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Old 2014-06-10, 19:42   Link #1
deltaxxmintpie
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What's stopping Japan from

making an anime on the same production quality as the Avatar series?

This holds especially true for 99% of the anime that Japan has been producing for the past 2-3 years.

Apart from the likes of Shingeki no Kyojin, Gargantia on the Verdurous planet etc for me personally, all the new releases are just plagued with Moe (no offence to those who love that genre), the same old clichéd good defeats evil plot, generic text book characters, obnoxious high pitched overzealous voice acting done by a 11-year old sounding voice actor/actresses etc.

All in all I feel like I'm watching animated power rangers or final fantasy.

So my question is, why does anime consistently and lopsidedly cater towards fan service, moe, cliche archetypes instead of some mature, thought-provoking and well coherent package altogether?

For me I would like to see more series like:

Ghost in the shell
Basilisk
Serei no Moribito
Gargantia
Full Metal alchemist
Gundam 00

And where there is action I want to see a more believable (not realistic) choreography or sequences like those done in Avatar.

Is culture preventing this? Or perhaps anime audience in general?
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Old 2014-06-10, 20:22   Link #2
Sackett
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Japan does produce such anime.

It's just that Japan also produces a bunch of junk along with it.
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Old 2014-06-10, 20:33   Link #3
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I'm going to answer this specific question

Quote:
...making an anime on the same production quality as the Avatar series?
Money, it's not cheap to make multiple season series while maintaining quality.
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Old 2014-06-10, 20:37   Link #4
deltaxxmintpie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I'm going to answer this specific question



Money, it's not cheap to make multiple season series while maintaining quality.
but they have made series on that level of quality before, just look at Basilisk or Serei no Moribito, from beginning to end, everything from animation to soundtrack is top notch.

That being said, Animation quality isn't all that makes a good series, you have justice league or batman series in the west, compared to avatar their animation quality is quite average most of the time, what makes them good is the writing and plot.

Japan needs to break out of the mould and try something different. Hire some professional writers to make a good plot and character scripts. Although not a direct example, a good script makes the difference between game of the year and another disappointment in the game industry. Look at the difference between Final fantasy 13 and Mass effect series.

I just want to know what is stopping them from doing that.
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Old 2014-06-10, 20:39   Link #5
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You really need a wide, paying audience, and of course big productions are big risks.

A lot of people may diss the United States entertainment industry, but fact is that there's a ton of money going around to fuel more ambitious projects and people willing to pay for it as well as the talent that can be bought.
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Old 2014-06-10, 20:42   Link #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
You really need a wide, paying audience, and of course big productions are big risks.

A lot of people may diss the United States entertainment industry, but fact is that there's a ton of money going around to fuel more ambitious projects and people willing to pay for it as well as the talent that can be bought.
You can say that, but you do not need Hollywood to make Hollywood quality production.

South Korean movies and even some chinese films in the recent years have shown production quality in the level of blockbuster hollywood projects with a fraction of the budgets.

And then we have Japanese films with over the top stage acting.
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Old 2014-06-10, 20:46   Link #7
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You cannot hit gold 24/7 with entertainment media. There are a lot of time slots to fill and not enough time to produce quality work to fill them. So quicker produced productions with simple art and animation tends to work out better for the producers and TV executives as they gets stuff on screen and watched.

Sometimes a good idea can get enough backing to get made, but it takes time and money, both of which can be risks a production company might not want.

A recent long term production would be Space Battleship Yamato 2199. They started production in 2009 and finished the airing the last episode in 2013. Or Gundam Unicorn which took freaking ever to come out.
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Old 2014-06-10, 20:47   Link #8
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To the OP - You might want to watch Fate/Zero and Psycho-Pass. I have a feeling you'd probably like them.
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Old 2014-06-10, 20:55   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
To the OP - You might want to watch Fate/Zero and Psycho-Pass. I have a feeling you'd probably like them.
Wow thanks for the recommendation, Psycho-Pass does look like something I would enjoy.

Fate/Zero though, I will try it out. I didn't enjoy fate/stay night because of the sissy main character(I did like saber). I hope this one will be different.
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:00   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie View Post
Wow thanks for the recommendation, Psycho-Pass does look like something I would enjoy.

Fate/Zero though, I will try it out. I didn't enjoy fate/stay night because of the sissy main character(I did like saber). I hope this one will be different.
You're welcome.

Fate/Zero is much more adult/mature than the Fate/Stay Night anime. The lead character is Shirou's father, who's a real badass.

