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Old 2014-06-11, 16:59   Link #1
Joyce_Steele
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Why do some good anime failed to get attention it should deserves?

The last time I checked Taishou Yakyuu Musume's page in Myanimelist, it only got about 3500+ MAL users actually have it in their lists. I know I should talk this in MAL forums instead but I already abandoned that place long time ago. 3500 sounds many but think again. in MAL three thousand is few when an average ecchi and yaoi shows got at least 7-8 thousand viewers. I know I should use MAL as "standard candle" but at least it is more popular than Anime-Source and more organized than Anime-Planet for examples.

There are too many theories I can think of but it come out in the same season where Bakemonogatari was premiered, which already have huge fanbase before it was shown. Maybe there are too few fanservice like bouncy breasts and pantyshots for guys to be entertain despite having "seinen" for genre. It also lack of gorgeous bishies and steamy romances to attract female viewers either.

While TYM may not really a best anime ever made as it is a very subjective matter but TYM is a good anime that were ignored by anime viewers themselves. I probably love to discuss about Yosuga no Sora too but that could raises some controversies.

I hate to look at the other end of this situation but I do hate to see some shitty shows like High School of the Dead and Free! got too many credits and attention than it should deserves. As for HSotD, its zombie apocalypse genre is enough to attract people to it and the sexy girls are bonus. As for Free!, having sexy boys doing sexy things is enough to print money. Both succeed because both come at the right time and aimed towards right audiences. TYM and perhaps Aoi Hana and Yosuga no Sora probably come out at the wrong time and aimed towards wrong audiences despite how good they are.
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Old 2014-06-11, 17:41   Link #2
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Why do some good anime don't get the attention they deserve?

Because of everything.

Timing. When Taisho Baseball Girls debuted, K-On! was still go-to SoL in people's eyes and the former was prolly seen as K-On! with baseball. Ouch.

Advertising and promotion. Puella Magi Madoka Magica had Shinbo, being an IP, and the designs of Ume Aoki to tout around. Victory.

Taste, luck; that prolly explains itself.

If we knew, it'd be as easy Googling.
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Old 2014-06-11, 18:47   Link #3
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This is just another way to word a similar question: "Why does anime have all these cliche ecchi harem stuff?" Because it sells. So your "good anime" doesn't have the attention it deserves because many people don't want to watch it.

Basically, it's 90% taste and your taste is in the minority. Some people use this fact to make themselves feel more important. I hope you don't go down that route.
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Old 2014-06-11, 19:31   Link #4
Marcus H.
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There are many factors, really. iSuckAtWriting already mentioned how shows that air at the same season can affect the sales of others—like how Madoka Magica or Bakemonogatari's first season, as well as Love Live's two seasons sucked away the sales figures from its co-season shows like a sponge.

Another thing to consider is fan comparison, which may coincide with the fads of that particular time period. We all know that Princess Tutu "revolutionized" the dark magical girl theme, but it was Puella Magi Madoka Magica that sparked the interest of anime fans into dark magical girl anime in recent times. Of course, it wouldn't be farfetched to expect other projects to bank on the success of dark magical girls; however, it's inevitably gonna be a hit (e.g. WIXOSS) or miss (e.g. Gen'ei wo Kakeru Taiyou) situation like always. The said can be told of K-ON!and basically every school club-based anime (from Yama no Susume to C3-Bu and the upcoming Sabagebu, and even Sora no Woto!).

But does that really matter?
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Old 2014-06-11, 19:46   Link #5
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I think that being a period piece probably hurt Taishou Yakyuu Musume's reception. I have found that period pieces don't do that well with anime fans unless they're really stand-out in one way or another.


And like iSuckAtWring wrote, this specific anime was definitely a victim of timing.

K-On! is a lot of it. Some people who didn't like K-On! may have avoided Taishou Yakyuu Musume thinking it was, as iSAW wrote, "K-On! with baseball".

But beyond that, I think it was just trumped, at least popularity-wise, from just about every angle you could look at it from...

Do you want "cute girls doing cute things"? Well, there's K-On and Saki.

Do you want sports, or baseball specifically? Well, Cross Game also came out that year. And, again, Saki.

Are you hoping for shoujo-ai? Well, Mari-Mite was still airing.

