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Old 2014-04-02, 19:00   Link #1
Kairin
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Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Q&A/Discussion about Magic & Technology

The purpose of this thread is for questions and discussion for Mahouka related to Magic & Technology.

Given that this is a source material thread, you are expected to have some familiarity with the source material before participating, and therefore some spoilers are to be expected. However, if you will be discussing major plot points that could spoil plot events that people may not have read yet, please be considerate and use properly-labelled spoiler tags. Properly-labelled means that the label identifies what the reader should already know before opening the tag.




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Old 2014-04-04, 06:55   Link #2
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I wish the was more creativeness about the exposition, there are times one just has to stop reading because despite being detailed the exposition is way too tedious, and it's far longer han any I've found on Index series.
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Old 2014-04-04, 07:45   Link #3
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I'm not really clear about Absorb and Release System magics.
Anyone has an idea about how they work?

from manga example
Spoiler for Modern magics:


I think Absorb selectively gather something to mix with something, is that right?

what are your guys opinions?


btw, what are the difference between Convergence/Dispersion and Absorb/Release? I feel they are almost identical.

p.s. I know it's painful but there's no use crying over spilled thread, guys. Let's make this our new start and one day we shippers will rise!!!
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Old 2014-04-04, 17:00   Link #4
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Originally Posted by CatRules View Post
I'm not really clear about Absorb and Release System magics. ...
Anyone has an idea about how they work?
Well I think the best thing would to be use their actual definitions and then go from there. Its also important to note that magic can also increase or decease any of these actions.

Absorb - to take in something in a natural or gradual way
Emission/Release - the act of producing or sending out something (such as energy or gas) from a source.
My opinion then is:
Energy or molecules are taken within an target; Energy or molecules are released from inside the target



Convergence - the act of coming together and meeting
Diffusion/Dissipate - to separate into parts and disappear
My opinion then is:
Separated targets gather together or Gathered targets separate.

Last edited by Guest2; 2014-04-06 at 02:21.
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Old 2014-04-05, 18:01   Link #5
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Looks like in absorption, you take two things and make them one thing. (Iron + oxygen = rust.) In convergence, you just gather stuff in one place.

The one I don't get is the difference between movement and acceleration. Really, the differences between acceleration, aggravation, movement and oscillation seem rather arbitrary and vague.
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Old 2014-04-06, 02:20   Link #6
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I felt those are the easiest to understand. Its also important to note that magic can increase or decease any of these actions.


Movement - relocation of an object from 1 point to another
Oscillation/Vibration - a periodic motion about an equilibrium position
My opinion then is:
The re-positioning of a target from a starting area to a separate area via maximum force of direct movement; The frequency of a stationary Target's vibrations are manipulated, and depending on the level, a target's molecular energy can be modulated.



Speed/Acceleration - Rapidity in moving
Weight - The force that gravitation exerts upon a body
My opinion then is:
The naturally occurring forces explained by physics that occur between molecules are targeted, i.e. acceleration, deceleration, resistances, coulomb/electrostatic force, gravity, etc.
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Old 2014-04-06, 02:45   Link #7
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But you can't move something without imparting speed to it. So what's the separation?
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Old 2014-04-06, 02:58   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But you can't move something without imparting speed to it. So what's the separation?
Explication found on the wikia:

The difference between Movement Magic and Speed Magic is that Movement Magic does not affect the inertia of an object. If an egg were subjected to only Movement magic, it would break itself apart.
Oscillation Magic involves the vibration of targets. Waves can be produced, controlled and dampened with this magic.
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Old 2014-04-06, 03:03   Link #9
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
The difference between Movement Magic and Speed Magic is that Movement Magic does not affect the inertia of an object. If an egg were subjected to only Movement magic, it would break itself apart.
Which, I'm sorry, just sounds like babble to me. What the hell does it mean that inertia isn't affected, and why would that break an egg?
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Old 2014-04-06, 03:13   Link #10
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Which, I'm sorry, just sounds like babble to me. What the hell does it mean that inertia isn't affected, and why would that break an egg?
Well inertia is the tendency for an object to stay in the form that it is in(an object at rest wants to be at rest, an object in motion wants to stay in motion). If you suddenly make the molecules in the egg move a lot faster than it normally does through an unnatural mean, then it will override inertia and thus the form of the egg would break. That's how i kind of interpreted it.
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Old 2014-04-06, 03:19   Link #11
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But you can't move something without imparting speed to it. So what's the separation?
You're wrongly assuming that since one of those magics was used other actions shouldn't occur.

