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Old 2014-07-08, 08:45   Link #341
mrSh4dy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
Tatsuya's Regrowth is more of a superpower. I don't understand what you say by vacuum, it doesn't matter where she is because magic is used by linking to the Information Dimension and in the information dimension, the Eidos of everything are printed there. Eidos is an information body so as long as you exist in the material world you have Eidos, even non living things have Eidos.

The details about Regrowth were explained in details in Volume 7 by Miyuki

Spoiler for Miyuki-sensei:


The conventional rules of magic don't apply here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amtro View Post
The Eidos is not magical energy. The eidos are the information structures of all things in mahouka, if you control the Eidos then you control everything. This is why Tatsuya's abilities are so damn potent, because he can make the Eidos do what he wants it to (within the scope of his BS abilities) without having to suffer from the reversion power that everyone else has to deal with.
If Tatsuya cannot reverse energy into matter then he can simply draw it from the restorative powers of the eidos.
That still doesn't explain where he get's the material from.

Eidos are the data of the world and they form the core of that what we see (I got that mixed up earlier).
Now normal mahouka magic is about making changes to the Eidos while the natural balance in the world eventually reverts this back to normal. This is because the data can not be changed externally, but because Tatsuya ability uses the already established data to reform itself it won't be overwritten.
I get that, however what is used to recreate that arm. The human body exists as data in the Information Dimension but in the corporeal world it exists as

Elements in the Human Body
Element Percent by Mass
Oxygen 65
Carbon 18
Hydrogen 10
Nitrogen 3
Calcium 1.5
Phosphorus 1.2
Potassium 0.2
Sulfur 0.2
Chlorine 0.2
Sodium 0.1
Magnesium 0.05
Iron, Cobalt, Copper, Zinc, Iodine
Selenium, Fluorine


Now my problem is where do the elements come from to restore that arm.
-If he cuts of his arm does he regrow it and have 2?
But what did he use to reconstruct his new arm with the 1st one still around?
-If he cuts of his arm does he somewhat partially rewind time which reattaches his arm?
Considering the speed and how it is described this doesn't fit.

This is where I'm lost as to what he actually does.
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Old 2014-07-08, 10:11   Link #342
amtro
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You do realize that he can just fuse sufficient hydrogen atoms to create the other atoms, right?
Regardless, the conversion of energy to mass is a theoretically sound phenomenon.
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Old 2014-07-08, 10:20   Link #343
Navinor
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Really guys, i do not understand why some people want Tatsuya to be weak, or even dislike him like hell.

1. I like the way Tatsuyas Character is build. He is strong from the beginning. He is not an emo character who is always crying, only to become rambo in the end.

Tatsuya is a more realistic character than this rambo heroes or the "funny heroes" (Ise-> Highschool DxD)

Tatsuyas developing has no limits. Because we know still nearly NOTHING about his TRUE powers.

I do not understand people who want to make him weak. He is already very strong because he HAD his "Ganbate" phase already.

With his 17 Years he is a walking, living weapon of mass destruction.

BUT, there is always a problem with that.

He is cold, he has nearly no feelings and yes he is manipulative.

Do you remember Code Geas, Lelouche? He was nearly the same, only with feelings. (Mostly hate)

And what happened in the end to him? Right he died. (The normal way, to end great series in japan)

Tatsuya is build as nearly the same "archetype" of character. And we have an Japanese author.

The light novel will get 25 Chapters and NO INCEST ENDING. That was comfirmed by a contract
from the publisher with the author.

So i think for the guys who do no like Tatsuya. Mosty likely he will die. Oh yes he will get his ultimate "Bad Ass" moment, but after that, he will admit that he is an
"incomplete human" and will sacrifice himself to the greater good.

Because this is a japanese Light novel, with a japanese writer and with japanese way of thinking.

And the most important thing for japanese is to sacrifice themselfes for the greater good.

So calm down guys, i do not think he will survive chapter 25
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Old 2014-07-08, 10:25   Link #344
Echizen777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrSh4dy View Post
Now my problem is where do the elements come from to restore that arm.
-If he cuts of his arm does he regrow it and have 2?
But what did he use to reconstruct his new arm with the 1st one still around?
-If he cuts of his arm does he somewhat partially rewind time which reattaches his arm?
Considering the speed and how it is described this doesn't fit.

