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Old 2014-06-07, 12:42   Link #261
Guest2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My Zodiac Aries View Post
so you can use Gram Demolition to destroy Meteor Stream, right ?
You can use G. Dem to counter any spell whether it be Lina's HMB, Maya's Meteor Stream or Mio's Abyss. What's important is the ridiculous amount psions required to wash away their spells and the luck to actually be in position and fast enough to blast all of their spells to bits before they can take effect.
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Old 2014-06-07, 13:26   Link #262
Kokus
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@klanggen
the range of ES
vol 8 he used ES to target a bulled he decomposed and rebuild range 20km
vol 7 cap 13 with satellite link and 3d image
1.) 0,5 mg droplet of water 80km range
2.)From within Tsushima Base, across the strait, directly into Zhènhai Naval Port 1kg flag
(idk the km count but far more than 100km)

Last edited by Kokus; 2014-06-07 at 13:29. Reason: spelling
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Old 2014-06-07, 15:09   Link #263
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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
His attack was interrupted by Nao, but the novel states he already took out his Cad from his inside pocket before Nao interfered, and mentions later he had Lina in his Cad's sights. And I didn't pick up on any emphasis, just words of shock from Lina that a person's arm can instantly grow back. Lina's omission of the words CAD, hand and clothes is something I believe can be overlooked since they are all linked to the arm.

[...]
The part I'm seeing implies his intent -- taking it out -- was interrupted. He outlined what he was going to do, but gets interrupted before carrying it out with no clear point as to where it was interrupted.

Spoiler for Volume 10, Chapter 12, right before Naotsugu interferes:


I also don't see any mention about Lina (or anything she's wielding) actually being in his CAD's sights until AFTER he jams it in Brionac.

Spoiler for Volume 11, Chapter 13:


The earlier mention of CAD in the chapter, to me, seems to be him theorizing that with the practice he had (i.e. he "thought"), he should be able to target the correct Lina with the CAD now. Not that he actually had her targeted at that moment.

Spoiler for Volume 11, Chapter 13:


If he was actually keeping her in his CAD's sight at that moment, there's no reason for him to be thinking that he could, he'd be doing it and finding out yes/no right away.
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Old 2014-06-07, 15:46   Link #264
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Originally Posted by Rava View Post
The part I'm seeing implies his intent -- taking it out -- was interrupted. He outlined what he was going to do, but gets interrupted before carrying it out with no clear point as to where it was interrupted.

Spoiler for Volume 10, Chapter 12, right before Naotsugu interferes:


I also don't see any mention about Lina (or anything she's wielding) actually being in his CAD's sights until AFTER he jams it in Brionac.

Spoiler for Volume 11, Chapter 13:


The earlier mention of CAD in the chapter, to me, seems to be him theorizing that with the practice he had (i.e. he "thought"), he should be able to target the correct Lina with the CAD now. Not that he actually had her targeted at that moment.

Spoiler for Volume 11, Chapter 13:


If he was actually keeping her in his CAD's sight at that moment, there's no reason for him to be thinking that he could, he'd be doing it and finding out yes/no right away.
It plainly says he took it out in that quote. There was no interruption yet mentioned at that point.

And Cad's sights was mentioned before he followed Lina and you quoted that as well. Cad's sights mean his Cads sights to me, since the novel says he took out his Cad before. And of course there is a need to mention that he thinks he could, since the paragraph went on to explain she was no longer using Parade to falsify her position due to her focusing on using HMB, and so he couldn't actually test his conclusion.
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Old 2014-06-07, 16:21   Link #265
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and see how it gets drawn out or animated then; I really can't see how you're interpreting that way.
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Old 2014-06-07, 17:25   Link #266
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I was never arguing that Yakumo was better. I am talking about Ninjustu because Yakumo teaches Ninjutsu techniques, and the novel only gives a comparison with Tatsuya being the favourite/best as Yakumo's pupil.

My comments were around the detail that nothing in the novel indicates Yakumo or Tatsuya are better at martial arts than Yanagi or Kazuma, and that magicians use magic in martial arts in every close combat scene in the novel so comparing just their martial arts is not enough.
Alright, so you agree that in pure martial arts Tatsuya is better.