Any magic used to create a specific unnatural action does not prevent other reactions from still occurring naturally. You have to keep in mind that magic sequences do not directly affect molecules and forces. It affects an alternate dimension and the magician's orders are accommodated by reality however necessary. But unless the magician also use extra magics to adjust the other relevant forces, they may get an unwanted result because of reality's simple and forceful interpretation of their wish. Tatsuya gave a good example of this in v2 about an egg.

If unnatural movement is requested - acceleration and etc. happens naturally.
If separation magic is used - movement and acceleration etc. happens naturally.

Last edited by Guest2; 2014-04-06 at 03:29.
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Old 2014-04-06, 04:23   Link #12
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
You're wrongly assuming that since one of those magics was used other actions shouldn't occur.

Any magic used to create a specific unnatural action does not prevent other reactions from still occurring naturally. You have to keep in mind that magic sequences do not directly affect molecules and forces. It affects an alternate dimension and the magician's orders are accommodated by reality however necessary. But unless the magician also use extra magics to adjust the other relevant forces, they may get an unwanted result because of reality's simple and forceful interpretation of their wish. Tatsuya gave a good example of this in v2 about an egg.

If unnatural movement is requested - acceleration and etc. happens naturally.
If separation magic is used - movement and acceleration etc. happens naturally.
And as I said, the egg example was just confusing to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceHism View Post
Well inertia is the tendency for an object to stay in the form that it is in(an object at rest wants to be at rest, an object in motion wants to stay in motion). If you suddenly make the molecules in the egg move a lot faster than it normally does through an unnatural mean, then it will override inertia and thus the form of the egg would break. That's how i kind of interpreted it.
If you give speed to an object with magic, there should be one of two things:
- it's accelerated, and following Newton's 2nd Law, it's exactly as if a force is applied to the object.
- it isn't accelerated, because magic. It just gains speed, which means, in the referential of the object, nothing actually happens. (Until a wall jumps at it or something.)

So, which is which magic, and why should it break an egg?
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Old 2014-04-06, 04:49   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And as I said, the egg example was just confusing to me.
The egg example was just a side note. My main point was
Quote:
You have to keep in mind that magic sequences do not directly affect molecules and forces. It affects an alternate dimension and the magician's orders are then accommodated by reality however necessary.
You have to be more specific about what in Tatsuya's explanation here was confusing?
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
The side note I pointed out here is that acceleration still happens but it is uncontrolled since the magic spell only specified movement. Was the separate short summary I made also confusing?
Quote:
If unnatural movement is requested - acceleration and etc. happens naturally.
If separation magic is used - movement and acceleration etc. happens naturally.
If so, which part?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If you give speed to an object with magic, there should be one of two things:
- it's accelerated, and following Newton's 2nd Law, it's exactly as if a force is applied to the object.
- it isn't accelerated, because magic. It just gains speed, which means, in the referential of the object, nothing actually happens. (Until a wall jumps at it or something.)

So, which is which magic, and why should it break an egg?
Which magic is which is explained. Your still wrongly assuming for magic that both actions cannot occur together. A single magic process defines one action or the other, but others still happen but only one is controlled by the magic.

Last edited by Guest2; 2014-04-06 at 05:05.
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Old 2014-04-06, 05:57   Link #14
Anh_Minh
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What's confusing? Everything. Let's take the top example. What's the difference between acceleration and movement? Or between acceleration and deceleration? Or heck, what's the difference between this example and the one after that?

And what, are you saying that movement is just acceleration with the force maxed out? It seems strange to make a whole other system just for that.
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Old 2014-04-06, 07:38   Link #15
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What's confusing? Everything. Let's take the top example. What's the difference between acceleration and movement? Or between acceleration and deceleration? Or heck, what's the difference between this example and the one after that?
OK hold up, I'm still getting confused on what you'e asking. Are you saying you've never learned or understood the difference between moving something from one place to another, or increasing and decreasing a moving object's speed, even with the above pictures? You really need to specify what part of what I specifically quoted was confusing.

Or are you asking why the author chose a classification system that separates movement and acceleration magics when the actions go hand in hand?

If that's what the confusion is, the simplest guess I can come up with relates to the compatibility between the psion magic sequences themselves, since for specialized CADs only magics for one group can be loaded. Which is all just made up anyway, so the author just chose a simple set of groups that fit well with his idea for magic in his plot.