This is where I'm lost as to what he actually does.
His arm will reattach almost instantly once it's cut due to the speed but if he willfully suppresses it another one will be created. It copies his Eidos from the past in the ID and the information is pasted on his physical body. His Restoration in the animation depicted it well IMO. Time is rewinded only in the Information Dimension.

Against Lina it was not cut but was disintegrated, it will be the same. But if he had been in this state for more than 24 hours he would have kept one arm forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navinor View Post
Tatsuyas developing has no limits. Because we know still nearly NOTHING about his TRUE powers.
Are you trolling or something? What power of Tatsuya is unknown?
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Old 2014-07-08, 10:57   Link #345
Navinor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
His arm will reattach almost instantly once it's cut due to the speed but if he willfully suppresses it another one will be created. It copies his Eidos from the past in the ID and the information is pasted on his physical body. His Restoration in the animation depicted it well IMO. Time is rewinded only in the Information Dimension.

Against Lina it was not cut but was disintegrated, it will be the same. But if he had been in this state for more than 24 hours he would have kept one arm forever.



Are you trolling or something? What power of Tatsuya is unknown?
Are you agressive or something?

He has still limiters on him? Tons of them? And we do not know EVERYTHING about him. A lot of time till CH 25 to get more information.
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Old 2014-07-08, 11:08   Link #346
Echizen777
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Originally Posted by Navinor View Post
Are you agressive or something?

He has still limiters on him? Tons of them? And we do not know EVERYTHING about him. A lot of time till CH 25 to get more information.
I am not saying that we know everything about him but to say that we don't know his true powers is exaggerated. We know all his techniques, Miyuki is the limiter who can affect his powers to various levels, he was at full power in Vol 7. But even with that he needed the password to be able to use Material Burst. His Decomposition or Regrowth are not better without the limiter, same for Elemental Sight, his weak normal magic can't be strengthened too, Gram spells work via concentration of huge quantity Psions so I don't see how the power can be strengthened when he is able to spam it but it would be the only improvement at best.
So Tatsuya is not that limited when he fights.
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Old 2014-07-08, 11:26   Link #347
Navinor
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Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
I am not saying that we know everything about him but to say that we don't know his true powers is exaggerated. We know all his techniques, Miyuki is the limiter who can affect his powers to various levels, he was at full power in Vol 7. But even with that he needed the password to be able to use Material Burst. His Decomposition or Regrowth are not better without the limiter, same for Elemental Sight, his weak normal magic can't be strengthened too, Gram spells work via concentration of huge quantity Psions so I don't see how the power can be strengthened when he is able to spam it but it would be the only improvement at best.
So Tatsuya is not that limited when he fights.

Yes. But that would not be enough to beat Maya.

And as Tatsuya said to Miyuki. At the moment he is not strong enough to fight against Maya and the Yotsuba.

Maybe some of the limiters are hiding powers in his brain, he acatually even himself do not know about.

Because even in Vol. 7 not ALL of the limiters were removed. And because of that he is feared by Maya and the Yotsuba.

He can pull this things off, even with his "weak" magic at the moment.

And do not forget. He is "Taurs Silver". There will always be improvement for CADs.
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Old 2014-07-08, 11:41   Link #348
Echizen777
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Originally Posted by Navinor View Post
Yes. But that would not be enough to beat Maya.

And as Tatsuya said to Miyuki. At the moment he is not strong enough to fight against Maya and the Yotsuba.

Maybe some of the limiters are hiding powers in his brain, he acatually even himself do not know about.

Because even in Vol. 7 not ALL of the limiters were removed. And because of that he is feared by Maya and the Yotsuba.

He can pull this things off, even with his "weak" magic at the moment.

And do not forget. He is "Taurs Silver". There will always be improvement for CADs.
No he doesn't need to be without limiters to beat Maya, he could have killed here in vol 8. He can kill her because Gram Dispersion counters Meteor Stream.