Quote:
And as I said the author mentioned without Trident, and I personally don't believe those states matter, because those only relate to his magic power. And the novel already makes it clear he has some ridiculous rare powers which do the impossible whether he is sealed or unsealed, in close range or long range, whether he is trying to kill or not. So mentioning them had no real relevance to my original comment. A Tatsuya with limitations is still an incredibly powerful and immortal opponent that specializes in martial arts and countering magic.
Yes those states relate magic power, but Magic Close Combat is completely tied to magic power too, it's the combination of both magic and martial arts, so depending on the state he's in his level in magic CQC differs.

What I do agree is in his sealed state they'd be able to either tie or barely defeat him if he's not using Trident, but once unsealed we won't know, he has yet to even fight anyone in his unsealed state.

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My point is a single use of Decomposition can be be countered as seen in v12. But if Tatsuya bombards a person with powerful spells like Masaki did to him, then the the opponent's counter magic would eventually fall short as seen in v4. V12 mentioned Tomitsuka's armour could be broken through although it would be difficult.

I don't know what novel passage makes you believe no one could ever call forth enough psions to use Gam Demolition to counter Tatsuya using single decomposition spells, but I believe this an exaggeration since Tomitsuka had enough surrounding him. I agree it was stated as rare to find Gram Demolition users. So far we only know that regarding psion counts, only a few others like Miyuki and Tatsurou are mentioned to have a similar psion count to Tatsuya.
Why are you talking about single decomposition spells ? What matters is that in practice GDemolition is useless against Tatsuya's innate magic because if he wills it he can call forth enough of it to make GD useless since with multiple instances there is no one in the world who can use enough GD at the same time to block the all and thus GD is useless against Tatsuya, why talk about using a single instance when Tatsuya can go up to 36 ?

Quote:
Since I don't believe there is anything indicating G Dem wouldn't work on single spells, and the novel states Mayumi could have still used her counter magic in v3 to dispel the unfavorable situation created by several talented magicians in the bus incident, despite her lower psion count, I believe you are mistaken.
Again, why would Tatsuya use a single instance of decomposition ?


Quote:
If you are only surprised about 2 G Dem users being in the same year, then I am shocked I never heard you comment about the 3 Master Clan descendants all being in the same year. Or by the fact that rare and somewhat successful experimental descendants like Leo and Honaka, a kenjutsu prodigy, an ancient magic prodigy, a legendary spirit sensory talent and two siblings of different ages from the most powerful Japanese magic clan all ended up in the same school and year and became friends.
Of course all those prodigies and such are also bs, It just never came up. As for Tomitsuka, it's not that he can use GD, it's because of that specific Gram Demolition spell and his damn armor, this is a defect, so practically no one else has it, and he just happens to be in the same place as Tatsuya, our protagonist against whom Tomitsuka's abilities are one of the worse matches there is.

Quote:
Tomitsuka's ability still lost to Tatsuya's specialty and his presence is just 1 of many astonishing coincidences in 1st High, and my opinion is that it just makes the novel more interesting for me.
When you spam too many coincidences it's not interesting, it's unrealistic. And even if he lost he should've lost way faster than that if not for the damn armor.

Quote:
It doesn't seal his Decomposition, its not magic so he cannot use counter-magic, but only makes it more difficult to use Decomposition. You are exaggerating his struggling with Tomitsuka, since in the novel Tatsuya has had the same problem against 3 others in v4, and the limitation on him was the same, that being its a friendly magic school match with rules against him using lethal magic.
Tatsuya never had that problem in v4 against anyone, there is a massive difference. This was a friendly match indeed, however even if this wasn't the case Tatsuya's decomposition would still not work against Tomitsuka(except for Material Burst) and would lead to a longer struggle and harder fight than it should(it would've been a OHKO otherwise)

Quote:
My opinion is different since the author said the armour could be broken through, and Tatsuya was able to use his specialty GD to drop him anyway. Tatsuya has struggled in friendly matches before several times, it was no different in Tomitsuka's case. For some reason I cannot understand you keep ignoring the details about that from the novel.
In a real battle it would take Tatsuya several minutes to accomplish that, something that shouldn't even happen if not for the fact that the armor can block decomposition magic.

