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Old 2014-06-18, 11:49   Link #21
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Ever since Kaguya took over Madara's role as big bad, I've been enjoying Bleach more than Naruto.

That should be all I have to say about how bad these "twists" have gotten.
ah, I just realized I agree... that's horrible

this chapter wasn't good, but it did answer a lot of questions at least. my biggest question now would be why madara believed in and trusted black zetsu. and i dont think we will get an answer to that one. he was so smart in everything, but he was willing to stake his life and future on some insanely shady and mysterious ninja who was alive before him?
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Old 2014-06-18, 11:59   Link #22
milan kyuubi
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
ah, I just realized I agree... that's horrible

this chapter wasn't good, but it did answer a lot of questions at least. my biggest question now would be why madara believed in and trusted black zetsu. and i dont think we will get an answer to that one. he was so smart in everything, but he was willing to stake his life and future on some insanely shady and mysterious ninja who was alive before him?
Madara did not know BZ existed long before he did. He thought the BZ was his own will!
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Old 2014-06-18, 12:04   Link #23
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Madara did not know BZ existed long before he did. He thought the BZ was his own will!
that's exactly my point. why in the world would he think that?
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Old 2014-06-18, 12:06   Link #24
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I'd assume when he made the Mado Geso or whatever it's called appear, and he made the White Zetsus, the Black one popped out and just proclaimed it. Or timed it with something he was doing so it appeared as such.
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Old 2014-06-18, 12:21   Link #25
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Well, at least some questions were answered in this chapter (for example how Madara survived), though there are still some new ones.
For example: Why did he posess two healthy eyes, when he used Izanagi (or was it Izanami?) to come back to life? Shouldn't the technique permanently destroy the eye used to perform it.
And if Kaguya and the God Tree/10-Tails were one beeing from the start, who wants his/her chakra back… well, why did she 'create' sons with Chakra in the first place?

But I liked the reference to Jiraiya, when Naruto said, that Zetsu wasn't the only one writing Ninja history.
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Old 2014-06-18, 12:24   Link #26
itachi-san314
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I'd assume when he made the Mado Geso or whatever it's called appear, and he made the White Zetsus, the Black one popped out and just proclaimed it. Or timed it with something he was doing so it appeared as such.
yea i guess. it's pretty fishy for someone supposedly as smart and suspicious as madara was. why would he trust anyone that came out of the gedo mazo?

"Oh..I'm.. your will.. that's right. I'm your will! ... believe me? please?"

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Why did he posess two healthy eyes, when he used Izanagi (or was it Izanami?) to come back to life? Shouldn't the technique permanently destroy the eye used to perform it.
he only had one eye when he met obito. this explains why

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And if Kaguya and the God Tree/10-Tails were one beeing from the start, who wants his/her chakra back… well, why did she 'create' sons with Chakra in the first place?
i guess she thought they'd be obedient
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Old 2014-06-18, 12:55   Link #27
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Naruto is turning into a bad Scooby Doo cartoon. Every time they think they find the true villain, it is some other dude in a mask pulling the strings.

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that's exactly my point. why in the world would he think that?
Because he also was extremely arrogant with total confidence in his abilities. Characters like that always make mistakes. Of course he would be gullible enough to think that Black Zetsu was his own will. Kishi couldn't figure out how to defeat Madara so he did it by hubris. He was so arrogant that he couldn't see he was being played like a pawn from the start by something much older and more powerful. Given the Uchiha have always been pawns in Black Zetsu's game, it makes sense.
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Old 2014-06-18, 13:09   Link #28
itachi-san314
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Because he also was extremely arrogant with total confidence in his abilities. Characters like that always make mistakes. Of course he would be gullible enough to think that Black Zetsu was his own will. Kishi couldn't figure out how to defeat Madara so he did it by hubris. He was so arrogant that he couldn't see he was being played like a pawn from the start by something much older and more powerful. Given the Uchiha have always been pawns in Black Zetsu's game, it makes sense.
he was certainly arrogant, but he also had some serious trust issues. i get what you're saying and i think that's kishi's motive in writing this, but it doesn't quite work for me