Do you want SoL? Kimi ni Todoke was airing.


It really helps an anime to be perceived as currently the best at something.
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Old 2014-06-11, 20:39   Link #6
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Let's get intellectual and quote Anne Karenin....

Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

(More seriously, a successful anime need to pull many things together. Good plot. Chara design. Slot. Funding. Music. Actors. Hype. Moe. ONE thing off can ruin an anime.)
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Old 2014-06-11, 21:32   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyce_Steele View Post
TYM and perhaps Aoi Hana and Yosuga no Sora probably come out at the wrong time and aimed towards wrong audiences despite how good they are.
I can't speak for TYM, but I agree with iSuckAtWriting that K-On! overshadowed a lot of similar titles. That doesn't mean TYM was a failure or that it was more deserving, however.

Aoi Hana was a solid yuri story, but yuri just isn't that popular as a genre. Between yaoi and yuri, yaoi is way more popular, or at the very least it has a more vocal community.

Yosuga no Sora was very polarizing due to its subject matter (in both graphic display and taboo), and honestly if it wasn't for how boldly it went down that path it would have been fairly mediocre overall.

While it's true that sometimes a show is popular for reasons you can't personally fathom, it's also good to recognize that there are shows you like that others can't see the appeal of. Of course some shows are popular for obvious reasons (HoTD = zombie violence and sex appeal), but some shows are popular simply for being in the right place at the right time, or for daring to go in a direction opposite of what an otherwise saturated genre has been trending.

Taste, as they say, is subjective. Personally I'm just thankful that things that I like, even when they aren't popular, still get made. I don't care if "the masses" deem it worthy (or unworthy). All I care about is if I find it interesting enough to experience. ^^

Of course, it's always great to share and talk about what you love with other fans as well, but when you start putting too much seriousness into thinking one show is more deserving than another because of personal taste, you end up just feeling negative about more than just a story, but the people who enjoy them.
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Old 2014-06-11, 21:49   Link #8
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Because success is mostly about being in the right place and the right time. Content of the story only contributes some success but not as much as the former. It's also relevant that you know what kind of audience you are marketing to as well.
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Old 2014-06-12, 02:28   Link #9
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I recall Taisho Yakyuu Musume being one of 2ch's most talked about shows of summer 2009 (at least for the first month of the season), but that didn't seem to translate into either disc sales or western popularity.

I've generally thought of TYM as a "sports anime for moe fans", not least because all the westerners I know who watched it back when it aired were moe fans. Experienced ones too… not the people who had just seen KyoAni's stuff and nothing else.

Some observations:
-I like TYM's cast (and Yuki in particular), but I don't think it's characters were as memorable as K-On and Saki - which started airing three months earlier, and the latter of which was still airing. Attachment to cast is the kind of incentive fanboys need to start dropping $$$ on blurays, so that may have been a big factor.
-As for the show's profile in the west: I don't feel the western fandom had a very developed moe fandom in 2009 outside of KyoAni titles, and unfortunately the concept doesn't have the… "impact" of say "zombies v. high school girls". I personally don't feel it ever stood a chance here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
This is just another way to word a similar question: "Why does anime have all these cliche ecchi harem stuff?" Because it sells. So your "good anime" doesn't have the attention it deserves because many people don't want to watch it.

Basically, it's 90% taste and your taste is in the minority. Some people use this fact to make themselves feel more important. I hope you don't go down that route.
I think there are better ways to deal with posts like this than trying to shut the discussion down. That, and I don't think it's that simple. For example, from what I've seen there are seasons where the top seller show of the season will outsell that season's ecchi titles combined. But I also observe sales in the ecchi genre tend to be more evenly distributed than in other genres, which means that for producers that aren't in a good to produce that "big hit", it's often a good bet - less chance of the show flopping than with other genres.

Of course the OP is also guilty of oversimplification: saying that the show didn't sell because it lacked bouncy breasts and panty shots kind of implies that it would have sold well if it had those, and I don't think it would have. That's not what the target audience was looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think that being a period piece probably hurt Taishou Yakyuu Musume's reception. I have found that period pieces don't do that well with anime fans unless they're really stand-out in one way or another.
TYM was not only unusual in being a moe period show, but in being a moe sports anime. I think that may be in part that your typical moe show cast tends to skew somewhat feminine… it's easier to imagine them forming a mahjong team than a baseball team (note Little Buster's has a far stronger male cast than just about anything else in the genre).