Quote:
My comment here was referring to your Miyuki and Shizuku comment, not Tatsuya. I was never discussing about Tatsuya's magic being sealed, because I never felt it was relevant to my original CQC topic. His magic is already ridiculously potent even with the seal, and without the seal it just means he overpowers his opponent with pure magic still, just faster. Yakumo is stated to have impressive raw magic power, so its still a possibility his natural magic defenses would still be enough to slow Tatsuya's magic.
It is still valid, Miyuki's control not being tied with Tatsuya means she can cast magics with much more ease and proficiency and thus she can win with much more ease. Tatsuya under the seal was able to hit Lina with decomposition, if unsealed his raw power goes up there is no way in hell Yakumo can do anything, and don't forget if the battle starts with Tatsuya wielding Trident then it's even worse, Yakumo would just get OHKO by Trident the spell which ignore magical defenses.
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Old 2014-06-09, 07:38   Link #267
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Well Tatsuya has a diverse arsenal of skills hidden under his sleeves.

More so he is just playing it safe and only shows a meager part of his wide skill arsenal, but if he wanted to cause a catastrophe, he can do it at the whim.

Just the MB and Elemental Eyes is enough to destroy everything in his path.
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Old 2014-06-09, 10:09   Link #268
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Originally Posted by Jirachier View Post

In a real battle it would take Tatsuya several minutes to accomplish that, something that shouldn't even happen if not for the fact that the armor can block decomposition magic.
Actually Tomitsuka's ability would not allow him to last 10 seconds against Tatsuya in a real battle, since he could just amplify sound like he did with Masaki to knock Tomitsuka out. Tatsuya's own eardrum would instantly heal anyway. Thing is that it would be bad form to damage someone like that the Tatsuya vs Tomitsuka match shown. Also unlike in the Masaki battle, Tomitsuka couldn't try to keep Tatsuya at range since his magic doesn't reach that far so the first time he attacks is all that is needed to beat him. Once knocked down it would take Tatsuya almost no time to kill him even if he can't use decomposition. Sure he can block one of Tatsuya's unique magic, but all it does is change it from instant kill, to taking a few seconds in a real fight.

Ultimately I think the battle's purpose was to introduce a restriction on decomposition for the future, than it was to show that Tomitsuka was a counter character to Tatsuya. That or the author just forgot about the sound amplification spell since it had been around 8 volumes since it was used XD.

edit: By a restiction on decomposition I do not simply mean Tomitsuka's ability, but that it doesn't have an effect on unordered Psions, which could be used for in future situations besides just close-contact gram demolition.
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Old 2014-06-09, 10:15   Link #269
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Originally Posted by Sinarblood View Post
Actually Tomitsuka's ability would not allow him to last 10 seconds against Tatsuya in a real battle, since he could just amplify sound like he did with Masaki to knock Tomitsuka out. Tatsuya's own eardrum would instantly heal anyway. Thing is that it would be bad form to damage someone like that the Tatsuya vs Tomitsuka match shown. Also unlike in the Masaki battle, Tomitsuka couldn't try to keep Tatsuya at range since his magic doesn't reach that far so the first time he attacks is all that is needed to beat him. Once knocked down it would take Tatsuya almost no time to kill him even if he can't use decomposition. Sure he can block one of Tatsuya's unique magic, but all it does is change it from instant kill, to taking a few seconds in a real fight.