also, if the uchiha were so integral to black zetsu's plot, then why didn't he stop the massacre? he actually let his "pawns" go through it. sure, he knew he'd still have itachi and obito to yank around (and possibly sasuke) but it's putting all his eggs in one basket. if those 3 went down, he'd have no future generation uchihas to gain rinnegan power and carry out his plan
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Old 2014-06-18, 13:44   Link #29
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also, if the uchiha were so integral to black zetsu's plot, then why didn't he stop the massacre? he actually let his "pawns" go through it. sure, he knew he'd still have itachi and obito to yank around (and possibly sasuke) but it's putting all his eggs in one basket. if those 3 went down, he'd have no future generation uchihas to gain rinnegan power and carry out his plan
Unless he knew early on of Sasuke's transmigration status. Remember, that is a key and important element required in resurrecting Kaguya. Apparently, only a transmigrant Uchiha could unlock the Rinnegan. With Madara's eyes still floating around, all he needed then was to give anyone a push and the eyes.
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Old 2014-06-18, 13:52   Link #30
the one above all
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Unless he knew early on of Sasuke's transmigration status. Remember, that is a key and important element required in resurrecting Kaguya. Apparently, only a transmigrant Uchiha could unlock the Rinnegan. With Madara's eyes still floating around, all he needed then was to give anyone a push and the eyes.
It was still pretty risky to sacrifice the entire clan on the off chance that Sasuke might be the transmigration and that Sasuke would survive to that point. If Sauke or any other of the remaining Uchihas died after the massacre then Black Zetsu would have been screwed. At least with the clan still around he has the future generations that he could use as back ups.

I guess since Zetsu is supposed to be the Aizen of this series he probably planned every thing down to the last detail and knew it would all work out after all.
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Old 2014-06-18, 14:04   Link #31
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It's a retcon. Don't worry about it that much. It's not the first, and I'm sure it's not the last. It's like Danzou stating he'd do whatever it took to protect the leaf, yet he didn't appear when Orochimaru and the Sand nearly obliterated the leaf because he hadn't been created yet. This is basically the same thing.
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Old 2014-06-18, 14:09   Link #32
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I liked the explanation of Madara's survival. Using Izanagi is such a way was an inspired move. I also like the explanation of the white zetsus, though the whole black Zetsu thing fells a little to contrived.
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Old 2014-06-18, 14:36   Link #33
dniv
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I started out the chapter seeing that retcon with the powers... I was like oh great... And then I tried to make myself be open-minded when reading the rest of it, and it was awesome for once.

I really liked this chapter. We had a ton of reveals here. Also, the way Madara saved himself was indeed foreshadowed by what Itachi had done earlier, so that was well-planned... and lol eww to him making his eye from the "meat" from the first Hokage.

We finally saw the big bad, and the bigger bad behind everything, and many more things now actually make sense. I'm also happy that Orochimaru wasn't just a pawn, but only Kabuto was. That makes things better; I'll definitely say that.

The one thing I disliked which wasn't really that bad (since this is Shonen I guess...) was that it had to be the evil guy who changed the stone statue about what the Uchiha should seek... it made it a little bit too black/white morality for my tastes, but I still appreciate it for what it has accomplished in other places.

That fact I just mentioned which I didn't particularly like definitely sets up a situation where Naruto/Sasuke make up. Also, I think that while the execution of this idea definitely suffered in style and timing recently... it's not a bad one.

It's interesting that the "sage" actually doesn't know what he's talking about, and the simple destiny story actually has a twist that seems to have been planned long before this point.

I also liked the fact that the big bad planned her resurrection kind of herself with help, since that actually makes more sense if you think about it. After all, we were left thinking before about exactly how the world was like before the Juubi was sealed and there was no Ninjuutsu. If there was just basically one god and other things, it makes much more sense.

I actually really enjoyed this chapter overall because it felt refreshingly well-done compared to the unforeshadowed events that have been popping up quite a lot lately. I hate it when there is just fighting and no talking, and this time the talking was actually really good/interesting.

This chapter actually made me feel much better about where this series is right now, and I'll probably end up at least partially liking the ending, especially with more chapters like this. (The anime non-canon arc around this was also very good.)

I do think the execution could have been much better, but the ideas involved are definitely very interesting, and I like them, and they're better than I had thought when I had recently lost some faith in this series.

I hope this trend continues.

P.S.