TYM's way of getting around this is tightly linked with it's period setting: the original point of the team is to prove a point to the fiancee of one of the girls. The team doesn't get dominated by sporty types because there simply aren't that many of them, and so on.

Flip side of this is what I think may have been the show's biggest non-timing related weakness - far more so than the setting or sports theme: the cast is relatively refined and ladylike compared to conventional moe characters. You get interesting characters, but they can come across as kind of subdued compared to the cast of something like K-On or Saki. As much as I like Souya Yuki (Noto Mamiko's character, whose mannerisms made me think of a junior version of Matsuri), she doesn't stand out and generate memes the way Yui, Mio or Azusa do.
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Old 2014-06-12, 07:30   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
-As for the show's profile in the west: I don't feel the western fandom had a very developed moe fandom in 2009 outside of KyoAni titles, and unfortunately the concept doesn't have the… "impact" of say "zombies v. high school girls". I personally don't feel it ever stood a chance here.
You could be right. I think that, in recent years, P.A. Works and idol shows have really helped to broaden the horizon for the western fandom when it comes to moe. But that impact was not felt back in 2009.


Quote:
I think there are better ways to deal with posts like this than trying to shut the discussion down. That, and I don't think it's that simple. For example, from what I've seen there are seasons where the top seller show of the season will outsell that season's ecchi titles combined.
I agree. Ecchi is generally pretty good at "hitting for average", but they're not notably strong at having "homerun leaders", if people get my analogy there. I'd argue that moe in general is much better at producing "homerun leaders" (i.e. top selling shows) than ecchi is. A lot of moe shows are not ecchi (K-On itself is a good example of this, especially its 2nd season and movie).


Quote:
Of course the OP is also guilty of oversimplification: saying that the show didn't sell because it lacked bouncy breasts and panty shots kind of implies that it would have sold well if it had those, and I don't think it would have. That's not what the target audience was looking for.
I agree. It is possible to appeal to both ecchi fans and moe fans, but the two groups of fans are not exactly one and the same. There are some who like ecchi but not moe, and some who like moe but not ecchi. Each has fans independent of the other.

Tamayura has no ecchi whatsoever, and it still sold reasonably well and was popular with moe fans.


Quote:
Flip side of this is what I think may have been the show's biggest non-timing related weakness - far more so than the setting or sports theme: the cast is relatively refined and ladylike compared to conventional moe characters. You get interesting characters, but they can come across as kind of subdued compared to the cast of something like K-On or Saki.
Well, much the same could be said of Mari-Mite, and it sold fairly well.

I don't think that period pieces are necessarily doomed, but I think they might have a bit of a bigger hurdle to leap in order to be commercially successful.
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Old 2014-06-12, 08:03   Link #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyce_Steele View Post
The last time I checked Taishou Yakyuu Musume's page in Myanimelist, it only got about 3500+ MAL users actually have it in their lists. I know I should talk this in MAL forums instead but I already abandoned that place long time ago. 3500 sounds many but think again. in MAL three thousand is few when an average ecchi and yaoi shows got at least 7-8 thousand viewers. I know I should use MAL as "standard candle" but at least it is more popular than Anime-Source and more organized than Anime-Planet for examples.

There are too many theories I can think of but it come out in the same season where Bakemonogatari was premiered, which already have huge fanbase before it was shown. Maybe there are too few fanservice like bouncy breasts and pantyshots for guys to be entertain despite having "seinen" for genre. It also lack of gorgeous bishies and steamy romances to attract female viewers either.

While TYM may not really a best anime ever made as it is a very subjective matter but TYM is a good anime that were ignored by anime viewers themselves. I probably love to discuss about Yosuga no Sora too but that could raises some controversies.