Ultimately I think the battle's purpose was to introduce a restriction on decomposition for the future, than it was to show that Tomitsuka was a counter character to Tatsuya. That or the author just forgot about the sound amplification spell since it had been around 8 volumes since it was used XD.
When I was reading that fight I couldn't help but think Tatsuya was Testing the waters with Tomisuka. He wasn't going full combat mode lols. Sure Tomisuka's
Spoiler for Tomisuka's magic:
does have it's own advantage against tatsuya but shouldn't IF strength count which is more stronger?
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Old 2014-06-09, 10:22   Link #270
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The volume amplification spell needs preparation and a device, it's not something Tatsuya can use everytime besides, it can easily be avoided as Georges said in vol 5. Tatsuya's specialized magics are useless against his GD so he will just have to best him physically, he was not on the offensive during their battle. Tomitsuka would need to stay in GD mode and attack him but Tatsuya can deal with it, once he tries to use other magics he will lose since the psion armor surrounding him will have a form.

A match between them will take some time though.
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Old 2014-06-09, 10:41   Link #271
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Originally Posted by Ravagerblade View Post
When I was reading that fight I couldn't help but think Tatsuya was Testing the waters with Tomisuka. He wasn't going full combat mode lols. Sure Tomisuka's
Spoiler for Tomisuka's magic:
does have it's own advantage against tatsuya but shouldn't IF strength count which is more stronger?
Aye, testing the waters might be a good way to describe Tatsuya in that battle since he was seeing the interactions he could do against it with checking Decomposition then Oscillation, but I believe that Interference strength was never really shown to have a great effect on Gram Demolition since it is more off a blast of psions to wash away the effects of magic than it is an attempt to rewrite previous phenomena. At most I would imagine that perhaps spells with higher interference strengths simply needs GD with a higher density of psions. Tatsuya's interference strength is somewhat implied to be low seeing how it is one of the things tested for in practical classes, and his practical scores are stated to all be low, but he uses Gram Demolition and Gram Dispersion on opponents with high interference strengths with no problems. So interference strength is hardly a factor for Tatsuya. Also Zone interference (which I believe relies on Interference strength) can be countered by decomposition, so when he is allowed to go all out interference strength hardly matters against Tatsuya, whereas at least Tomitsuka's contact-type gram demolition does block one ability of his. Interference strength mostly comes into play with systematic magic (and probably some forms of ancient magic), whereas Tatsuya's counter magics are non-systematic, and Tatsuya's decomposition can take care of zone interference.

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
The volume amplification spell needs preparation and a device, it's not something Tatsuya can use everytime besides, it can easily be avoided as Georges said in vol 5. Tatsuya's specialized magics are useless against his GD so he will just have to best him physically, he was not on the offensive during their battle. Tomitsuka would need to stay in GD mode and attack him but Tatsuya can deal with it, once he tries to use other magics he will lose since the psion armor surrounding him will have a form.

A match between them will take some time though.
The volume amplification needs no device or preparation in a real fight (which is what I was talking about), because it can be flash-casted, in fact the device and preparation was done simply to hide that he flash casted it. In a "real fight" I assume Tatsuya does not need to go through any restraints to hide anything. Also while it would be easy for Masaki to dodge since his magic is long distance, if Tatsuya used it on Tomisuka when he was trying to hit close range I doubt that he could have got out of it easily, even if he did he might avoid being completely knocked out but I doubt he could get far enough away to have avoided at least getting an eardrum blasted like Tatsuya did, which brought him to his knees, which would be more than enough to win. Even if he can avoid being brought to his knees, the ears are important for balance, and I doubt Tomisuka could stay upright in a high speed battle with his balance weakened unless he did the puppet magic which would get the win to Tatsuya. Not much time would be used.
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Old 2014-06-09, 12:57   Link #272
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Quote:
Well Tatsuya has a diverse arsenal of skills hidden under his sleeves.

More so he is just playing it safe and only shows a meager part of his wide skill arsenal, but if he wanted to cause a catastrophe, he can do it at the whim.

Just the MB and Elemental Eyes is enough to destroy everything in his path.
I don't understand why the MB argument keeps getting used. Until Tatsuya explicitly states or shows that he can use the spell in a live battle rather than shooting a target miles away, please avoid talking about it as a way for him to win battles.