The Mahouka modern magic classification system is stated as just a grouping of magic sequences mainly after observing what the magic does. They could have been classified in several other ways and it is not a new set of rules for how movement and acceleration and etc work. The actions produced by each magic group are all closely interlinked, and any of the systematic magics can be easily combined with one another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And what, are you saying that movement is just acceleration with the force maxed out? It seems strange to make a whole other system just for that.
Its seems your confusing what I pointed out. We are not talking about normal movement, but movement magic. You mentioned
Quote:
But you can't move something without imparting speed to it.
...and I tried to answer the literal misunderstanding. There was no mention in the novel that speed was ignored. The novel indicates if only movement magic is used to move an object, then the object is sent to the designated location at a fixed speed with the maximum acceleration it can sustain.
Movement magic is stated as a type of magic that changes an object's speed and path.
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Old 2014-04-06, 07:51   Link #16
Anh_Minh
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OK hold up, I'm still getting confused on what you'e asking. Are you saying you've never learned or understood the difference between moving something from one place to another, or increasing and decreasing a moving object's speed, even with the above pictures?
Yes.
Quote:
Movement magic is stated as a type of magic that changes an object's speed and path.
Which, in terms of Newtonian physics, means accelerating it. Thus my confusion.

In terms of physics, "changing an object's speed or trajectory", "accelerating it" or "decelerating it" are all the same thing, described by the equation f = ma.

So what does magic do, and what's different in acceleration and movement magic, and why would an egg break?

(For example, does it suspend Newtonian physics for a bit? Does it create a force?)
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Old 2014-04-06, 09:48   Link #17
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you could understand "Movement" in magic here like the alteration of the coordinate of the target in the information dimension.

For example, object A is standing at (x,y,z), you applied magic (changing the Eidos of the object recorded in the information dimension) so that its coordinate (in the info. dimension) is now (a,b,c), THEN the object will be moved over that destination.

For acceleration, you just change the object's velocity

Another analogy would be picking up a chess piece vs pushing it

So in short, "Movement" type magic alters the coordinate (in the information dimension) of the target, while "Acceleration" deals with velocity. They may produce similar phenomenon and end result, but their nature and properties are different
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Old 2014-04-07, 19:24   Link #18
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes.


Which, in terms of Newtonian physics, means accelerating it. Thus my confusion.

In terms of physics, "changing an object's speed or trajectory", "accelerating it" or "decelerating it" are all the same thing, described by the equation f = ma.

So what does magic do, and what's different in acceleration and movement magic, and why would an egg break?

(For example, does it suspend Newtonian physics for a bit? Does it create a force?)
The magic does as requested while physics tries to make up for the difference. The less outrageous the effect it has to do to get the result, the less magic power is required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by From Volume 3 Explanation of Mayumi's Hale Particles spell
"You should understand by now, right? The magic used to accelerate the ice particles is based on taking the heat that is removed from the frozen particles and converting it into the energy of projectile motion, thus scamming the laws of physics. While this runs counter to the law of entropy and is something that would never occur in nature, itís a more logical explanation than simply constructing ice particles, accelerating the ice particles with magic, then applying thermodynamics."
The egg example is weird, but these are the points it's trying to make:

Order for moving the item is Acceleration -> Movement -> Deceleration - > Movement (Stop).

If he takes out the Acceleration part, the egg would splat from getting slammed into pressurized air. If he takes out the Movement part of it, the egg doesn't stop accelerating and the magic gets potentially more complicated. If he takes out the Deceleration part of it, the egg will once again potentially splat once he gets to the Movement (Stop) part of it, and if he doesn't use Movement (Stop), the magic again gets too complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 2, Chapter 8
Movement magic is a type of magic that changes an object's speed and path, so if the Increase Speed process was removed, this would cause the object to speed up without regard to inertia, most likely causing the egg to break up.
If the Movement process was removed and only relied on Increase and Reduce Speed to move the egg, the egg would shoot out in a linear fashion, thus necessitating complex deceleration to manipulate. Thus, even though another process was added, it's actually more simple to use a combination of Speed and Movement magics to manipulate movement.
So one way to look at it is, Movement Magic on its own is abrupt movement, and you'd normally use it as an attack on its own. Acceleration/Deceleration Magic is more smoother movement, and is normally used more indirectly in attacks, like Miyuki's Deceleration Zone and Tomitsuka's Self-Marionette.
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Old 2014-04-20, 20:37   Link #19
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Can anyone give me simple definition of tatsuya decomposition ._. i hope its ok to ask bit confuse how simple decomposition works
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Old 2014-04-20, 22:09   Link #20
Lazy cat
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Originally Posted by Ultragunner View Post
you could understand "Movement" in magic here like the alteration of the coordinate of the target in the information dimension.

For example, object A is standing at (x,y,z), you applied magic (changing the Eidos of the object recorded in the information dimension) so that its coordinate (in the info. dimension) is now (a,b,c), THEN the object will be moved over that destination.

For acceleration, you just change the object's velocity

Another analogy would be picking up a chess piece vs pushing it

So in short, "Movement" type magic alters the coordinate (in the information dimension) of the target, while "Acceleration" deals with velocity. They may produce similar phenomenon and end result, but their nature and properties are different
you explained it better than the author
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