Oh yeah, I completely forgot Naruto's weird behavior at the end of the chapter there and I saw the next chapter title... I'm leaning two ways with this: if it focuses on the move I probably won't like it, but if it reveals something else that Naruto just realized, then I will probably love it, so I'm excited for next week. I'm interested in what exactly his last sentence meant, that was probably the best cliffhanger at the ending of a chapter that I've seen in anything for at least a few weeks...
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Old 2014-06-18, 14:44   Link #34
itachi-san314
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Unless he knew early on of Sasuke's transmigration status. Remember, that is a key and important element required in resurrecting Kaguya. Apparently, only a transmigrant Uchiha could unlock the Rinnegan. With Madara's eyes still floating around, all he needed then was to give anyone a push and the eyes.
even if he was 100% positive sasuke was indra's reincarnation, that is still too risky. there had been several reincarnations (madara being the most promising) meaning that if sasuke died/failed and madara couldn't be resurrected, there was still hope for future reincarnations generations from now. without the clan, sasuke, a resurrected madara and obito were his last hopes

we know black zetsu is extremely patient, so it makes no sense that he would let his future hopes be destroyed
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Old 2014-06-18, 14:48   Link #35
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All this background exposition is pointless, when is the series going to go into space!?
I'm hella mad!



Lol @ this chapter.
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Old 2014-06-18, 14:52   Link #36
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At first i was like what fack is going on?! Then i read a different translation. Its still unclear who came first, kaguya or the tree but we know Kaguya was stingy as fack with chakra. Its possible she didnt intend for her sons to have chakra or maybe she didnt like haggy and hammy giving it away like candy. My guess is she created the original IT (after taking control of the tree) to make slaves of the humans who now have chakra. The sons disagreed and they all fought. She likely absorbed the tree somewhere along the way which made her the juubi which was then ultimately sealed by the boys.

Kinda spooky how we are now told that the original white zetsus seen in the manga were (corpses) of human victims of the first IT.

Also did black zetsu likely revealed madara elderly corpse to kabuto but still not sure how he was resurrected in his prime...

Ps. Kishi whats up with that suspicious ass cave opening we see behind naruto and sasuke

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
also, if the uchiha were so integral to black zetsu's plot, then why didn't he stop the massacre? he actually let his "pawns" go through it. sure, he knew he'd still have itachi and obito to yank around (and possibly sasuke) but it's putting all his eggs in one basket. if those 3 went down, he'd have no future generation uchihas to gain rinnegan power and carry out his plan
I would guess because madara had the plan like 70% complete by then. And with black zetsus ability to posses te carrier of the rinnegan ie obito and force him to revive madara, it didn't seem likely that the plan would fail....and of course it didn't.

If all else failed the Indras chakra which apparently never dissipates would have just ended up in some random child who likely would have had the ability to awaken the sharingan
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Old 2014-06-18, 15:08   Link #37
itachi-san314
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Also did black zetsu likely revealed madara elderly corpse to kabuto but still not sure how he was resurrected in his prime...
it was kabuto's advanced technique that allowed for it (plotkai)

Quote:
Ps. Kishi whats up with that suspicious ass cave opening we see behind naruto and sasuke
it's a teleportation gateway technique of kaguya (like a bleach hollow gateway opening)

Quote:
I would guess because madara had the plan like 70% complete by then. And with black zetsus ability to posses te carrier of the rinnegan ie obito and force him to revive madara, it didn't seem likely that the plan would fail....and of course it didn't
my point is that for someone so carfeul and patient, he haphazardly allowed people he was controlling to destroy his future chances and put all his eggs in one basket
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Old 2014-06-18, 15:31   Link #38
Artimus_Prime
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it was kabuto's advanced technique that allowed for it (plotkai)

it's a teleportation gateway technique of kaguya (like a bleach hollow gateway opening)

my point is that for someone so carfeul and patient, he haphazardly allowed people he was controlling to destroy his future chances and put all his eggs in one basket
I see an actual cave opening. When kaguya is holdin their faces. There is a cave there. I kept looking like oh shit we are about to see a dragon lol

Zetsu makes it known that he tried throughout history to persuade both sides of the lineage. He used the uchiha to cast the story but they weren't absolutely necessary to the plan as I understand it
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Old 2014-06-18, 15:37   Link #39
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Soo what happened to the Sage's brother as I was under the imprestion that black Zetsu was the brother? Or is Black Zetsu the third lost brother that they never knew they had?
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Old 2014-06-18, 16:02   Link #40
itachi-san314
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Zetsu makes it known that he tried throughout history to persuade both sides of the lineage. He used the uchiha to cast the story but they weren't absolutely necessary to the plan as I understand it
he needs the uchiha specifically to awaken the rinnegan. that's the start of the 'resurrecting kaguya plan'

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Soo what happened to the Sage's brother as I was under the imprestion that black Zetsu was the brother? Or is Black Zetsu the third lost brother that they never knew they had?
i think he's the third long lost brother who was never really a person to begin with, just some sort of chakra blob. could be wrong on that
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