And he was at full power in vol 7

Spoiler for Proof:


It's like that: Tatsuya at full power has access to Material Burst and more psions, these 2 are not really important in battle because nobody is even close to have a psion count comparable to him excepted his father.
Miyuki can't use Cocytus without the 50% used to reduce Tatsuya's psion count and her control is less good, though it's not a problem as long as she is not fighting a worthy opponent like Lina. Her MP is not literally twice as powerful when Tatsuya is unleashed.

Miyuki can limit his power to various levels and there is the password. These 2 factors plus his emotional problems make him unable to nuke his clan of his own will.

CAD improvement will benefit to everyone but it certainly won't make him able to wield powerful offensive magics other than Mist Dispersion. His innate magics are at their peak, complete Decomposition and almost instant Restoration.
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Old 2014-07-09, 08:45   Link #349
mrSh4dy
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Originally Posted by amtro View Post
You do realize that he can just fuse sufficient hydrogen atoms to create the other atoms, right?
Regardless, the conversion of energy to mass is a theoretically sound phenomenon.
Huh what?
You mean fusion?
Other then needing several other atoms, it requires a red giant, supergiants and a supernovae before he has formed the periodic table.

Obviously this all way too abstract for any story teller to think off. But he's always giving us these major info dumps telling about this magic world, how it works and whatnot. It's just that regrowth breaks the world he set up and I'm just trying to find a logical conclusion that explains regrowth in-universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
His arm will reattach almost instantly once it's cut due to the speed but if he willfully suppresses it another one will be created. It copies his Eidos from the past in the ID and the information is pasted on his physical body. His Restoration in the animation depicted it well IMO. Time is rewinded only in the Information Dimension.

Against Lina it was not cut but was disintegrated, it will be the same. But if he had been in this state for more than 24 hours he would have kept one arm forever.
So basically you're saying he creates something out of nothing?
Or otherwise uses a special particle that can form into the "information" of what used to be, to recreate said "information", but why is only Tatsuya able to manipulate that particle to form something into existence?


The mahouka world has its basis in science and then uses the term magician for those that manipulate the world and it's rules. But what regrowth does is basically breaking the rules and invent some deus ex machina particle, either that or the author just doesn't have the answer.

Last edited by mrSh4dy; 2014-07-09 at 08:55.
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Old 2014-07-09, 11:23   Link #350
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Originally Posted by mrSh4dy View Post
Huh what?
You mean fusion?
Other then needing several other atoms, it requires a red giant, supergiants and a supernovae before he has formed the periodic table.

Obviously this all way too abstract for any story teller to think off. But he's always giving us these major info dumps telling about this magic world, how it works and whatnot. It's just that regrowth breaks the world he set up and I'm just trying to find a logical conclusion that explains regrowth in-universe.
Regrowth breaks nothing, it uses the exact same material that was damaged in the first place. It only rewinds things back to how they were, it creates no matter. Even if hit by Broniac, it is not like the atoms in the arm have turned into energy, they are still there (vapourized but not energy), and regrowth gathers them all back into an arm. Remember how it was mentioned when he repaired his CAD in the Lina fight it stated he used it coordinate information to have all the parts reform in his hand, it is the same thing, the coordinate information relative to the body is used and they are restored. If Tatsuya's arm was cut off, and he used regrowth, there would be no cut off arm on the ground beside him as it would have been used in regrowth. Regrowth creates no matter, it reads the Eidos and restores to a previous state using matter that already was part of that Eidos at the state it was restored to.

The most one could argue about is whether or not it allows the teleportation of inanimate objects to places they have been before, using coordinate information (I highly doubt it could do so to living being entirely as Tatsuya's magic has no effect on the Pushion information body (hence why he couldn't simply decompose the parasites), so that would be like separating the mind and body). As there has only been shown to be multiple Pseudo-teleportation spells and no true ones, it could be argued whether or not this potential aspect breaks the rules of the Mahouka world, but I think that it doesn't as no true teleportation spells only imply that it has not yet been discovered and if regrowth can affect inanimate objects in that way, it is very restricted only to places the item has been before in the last 24 hours.