The reason I recommended Psycho-Pass and Fate/Zero is because they're wrote by the same man who wrote the first and last episodes of Gargantia (you can read up on him here), which was in your list. Well, that, and I could see a GitS fan liking Psycho-Pass, that's a pretty smooth transition I think.
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:04   Link #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie View Post
You can say that, but you do not need Hollywood to make Hollywood quality production.

South Korean movies and even some chinese films in the recent years have shown production quality in the level of blockbuster hollywood projects with a fraction of the budgets.

And then we have Japanese films with over the top stage acting.
They can, but it sure is easier with more resources though. It's a thing of scale. I mean Hollywood is able to churn out stuff of varying levels of quality and care, and thus it's easier to land on a diamond. But ultimately, that's why it's more likely we'll get stuff like Avatar.

But in any case, in our current situation where anime is largely geared to a niche audience and the medium still isn't taken seriously enough in enough places (though that will slowly changed), it makes sense that you're just not going to get that many big projects. But that is also by choice, I admit.
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:04   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie View Post
but they have made series on that level of quality before, just look at Basilisk or Serei no Moribito, from beginning to end, everything from animation to soundtrack is top notch.
Just as they have now.

And just as they have then, they are tons of shows that are bad. Or did you serious think the early 2000s and late 90s only had 5 shows in total?

Quite frankly this is the reason I'm annoyed with general Western viewers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie View Post
That being said, Animation quality isn't all that makes a good series, you have justice league or batman series in the west, compared to avatar their animation quality is quite average most of the time, what makes them good is the writing and plot.
Justice league or Batman series aren't the only cartoons the west made.

There's plenty of childish crap in the works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie View Post
Japan needs to break out of the mould and try something different. Hire some professional writers to make a good plot and character scripts. Although not a direct example, a good script makes the difference between game of the year and another disappointment in the game industry. Look at the difference between Final fantasy 13 and Mass effect series.

I just want to know what is stopping them from doing that.
You might want to use a different example- Nobody is going to award Mass Effect for story telling anymore.
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:06   Link #13
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@ OP: you have to understand that the income sources of a lot of anime was based on released mechanise/ figure rather than DVD/ Bluray selling. I means there are only few actually could selll more than 10k copy. Heck even 4-5k could have been enough for many show.


And in a world where the animator have to work even 600 hours a month. They simply won't have spare cash to throw and experiment around. Going for a safe genre, moe anime with likeable character that you can use to sell mechanise or figure, with a hope that it hits fandom spot and become success is the safest way at this moment
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:10   Link #14
deltaxxmintpie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Just as they have now.

And just as they have then, they are tons of shows that are bad. Or did you serious think the early 2000s and late 90s only had 5 shows in total?

.
You know very well my arguments weren't that narrow in scope. I am very well aware of this. What I wrote was meant to highlight the fact that, the recent trend in anime releases tend to have less and less of those Mature, well thought out anime and more and more of those Moe, fan service ones.

We have Gargantia in 2013, Attack on titan in 2013/2014, that is what? 2 out of how many hundreds of releases?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post


You might want to use a different example- Nobody is going to award Mass Effect for story telling anymore.
Bioware and Mass effect series are the prime examples of Story telling and character development done right in video games.

Unless otherwise of course, you want to argue that Final Fantasy 13 did better in that aspect.
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:17   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie View Post
You know very well my arguments weren't that narrow in scope. I am very well aware of this. What I wrote was meant to highlight the fact that, the recent trend in anime releases tend to have less and less of those Mature, well thought out anime and more and more of those Moe, fan service ones.

We have Gargantia in 2013, Attack on titan in 2013/2014, that is what? 2 out of how many hundreds of releases?
As a oppose to how many released in the total of the ten years before that?

Every time people give examples of how good the old days were, I have only ever see the same 5 titles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie View Post
Bioware and Mass effect series are the prime examples of Story telling and character development done right in video games.

Unless otherwise of course, you want to argue that Final Fantasy 13 did better in that aspect.
I would argue that certain minor flaws aside, I prefer the story telling and character developments from Persona and Tales games.

I never played an FF game.

But at the same time, video game story and TV show stories are quite different in how they need to be written.
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:18   Link #16
deltaxxmintpie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
@ OP: you have to understand that the income sources of a lot of anime was based on released mechanise/ figure rather than DVD/ Bluray selling. I means there are only few actually could selll more than 10k copy. Heck even 4-5k could have been enough for many show.


And in a world where the animator have to work even 600 hours a month. They simply won't have spare cash to throw and experiment around. Going for a safe genre, moe anime with likeable character that you can use to sell mechanise or figure, with a hope that it hits fandom spot and become success is the safest way at this moment
While I do feel that this is a very valid fact, I do also feel that the state of the industry as it is now is also by choice.

