for every damage it recieve Rygart has to became better pilot. until point he pawn one of best existing pilots in that manga by pure swordsmanship
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Old 2014-05-17, 10:51   Link #25
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Speaking of which it's kinda silly they build all those giant robots just to let it end in melee/sword fights. :P
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Old 2014-05-17, 11:45   Link #26
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Originally Posted by itisjustme View Post
Speaking of which it's kinda silly they build all those giant robots just to let it end in melee/sword fights. :P
Usually, in real-robot genre, there’s an in-story explanation of why people can’t just push a button and send long-ranged ballistic missiles to fry their enemy from miles away. For example, in Gundam UC-verse there’s Minovsky Particles that jammed the radar and shit that render weapons like long-range ballistic missiles or cruise missiles useless. So they depend on MSs and other missile-pod-mounted war-vehicles to go near enough (usually to visible distance) to launch the guided missiles. In Evangelion (yes, it’s still within real-robot genre), the enemy has AT Field that can only be breached by another AT Field around the EVAs' bodies so close combat is kinda unavoidable (that, or NERV is forced to used their one-and-only Longinus Lance). Break Blade world doesnt have missile technology and only has pressure guns and its variants to damage enemy golems from afar. In Patlabor, they mostly deal with urban Labor-crime that forced them to be very careful with their action in neutralizing the enemy’s Labor and not causing unnecessary casualties or property damage. That’s why most fights end up with the Ingrams shoving electric baton down enemy Labor’s throats or heads (it’s quick and a lot less destructive than using shotguns). There are more examples that I haven’t mentioned here of course.

As for fights that end in melee...let’s see. In real-robot genre, not every fight between giant-mechas ends with close-combat. I mean, surely you’ve seen how so many mechas (usually grunts) met their end or got one-shot by their enemies using long-range weapons (like missile pods, rifles, and particle cannons) in battles, haven’t you? And when two opposing ace-pilots duking it out and their long-range weapons are out of juice, guess what’s the next best thing to do? That’s right, using their trusty melee weapons to continue the fight (the alternative would be to flee or getting killed/defeated or somehow have a quick negotiation with your enemy to stop fighting for a moment ). So, melee fight is not really that eyerolling given the situation.

On the other hand, the Super-Robot genre is always silly and guilty-as-charged. That’s part of their charm .
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Last edited by Obelisk ze Tormentor; 2014-05-17 at 11:55.
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Old 2014-05-17, 13:33   Link #27
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EVAs in general are arguable tvtropes classify them as SR, wikipedia explicitly says it's arguable and gave them same paragraph for both entries, super robot wiki put them on unclassified. So no EVAs aren't RR per se.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itisjustme View Post
Speaking of which it's kinda silly they build all those giant robots just to let it end in melee/sword fights. :P
Actualy there would be no point build humanoid-shaped weapons unless you have meele fights on mind. Well that's why mecha would be silly idea overally.
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Old 2014-05-17, 13:43   Link #28
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I think Eva is sort of like G-gundam where it's like a mix of super and real robot.

This distinction is especially prominent in Banpresto's game, Super Robot wars, where they have a mix of real and super robot stats unlike the purely super robots and the purely real robots.
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Old 2014-05-17, 13:55   Link #29
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Originally Posted by itisjustme View Post
Speaking of which it's kinda silly they build all those giant robots just to let it end in melee/sword fights. :P
It's the same reason why it's really hard to insert tension in modern/advanced warfare sometimes and there's such nostalgia for melee/up close style fighting.

*Pushes button*
*Launch Nuke*
*Explodes*

While people may love explosions, there's just a lack of a personal aspect to it. It's easy to build up conflict when the protagonist and antagonist are face to face with another. As technology has improved, war has become more of an efficient killing machine and much is out of the individual's control-- and thus the act of combat has become a lot more cold and impersonal. It's much easier to slaughter people you don't even see. Though that in itself can be a theme, of which was very prevalent after World War II and during the Cold War.

Of course, that's just from a romantic, somewhat delusional point of view that many may have. War is never glorious and only causes destruction. The only valor comes from those that seek to end the war as soon as possible while avoiding more destruction, and that is one point Tomino drives home in many of his Gundam series, even if he had absolutely no subtlety towards it.
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Old 2014-05-17, 15:14   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
EVAs in general are arguable tvtropes classify them as SR, wikipedia explicitly says it's arguable and gave them same paragraph for both entries, super robot wiki put them on unclassified. So no EVAs aren't RR per se.
It’s funny how you said “EVAs in general are arguable” but then conclude it nonchalantly that “EVAs aren't RR” in one short paragraph. Talk about contradiction .

I agree that it is arguable though, but at least unlike many super-robot animes, the pilots didn’t shout their “finishing techniques” out loud (hell, EVAs don’t even have any “finishing techniques”), the EVAs don’t have a signature pose every time it appears on-screen like super-robots did, they don’t have fancy gattai sequences, they need serious maintenance and doesn’t run on awesome-ness alone, and the people & government’s reaction and treatment to them are quite real unlike many super-robot animes out there like Gurren Lagann, Voltus V, Gaiking, Getta Robo, etc.
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Old 2014-05-17, 15:53   Link #31
Tenzen12
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I said: "EVA aren't RR PER SE". Though I don't find particulary suprising you don't know what that means.