Last edited by Sinarblood; 2014-07-09 at 12:12.
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Old 2014-07-09, 17:49   Link #351
mrSh4dy
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Originally Posted by Sinarblood View Post
Regrowth breaks nothing, it uses the exact same material that was damaged in the first place. It only rewinds things back to how they were, it creates no matter. Even if hit by Broniac, it is not like the atoms in the arm have turned into energy, they are still there (vapourized but not energy), and regrowth gathers them all back into an arm. Remember how it was mentioned when he repaired his CAD in the Lina fight it stated he used it coordinate information to have all the parts reform in his hand, it is the same thing, the coordinate information relative to the body is used and they are restored. If Tatsuya's arm was cut off, and he used regrowth, there would be no cut off arm on the ground beside him as it would have been used in regrowth. Regrowth creates no matter, it reads the Eidos and restores to a previous state using matter that already was part of that Eidos at the state it was restored to.

The most one could argue about is whether or not it allows the teleportation of inanimate objects to places they have been before, using coordinate information (I highly doubt it could do so to living being entirely as Tatsuya's magic has no effect on the Pushion information body (hence why he couldn't simply decompose the parasites), so that would be like separating the mind and body). As there has only been shown to be multiple Pseudo-teleportation spells and no true ones, it could be argued whether or not this potential aspect breaks the rules of the Mahouka world, but I think that it doesn't as no true teleportation spells only imply that it has not yet been discovered and if regrowth can affect inanimate objects in that way, it is very restricted only to places the item has been before in the last 24 hours.
The only problem with that is the speed at which he does it. It's almost instantaneous, but it's a hell of a lot better then magical clay like particles that replace whatever is missing, so let's go with that.
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Old 2014-07-10, 17:01   Link #352
amtro
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This is unrelated to the current discussion, but it's a common misconception among the fans of mahouka, so I'll correct it here and hope that people read it.
Tatsuya's natural interference strength is not inferior to Miyuki's own, in fact it is greater.

Spoiler for vol 6:


It's his artificial MCA that has inferior interference strength.
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Old 2014-07-11, 10:50   Link #353
Echizen777
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Originally Posted by amtro View Post
This is unrelated to the current discussion, but it's a common misconception among the fans of mahouka, so I'll correct it here and hope that people read it.
Tatsuya's natural interference strength is not inferior to Miyuki's own, in fact it is greater.

Spoiler for vol 6:


It's his artificial MCA that has inferior interference strength.
That's not the same. He said himself it's because it was his area of predilection, he was decomposing stuff. Tatsuya is not born with IS= strength to rewrite Eidos, otherwise he would not be considered as a fake magician by his clan. Miyuki is just being a total brocon here as noted in the text itself.

So far nobody has more IS than her excepted Katsuto.
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Old 2014-07-11, 11:03   Link #354
amtro
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Can you find me the passage that confirms that Tatsuya doesn't have IS? I'm sorry, but if you're getting this from just 'inferring' then that's not going to cut it.
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Old 2014-07-11, 11:32   Link #355
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Originally Posted by amtro View Post
Can you find me the passage that confirms that Tatsuya doesn't have IS? I'm sorry, but if you're getting this from just 'inferring' then that's not going to cut it.
IS is the strength to rewrite Eidos, everybody able to do this is a magician. Tatsuya could not rewrite Eidos before the operation, just break it down and reconstruct it. So he had no IS. There is nothing wrong with this reasoning. If he had IS, he would have been able to use systematic magic.

Spoiler for Vol 8:
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Old 2014-07-11, 14:49   Link #356
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Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
IS is the strength to rewrite Eidos, everybody able to do this is a magician. Tatsuya could not rewrite Eidos before the operation, just break it down and reconstruct it. So he had no IS. There is nothing wrong with this reasoning. If he had IS, he would have been able to use systematic magic.