Attack on Titan I would imagine is a very successful series/franchise in both Japan and oversea. Likewise for Gundam for example.

You can sell a good merchandise while making a good anime. I think creativity is very overlooked in anime industry atm.
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:21   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie View Post
While I do feel that this is a very valid fact, I do also feel that the state of the industry as it is now is also by choice.

Attack on Titan I would imagine is a very successful series/franchise in both Japan and oversea. Likewise for Gundam for example.

You can sell a good merchandise while making a good anime. I think creativity is very overlooked in anime industry atm.
But it's a really hit and miss. Attack of The titan for example already have a massive fan bases from manga medium. They already knows it is worthy to invest in before they made the anime

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie View Post
Bioware and Mass effect series are the prime examples of Story telling and character development done right in video games.

Unless otherwise of course, you want to argue that Final Fantasy 13 did better in that aspect.
How's about Dark Soul and Persona 4 or Metal Gear? I means even Mass Effect was dull on storyline in comparing to European tittle like Witchers

I'm just saying single out FF13 (which let's be honest, the story suck) to pitch against anything else is not entirely fair comparison
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:25   Link #18
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If I remember correctly the next highest DVD/BD selling TV series in 2013 after Attack on Titan was Space Battleship Yamato 2199, which is a rare space opera anime.

Well rare now, there were lots in the 1980s.

Yamato is also supported by a large selection of Bandai model kit sales, music CDs, and a small range of female figures (since the number of females in the show went from two to twelve from the 1974 original).
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:33   Link #19
deltaxxmintpie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
As a oppose to how many released in the total of the ten years before that?



I would argue that certain minor flaws aside, I prefer the story telling and character developments from Persona and Tales games.

I never played an FF game.

But at the same time, video game story and TV show stories are quite different in how they need to be written.
I've never played Persona or Tales so I wouldn't know how the story and characters are like in those games.

The point I do want to make is, the development of characters and scripts in Final fantasy games and most JRPG (and animes) in general tend to have this over the top, very clichéd personalities, very rarely they break out of the mould.

In general JRPGs feel like they cater towards a younger audience, they rarely feel sophisticated enough for non-jrpg fans to take seriously.

Don't think that I'm a typical westerner with a prejudice towards Japanese games, I did grow up with jrpgs (suikoden 2, breath of fire 4 etc) but the trends do change. In the age of voice acting and better visual mediums, you have to incorporate a good coherent plot and character development in game and make your game stand out.

The difference between most jrpg and western rpg are the fact that, JRPG may be a bit too simplistic and childish to audiences outside of dedicated JRPG fans (who are very few in current game industry).

Western games like mass effect on the other hand, both the younger and older gamers can enjoy the story plot and relate to the characters.

There is a reason why JRPGs have taken a steep decline outside of Japan, there is also a reason why Souls series are successful in the west.

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post

How's about Dark Soul and Persona 4 or Metal Gear? I means even Mass Effect was dull on storyline in comparing to European tittle like Witchers

I'm just saying single out FF13 (which let's be honest, the story suck) to pitch against anything else is not entirely fair comparison
I actually was writing a post that reference to souls series.

You do however cannot call Souls series or Metal gear JRPG. They are made in Japan but they are not JRPG.

JRPGs have a strong elements of the Jpop culture. Souls and Metal gear are western inspired.

They have mature, coherent, sophisticated plot and characters. They are psychological and deep. They are examples of catering to the western audience done right. Resident Evil later series are an example of westernisation gone wrong.

Could you name one distinctively "JRPG" JRPG that sells very well in the west? (Don't say final fantasy, at this rate final fantasy will be dead in the west in the next 3-4 years).
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Old 2014-06-10, 21:45   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaxxmintpie View Post
I actually was writing a post that reference to souls series (read above).

You do however cannot call Souls series or Metal gear as JRPG. They are made in Japan but they are not JRPG.

JRPGs have a strong elements of the Jpop culture. Souls and Metal gear are western inspired.

They have mature, coherent, sophisticated plot and characters. They are psychological and deep. They are examples of catering to the western audience done right. Resident Evil later series are an example of westernisation gone wrong.
Well Jrpg is actually a genre in itself, and not exactly was limited to location or western inspiration (watch this if you want to know more).

Basically they are only different in their method of presenting character or storyline. Biomass or Dragon Age for example could arguably be a JRPG. While Dark Soul is not. Witches are definitely JRPG through


I think from Japan, Valkyrie and Persona, and the Tales series actually is fairly successful, but can't tell the figure myself
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