Quote:
Actually Tomitsuka's ability would not allow him to last 10 seconds against Tatsuya in a real battle, since he could just amplify sound like he did with Masaki to knock Tomitsuka out. Tatsuya's own eardrum would instantly heal anyway. Thing is that it would be bad form to damage someone like that the Tatsuya vs Tomitsuka match shown. Also unlike in the Masaki battle, Tomitsuka couldn't try to keep Tatsuya at range since his magic doesn't reach that far so the first time he attacks is all that is needed to beat him. Once knocked down it would take Tatsuya almost no time to kill him even if he can't use decomposition. Sure he can block one of Tatsuya's unique magic, but all it does is change it from instant kill, to taking a few seconds in a real fight.
While the sound amplification makes sense, the fact that the author didn't make Tatsuya use it in that battle is the same as saying it wouldn't work.

Quote:
Ultimately I think the battle's purpose was to introduce a restriction on decomposition for the future, than it was to show that Tomitsuka was a counter character to Tatsuya. That or the author just forgot about the sound amplification spell since it had been around 8 volumes since it was used XD.

edit: By a restiction on decomposition I do not simply mean Tomitsuka's ability, but that it doesn't have an effect on unordered Psions, which could be used for in future situations besides just close-contact gram demolition.
Placing restrictions on decomposition is literally the same as saying the author is coming up with counters for Tatsuya's magic. And well, this isn't something that can be used in the future because it's a defect more than anything, if you try to make it into a spell it becomes susceptible to counter magic like GDemolition/GDispersion, that's why Tatsuya couldn't negate the damn thing.

Quote:
When I was reading that fight I couldn't help but think Tatsuya was Testing the waters with Tomisuka. He wasn't going full combat mode lols. Sure Tomisuka's
Spoiler for Tomisuka's magic:
Contact-type GD
does have it's own advantage against tatsuya but shouldn't IF strength count which is more stronger?
Just because he was testing the water doesn't mean things would've been that much different, he said it himself that Mist Dispersion did not work on Tomitsuka, there is no reason for it to work outside of a friendly battle.
And as for Contact-Type GD, that's not really the problem Tatsuya is having, it's the armor, without it Tatsuya can easily get around the GD.

Quote:
Tatsuya's interference strength is somewhat implied to be low seeing how it is one of the things tested for in practical classes, and his practical scores are stated to all be low, but he uses Gram Demolition and Gram Dispersion on opponents with high interference strengths with no problems
You have to separate his magic power when he's using regular magic and when he's using his innate talents. His interference strength, speed, etc when using Decomposition/Restoration are at the absolute peak of the world.

Quote:
but I believe that Interference strength was never really shown to have a great effect on Gram Demolition since it is more off a blast of psions to wash away the effects of magic than it is an attempt to rewrite previous phenomena. At most I would imagine that perhaps spells with higher interference strengths simply needs GD with a higher density of psions
Higher interference strength requires GDemolition to have more psion in it.
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Old 2014-06-09, 13:32   Link #273
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Originally Posted by Jirachier View Post
While the sound amplification makes sense, the fact that the author didn't make Tatsuya use it in that battle is the same as saying it wouldn't work.
Why, in every other work, people always say: "Because it doesn't show, it means it doesnt' show he couldn't do it. Hence he could do it". (take "index" for example, got those explanations from fans every-single time.)

But here, someone was like:"Because it doesn't show, it means it doesnt' show he could do it. Hence he couldn't do it".


=>When you got a main character who seems capable of doing everything, you want him to not able to do anything.
But when they are some losers with abysmal decision making, below average at everything, you believe they can do anything.

WTF is wrong with you guys?
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Old 2014-06-09, 15:21   Link #274
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Originally Posted by Jirachier View Post


Placing restrictions on decomposition is literally the same as saying the author is coming up with counters for Tatsuya's magic. And well, this isn't something that can be used in the future because it's a defect more than anything, if you try to make it into a spell it becomes susceptible to counter magic like GDemolition/GDispersion, that's why Tatsuya couldn't negate the damn thing.



You have to separate his magic power when he's using regular magic and when he's using his innate talents. His interference strength, speed, etc when using Decomposition/Restoration are at the absolute peak of the world.



Higher interference strength requires GDemolition to have more psion in it.