I hate to look at the other end of this situation but I do hate to see some shitty shows like High School of the Dead and Free! got too many credits and attention than it should deserves. As for HSotD, its zombie apocalypse genre is enough to attract people to it and the sexy girls are bonus. As for Free!, having sexy boys doing sexy things is enough to print money. Both succeed because both come at the right time and aimed towards right audiences. TYM and perhaps Aoi Hana and Yosuga no Sora probably come out at the wrong time and aimed towards wrong audiences despite how good they are.
Problem with TYM is about sport and that's quite minor genre on it's own, especialy if it doesn't have already existing fan base. Aoi Hana is fairly know show, but again shojo ai animes rarely get that much atention outside of their target audience.

For Yosuga no Sora, it has misrable writing, I don't have problem with erotic (I liked some scenes), but YnS doesn't have anything else. It is just different kind of pandering, not that different from for example above mentioned Free, which is probably why some people likes it.

Another reasons why some show doesn't get enough attention is weak start (DenYuuDen), low budgets (Wagaya no Oinarisama) which makes lot of people drop it without giving it chance or even lack atention from scanlation groups which make it difficult to access (Tokyo Majin).
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Old 2014-06-12, 08:12   Link #12
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I would say here too that success ''in Japan'' and succes ''in Japan and elsewhere'' are too very different things

I will take an American example to present my point. A Woody Allen movie, while good, might not make a lot of sense for non-American people, especially ones not really familiar with New-York. On the other hand, as sad as it is, everyone in the world will understand a movie about giant transforming robots hitting each other as well as dino-robots.

IE, otherwise, widly popular anime like ''Attack on Titan'' are ''universal'' enough to be liked by a crowd outside the people very familiar with Japan.
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Old 2014-06-12, 08:22   Link #13
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Hence why shows like this are called "hidden gems", these are good solid shows that were generally overlooked by most viewers.
I remember watching this show every week when it aired and found it to be one of my favorite ones to watch, so not everyone missed it, some of us got it.
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Old 2014-06-12, 08:33   Link #14
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Another thing to consider, in addition to all the good explanations that have already been stated, is that every season spawns something like 40-50 anime and generally the public only picks 3-4 or even less else they'd be watching anime the whole week and do little else.

So an anime somehow needs to "sell" itself before people can even get a chance to appreciate them. They say that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover and it's true but when you buy a book there isn't much you can base your decision upon apart from the cover, the synopsis or the name of the author written as big as the cover can allow.

Anime aren't much different which is why many of them are adaption of works that already have a fanbase.
Moe characters might not by themselves make the quality of an anime better but they do work as a selling factor for people that don't even know what the anime is about.

Likewise an ugly character design can be a turn off, and I've seen many times people commenting that they hesitate to watch anime "x" or read manga "x" because they don't like
the art.

That being said moe characters have become so much widespread that I don't think they work anymore. There are probably 20+ moe anime per season now so it is inevitable that they'll get overshadowed by competitors.

The next thing that can catch someone's interest is the theme of the anime itself.
I believe that the reason the aforementioned High School of the Dead somehow managed to gain prominence (in spite of its mediocre storytelling) has more to do with the fact that it's basically the only anime about a zombie apocalypse scenario than its exaggerated fan service. (I might be wrong but as far as I know there isn't really any other anime of that kind, zombies exist in many other works but they are not the main focus or the story isn't purely about them)
Horror anime are rare in general so High School of the dead had practically very little competition.

Some genres then are more sought than the rest. Sport anime aren't exactly very popular, they were in the past but the interest has somehow waned in the most recent years.
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Old 2014-06-12, 09:34   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't think that period pieces are necessarily doomed, but I think they might have a bit of a bigger hurdle to leap in order to be commercially successful.
Being a period piece didn't stop it being the third most discussed new show on 2ch for summer 2009. As interesting a counterargument as Marimite is, I tend to favour the subdued cast as a reason why the show's 2ch popularity failed to translated to sales because it's one of the few factors I'd expect to result in a significant difference between 2ch popularity and sales - the other being the proximity to K-On and Saki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The next thing that can catch someone's interest is the theme of the anime itself.
I believe that the reason the aforementioned High School of the Dead somehow managed to gain prominence (in spite of its mediocre storytelling) has more to do with the fact that it's basically the only anime about a zombie apocalypse scenario than its exaggerated fan service. (I might be wrong but as far as I know there isn't really any other anime of that kind, zombies exist in many other works but they are not the main focus or the story isn't purely about them)
Horror anime are rare in general so High School of the dead had practically very little competition.
Interesting point - most of the HSotD fans I know are zombie nuts and quite a few would probably describe themselves as mildly ecchi adverse.
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Old 2014-06-12, 10:08   Link #16
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Golden rule of being an anime fan long-term and not getting bitter/vengeful about the fandom:

Don't give a damn about how popular/attention-grabbing a title is.