Last edited by Tenzen12; 2014-05-17 at 16:25.
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Old 2014-05-17, 18:44   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
That's why I love break blade. Delphine is (sort of ) super robot, but it can't be properly repaired so for every damage it recieve Rygart has to became better pilot. until point he pawn one of best existing pilots in that manga by pure swordsmanship

I are with this for sure, though I wish the manga would come out quicker

He's definitely one of my favorite new pilots, though he doesn't ever have any experience unlike Zess, but he's sort of just learning on the way through the way. His unwillingness to fight isn't original, but I think that's part of why he's so likable. As a pilot though, he does a lot of dumb things but I would say why his mecha has some unbelievable ancient power, it's sort of weird since he doesn't use magic.
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Old 2014-05-17, 20:30   Link #33
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
I said: "EVA aren't RR PER SE". Though I don't find particulary suprising you don't know what that means.
Eh, “Per se” means “by itself”, while imo Evangelion by itself is actually a real-robot anime in its core (only with biological mechas and enemies from space) for reasons I already mentioned in my previous post above. So my point still stands.

Also, Evengelion being “arguable” in this case means the show has both SR & RR-elements, thus we can claim that EVA belong to RR, SR, or both, but we cannot deny one element or the other like what you did. In my previous post, I said “Eva is still within RR genre”, but I never denied its SR-element by saying “Eva is not SR Per Se” because I know Eva is partly SR.
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Old 2014-05-18, 00:39   Link #34
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There's absolutely no way I can consider evas as real. Sentient mechas, each one with a single pilot, with strange and mostly magical powers, and whose performance depends on the pilot's state of mind. If you where to consider these as real robots, then what's super? Stuff always regarded as super or borderline (Mazinger and King Gainer, for example) are more real than this. They lack the more stylistic elements (eg. calling attacks, finishers), but have all the more technical elements.

Now, the setting does have real elements and the show carries itself more like a real than super, even if it has monsters of the week. But the mechas themselves are on the super side of the divide.
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Old 2014-05-18, 01:34   Link #35
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Originally Posted by RoboMambo View Post
There's absolutely no way I can consider evas as real. Sentient mechas, each one with a single pilot, with strange and mostly magical powers, and whose performance depends on the pilot's state of mind. If you where to consider these as real robots, then what's super? Stuff always regarded as super or borderline (Mazinger and King Gainer, for example) are more real than this. They lack the more stylistic elements (eg. calling attacks, finishers), but have all the more technical elements.
Let me get this straight, when I said Eva, I meant Evangelion as a show, not just the mechas. If you read my posts above, I even acknowledge that the mecha part is one SR-element of the show. But many other things in the show (for example, setting, like you mentioned) are actually treated like in the real world.

Please also note that I think style does define the show greatly. I always think SR as "shounen with mechas" with calling attacks, finishing moves, power-ups, long fancy sentai-esque gattai sequences, etc while Real-Robot doesn't have those things (or at least not as "fabulous" or over-the-top), and they often keep it to the limit of practicality within the mecha genre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboMambo View Post
Now, the setting does have real elements and the show carries itself more like a real than super, even if it has monsters of the week. But the mechas themselves are on the super side of the divide.
That is actually what I'm talking about all this time. Evangelion has real-robot setting and carries itself as one, but with alien enemies (and mechas) & alien technology in it.
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Old 2014-05-18, 04:15   Link #36
Tenzen12
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Eh, “Per se” means “by itself”, while imo Evangelion by itself is actually a real-robot anime in its core (only with biological mechas and enemies from space) for reasons I already mentioned in my previous post above. So my point still stands.

Also, Evengelion being “arguable” in this case means the show has both SR & RR-elements, thus we can claim that EVA belong to RR, SR, or both, but we cannot deny one element or the other like what you did. In my previous post, I said “Eva is still within RR genre”, but I never denied its SR-element by saying “Eva is not SR Per Se” because I know Eva is partly SR.
What you are saying that mule is in metter of fact horse, yeah it still "has elements of both", but I can as well claim EVA is SR in core and it will have as much merit or more than what you said.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2014-05-18 at 10:37. Reason: Let's STOP with the veiled insults and DROP the tangent...
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Old 2014-05-18, 04:30   Link #37
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A pilot that comes to mind for me is Maximilian Jenius, from Macross. Not even the protaganist, nor antagonist, yet is probably the best pilot on both sides of the conflict, and gets the girl. (Who is the second best pilot in the series I think, and the divide between the two is measured in nanometers, while third best is several millimeters away) That's something different.
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Old 2014-05-18, 05:00   Link #38
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Yeah Max is great character.
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Old 2014-05-18, 05:52   Link #39
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Max kinda loses points for being in Macross 7 and even losing the girl.
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Old 2014-05-18, 06:44   Link #40
Tenzen12
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Macross 7 is best macross!! (oh and can you remind me what happened his wife? She wasn't one let herself die so easily)
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