On the first part, I think we got a bit of a mix in definitions, when I said I don't think that Tomisuka is a counter character, I didn't mean that he didn't have an ability that counters decomposition or anything like that. When I say counter character if I were to give a definition it would be: a character B whose abilities and/or personality are opposing to Character A, and is able to either be able to greatly challenge Character A in either their fights or Ideologies. In some cases since their abilities can be anathema to Character A's they can easily beat them, even if Character A can normally beat characters that would defeat character B.

When I said that I don't think Tomisuka is a counter character it is because I don't see him as being able to greatly challenge Tatsuya in a real fight. It doesn't matter if he can counter one ability if he would still be easily defeated. That said my idea of a counter character might be different than yours, causing the feeling of dissonance in my previous words.

As Bietchie11 has mentioned above, I don't think that the fact that the author didn't make Tatsuya use sound amplification in battle means that it wouldn't work. I even mentioned in one of my earlier posts that he might have found it bad form to blast out an eardrum in a friendly match like this. Also, on top of that Tatsuya would probably have to pretend to have a blasted eardrum again, which he might want to avoid since it makes people needlessly worried. The author might even have just forgot about it when writing the scene, he is human after all. Tatsuya might have avoided it because instantly downing Tomisuka doesn't do what the in novel point of the match was: to showcase the abilities of Tatsuya and Tomisuka for Shippou to have his ego reduced. A simple work around doesn't really do that as effectively. As I can't really see any reason why it wouldn't work, and I can see reasons why he would avoid it, I am hesitant to say it wouldn't work, since there is not the least bit of proof of that. I already mentioned in an earlier post how I doubt he would have been able to avoid it like masaki could have because he has to come close to Tatsuya at some point because he can't do ranged magic, and nothing he has done has given me the feeling that he could otherwise counter it.

Also I meant that there might be cases besides the psion armor in the future that has unordered Psions that will give Tatsuya problems in the future, I never meant to imply that it had to be or even could be in the form of a spell, since that would order the psions and defeat the point. Well I can't think of any situation I am not so bold as to say that the author wouldn't be able to think of any.


On the rest, I thank you for the corrections on Tatsuya's interference strength and on Gram demolition.
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Old 2014-06-09, 23:20   Link #275
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Despite Tatsuya unable to use the normal magic's I'm hoping He'll gain the ability to do so.
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Old 2014-06-09, 23:59   Link #276
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Originally Posted by Ravagerblade View Post
Despite Tatsuya unable to use the normal magic's I'm hoping He'll gain the ability to do so.
Tatsuya's already capable of using normal magic's ... to some extent, thanks to his artificial MCA.

True, it's not at the level of an average magician ... but, he is still in a better situation compared to other BS magicians...

I also doubt that he is going to be capable of gaining the ability to use normal magic at the level of an normal ordinary magician ... since that would make Tastuya ... pretty much invincible
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Old 2014-06-10, 00:00   Link #277
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Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Tatsuya's already capable of using normal magic's ... to some extent, thanks to his artificial MCA.

True, it's not at the level of an average magician ... but, he is still in a better situation compared to other BS magicians...

I also doubt that he is going to be capable of gaining the ability to use normal magic at the level of an normal ordinary magician ... since that would make Tastuya ... pretty much invincible
Nothing wrong with that for me! lol
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Old 2014-06-10, 00:04   Link #278
I'm-here-present
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Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Tatsuya's already capable of using normal magic's ... to some extent, thanks to his artificial MCA.

True, it's not at the level of an average magician ... but, he is still in a better situation compared to other BS magicians...

I also doubt that he is going to be capable of gaining the ability to use normal magic at the level of an normal ordinary magician ... since that would make Tastuya ... pretty much invincible
I have nothing against that... since Tatsuya as he is right now is pretty much one step away from being invincible.
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Old 2014-06-10, 05:13   Link #279
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I have nothing against that... since Tatsuya as he is right now is pretty much one step away from being invincible.
I'm really just waiting for him to go under apotheosis at this point...XD
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Old 2014-06-10, 05:45   Link #280
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That would be ridiculous, given the explanations I would not like this at all. He can stay invincible without power ups.
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