Spoiler for Vol 8:
To be a bit more specific interference strength doesn't simply have to do with rewriting the Eidos, it also has to do with casting a spell on an Eidos that is already being affected by magic. If the original spell's IS is higher, a second spell with lower IS cannot affect that Eidos until the first spell is done. This is what lead to the original flaws with making flying type magic. That said, Tatsuya's abilities with normal magic is said to be low, with imply low inteference strength with modern magic (and no interference strength with modern magic at all until the operation, of course). That said, it doesn't say anything about his specializations as IS isn't the same for an individual across the board as implied with Maya:
Spoiler:

which implies that IS can apply to "single elements". So Tatsuya's Decomp and Regrowth might have a high Interference strength (allowing them to be cast on an Eidos that already has a spell working on it), even if it sucks for all his other magic. The only thing is that he usually uses counter-magic on things, and he has been stated (via trident) to be able to decompose data-fortification, and zone interference, so Interference strength hasn't really come into play much with him, unlike with other magical technicians.

If it did, and someone for instance cast a spell that targeted their entire body decomposition's IS would have to be greater than their spells to work, but in reality since his counter magic is so strong (and not dependent on his IS at all), that spell would either be countered before the spell was cast, or stripped away as soon as it was done, so really it doesn't come into play.

That said, due to Amtro's quote, and the fact that Decomposition and regrowth is his specialized innate magic, like distribution of light is Maya's, when it comes to those skills I'd have to say that he has exceedingly high IS, even if it is terrible for anything else.

Fun fact: when looking through volume 1 when making this post I found a contradiction on whether or not interference strength is tested in rankings and in the high school:

Spoiler for volume1 isn't tested:

and
Spoiler for volume 1 is tested:


This is probably due to a translation error, but I'd just thought I'd point it out.
I am pretty sure it is tested (the first quote probably being the translation error) but it is a neat little error regardless

Edit: thought I'd include this quote
Spoiler for volume 3:
as proof that IS does not only has to do with rewriting the Eidos, but with the interaction of magic sequences in general.

Last edited by Sinarblood; 2014-07-11 at 14:56. Reason: put what volume my last quote was from.
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Old 2014-07-11, 14:57   Link #357
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^Totally agree with you.

His magic directly interferes with the structural information, it's not the same as the others which alter Eidos, so saying that he has higher IS than Miyuki and the likes is wrong. He has no IS for that kind of thing but a magic which interferes directly with the information structure instead of sending fake signals and stuff. So far there is not a true name to qualify this but it is not Interference Strength, he had no IS and with the operation he gained a low one.

To be able to interfere directly with the information structure(Gram Dispersion) is what makes this counter magic better than Gram Demolition which would have permitted him to decompose all of Masaki's bullets.
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Old 2014-07-12, 03:39   Link #358
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Tatsuya has Interference Strength, it's just he has two values or it, one for his artificial magic calculation area which is at a really weak level, and another value for his innate magic that is a very powerful interference.
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Old 2014-07-12, 11:38   Link #359
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That only pictures out perfectly the image of a mage-killer on Tatsuya. His skills are all set to negate other magicians' magic.
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Old 2014-07-16, 12:56   Link #360
Forbin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrSh4dy View Post
That still doesn't explain where he get's the material from.

Eidos are the data of the world and they form the core of that what we see (I got that mixed up earlier).
Now normal mahouka magic is about making changes to the Eidos while the natural balance in the world eventually reverts this back to normal. This is because the data can not be changed externally, but because Tatsuya ability uses the already established data to reform itself it won't be overwritten.
I get that, however what is used to recreate that arm. The human body exists as data in the Information Dimension but in the corporeal world it exists as

Elements in the Human Body
Element Percent by Mass
Oxygen 65
Carbon 18
Hydrogen 10
Nitrogen 3
Calcium 1.5
Phosphorus 1.2
Potassium 0.2
Sulfur 0.2
Chlorine 0.2
Sodium 0.1
Magnesium 0.05
Iron, Cobalt, Copper, Zinc, Iodine
Selenium, Fluorine


Now my problem is where do the elements come from to restore that arm.
-If he cuts of his arm does he regrow it and have 2?
But what did he use to reconstruct his new arm with the 1st one still around?
-If he cuts of his arm does he somewhat partially rewind time which reattaches his arm?
Considering the speed and how it is described this doesn't fit.

This is where I'm lost as to what he actually does.
So you are implying that there can be TWO tatsuya's if we cut him in half?

I think the Dr wanted to try an experiment like that during his discussion with Fujibashi during the 9SC
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