Sometimes the best titles are very underappreciated. Sometimes hype and spotlight is a death sentence.

It's nice to be able to discuss titles with others where possible. But...I don't need others to justify what I like. There is a perception that one has to be able to converse with others to like/enjoy a title more. Not true.
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Old 2014-06-12, 10:53   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Do you have any evidence that being talked about a lot on 2ch tends to lead to a lot of sales? I vaguely recall hearing such an idea hinted at before, but I don't recall ever seeing solid evidence of this, so it would be nice to see that.

In any event, it's possible that the "why" behind the discussion may well be as important as the level of discussion itself. I don't know for certain, but Kokoro Connect and Aku no Hana were likely talked about a lot as well based on the controversies connected to them, but they never sold that well.


Quote:
As interesting a counterargument as Marimite is, I tend to favour the subdued cast as a reason why the show's 2ch popularity failed to translated to sales...
Well, because of Mari-Mite, I'm a bit skeptical of your theory here. One could arguably counter with Rozen Maiden as well, given what many of the dolls are like ("Desu" was admittedly quite the meme generator in the west, but I'm not sure if that meme made her popular in Japan, given the J-SaiMoe controversy arising from her winning one year).

On the flip-side, I know some period piece anime shows that didn't sell well. Ikoku Meiro no Croisée and Dantalian no Shoka are two that come to mind for me, that we could add to TYM. I'm also inclined to think that this place/time setting difference could have played a role in the big sales difference between Durarara!! and Baccano! (two anime shows that are pretty similar in other ways).

I can't think of a lot of period piece anime shows, so we unfortunately might not have a "large sample size" to work with here. But what I can think of is suggestive to me. I also find the dominance of "modern", "Japan", and "high school" in anime settings to be suggestive.

The big exception to all of the above would admittedly be Jojo's, which is why I wrote "I have found that period pieces don't do that well with anime fans unless they're really stand-out in one way or another."
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Old 2014-06-12, 11:40   Link #18
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What defines 'good anime' anyway? I know several western reviewer sucks so much because they failed at reviewing stuff. I ended up watching 'objectively bad shows', and avoiding 'arguably better' shows. Maybe because I'm no westerner so I have different mind map? God knows.

But I'm pragmatic, I see what I can see, I hear what could I hear. I don't believe in 'hurr... don't have soul', 'hurr... no personality', ect. Seriously, I'm tired! So, when you say a certain show is good, let me ask 'What part of it was good?' show me facts, data, screencaps, something which won't be twisted by human's sharp tongue! And vice versa, when you say Free! was bad (or don't deserve attention they got) tell me what is the problem with actual facts and data (or maybe statistic if you could dive that deep). Not some gibberish which will only amount to laughable sophism. Or just be honest, like 'I don't like maleservice in my show' and we can call it a day (a taste opinion. And that's fine).

There is nothing wrong with having peculiar taste. Just don't bash or whine whenever people like shows you don't like or people dislike/unfavored shows you like. That is as stupid as to whine 'why your friends like two shots espresso and you alone dislike it'.
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Old 2014-06-12, 12:05   Link #19
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Why do some good anime fail?

I'd guess it all depends on three factors:

Marketing

Popularity

Ratings/Sales (ok, that's four. OOP)



Yeah it sucks when anime you might enjoy doesn't get the popularity you think it deserves...been there done that...but that's the way things are. *shrugs*

Otherwise this sounds like it might rail into 'EVERYONE SHOULD LIKE WHAT I I LIKE', which I seriously hope isn't your intention.
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Old 2014-06-12, 12:56   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Do you have any evidence that being talked about a lot on 2ch tends to lead to a lot of sales? I vaguely recall hearing such an idea hinted at before, but I don't recall ever seeing solid evidence of this, so it would be nice to see that.
There's probably a correlation between sales and discussion but it's not causation.
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