AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2014-08-16, 01:05   Link #1
LightDragonman
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Frames per Second (fps) in Anime

So yeah, a rather weird topic, but this is something I've noticed detractors like this guy bring up when they say why Anime is an inferior animation style:

"Films like "Akira" are the reason why I can't stand anime. Here's a film that's 24 fps, doesn't rely on lip flap or key frame short cuts, and is devoid of the stupid manga cliches like the mouth that somehow goes under the chin, and no one decided to follow its lead. "Akira" proves that the Japanese really aren't inept when they actually try, and its total lack of influence shows just how little the Japanese actually do care about good animation.

And don't give me any "but what about Studio Ghibli?" crap. Their films run at 12 fps, they mostly ignore the fundamentals of squash and stretch, and not even the "almighty" Hayao Miyazaki can be bothered to sync dialog to the mouth movements of his characters." (this guy also watched Evangelion, AOT, and FLCL)

This is something that a lot of haters tend to point out. Anime is a bit more choppy in terms of fluidity.

So what I want to know is, what anime do you know of that don't suffer from this? And also, does it bother you or not?
LightDragonman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-08-16, 01:45   Link #2
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
I know Akira is smoother but I doubt it's 24fps the whole time.

As for your questions, what anime isn't choppy? Hakujaden I guess?


The choppyness is what defines anime style , it doesn't "suffer" at all from it, so of course it doesn't bother me. And anyone who criticizes that aspect is as foolish as someone looking at an impressionist painting saying it can't be as good as a realist painting because it lacks detail.

edit:
See this video where the CG studio sanzigen intentionally limited the number frames to make things choppier in Black Rock Shooter action scenes when they could have easily chosen to be smoother
__________________

Last edited by totoum; 2014-08-16 at 02:11.
totoum is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-08-16, 03:17   Link #3
Esclair
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightDragonman View Post

And don't give me any "but what about Studio Ghibli?" crap. Their films run at 12 fps, they mostly ignore the fundamentals of squash and stretch, and not even the "almighty" Hayao Miyazaki can be bothered to sync dialog to the mouth movements of his characters." (this guy also watched Evangelion, AOT, and FLCL)
I do not like strict adherence to the 12 basic fundamentals of animation. They were created for a specific type of 'feel', which works fine in the films that are made with that aspect in mind, but breaking those rules allows animation to obtain a different sensibility. Jarring animation is just as valid as smooth animation. In fact, many types of scenes only work well when the animation is jarring, and completely lose their impact if animated in a traditional manner.

One thing that smooth animation cannot portray very well is extreme speed. In reality, your eye cannot track rapid movement above a certain speed, and the images that our brain processes do indeed feel jarring. When you use smooth animation with strict adherence to squash/stretch, there's no way you can imitate that kind of motion because the eye will be able to track it on the screen. Whereas jarring animation can imitate that sense of speed and power.
Esclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-08-16, 06:53   Link #4
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Ah, the 24 frames per second argument again.

Seriously, who does that except Disney for their feature movies? Not even Disney itself for its TV programs does. And since Disney switched to 3D graphic with Frozen, I wonder if this flaunted western animation superiority based on a pure matter of numbers will even be seen in the future.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-08-16, 07:46   Link #5
hyl
sneaking like a cat
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

skip to 7minutes and 16s
hyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-08-17, 12:09   Link #6
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mucking about
Age: 64
Scenes in some anime shows are animated "on-the-ones" (24 fps with no duplicated frames) when the material calls for it. For instance, here's Sentarou performing on the drums in episode one of Sakamichi no Apollon:

Every frame in the original sequence is different.

I've even seen full 24 fps animation in things as unlikely as the "Apo's Dream" special that came with one of the Space Brothers releases:


For most sequences with little action, animation on-the-threes seems to be the norm. That duplicates each frame three times.
__________________
SeijiSensei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-08-20, 01:52   Link #7
Utsuro no Hako
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Scenes in some anime shows are animated "on-the-ones" (24 fps with no duplicated frames) when the material calls for it. For instance, here's Sentarou performing on the drums in episode one of Sakamichi no Apollon:

Every frame in the original sequence is different.
Though there is a common cheat where a character will move in one frame, then the background will pan slightly in the next, and then the character moves again in the third, etc. The result is no two frames are alike even though the character is only animated at 12 fps.
Utsuro no Hako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-08-20, 15:29   Link #8
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 26
Would I prefer animation with higher framerate? Hell yeah. I'm pretty sure it isn't done because it's just too much work.

You might say that it wouldn't be that much work to, say, just make the key action scenes high FPS and keep the rest at 12. Indeed, that is sometimes done. But you have to admit it's really noticeable when the animation quality doesn't stay consistent. Seeing that can really ruin people's immersion, and it makes the bulk of the work look worse than if they just kept the quality constant.

For example, I remember watching a Naruto episode with gorgeous animation once, and it was awesome. But in subsequent episodes the animation went back to its standard quality, and suddenly I couldn't watch another episode without thinking about how shit the animation is.
__________________
Jaden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-08-21, 09:12   Link #9
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mucking about
Age: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Though there is a common cheat where a character will move in one frame, then the background will pan slightly in the next, and then the character moves again in the third, etc. The result is no two frames are alike even though the character is only animated at 12 fps.
That's not the case here though. Much of the animation focuses on the drum sticks. There was some question about whether the sequence was based on rotoscoping live performances, but someone on the production staff disputed that notion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Would I prefer animation with higher framerate? Hell yeah. I'm pretty sure it isn't done because it's just too much work.
More likely it's because anime productions cannot afford higher rates.

Quote:
But you have to admit it's really noticeable when the animation quality doesn't stay consistent. Seeing that can really ruin people's immersion, and it makes the bulk of the work look worse than if they just kept the quality constant.
I have a harder time when character models vary widely from one episode to the next. Akane Kazuki granted his episode directors pretty free rein in Noein which led to a different and controversial "moe" look in a couple of episodes. DEEN seemed to replace it entire staff of illustrators about midway through Shion no Ou with its "B" or even "C" team. Characters like Ayumi and Saori were attractive in the early episodes and pretty ugly after the midpoint. The replacement team couldn't draw noses at all.
__________________
SeijiSensei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-08-27, 18:13   Link #10
sunchips18
shinobi of darkness
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Honestly, frame rate is probably the lowest on my priority list for anything. I couldn't care less if something were in 29.97 FPS (which is NTSC standard) or even 24 FPS. To me, I only care about consistency with frame rate. With that being said, I don't understand the appeal for frame rates like 60 FPS. Every time I watch something in that frame rate, it makes me feel slightly motion sick. I can only really handle it when I'm playing a game.
__________________
hey
sunchips18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-08-29, 15:36   Link #11
IceHism
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchips18 View Post
Honestly, frame rate is probably the lowest on my priority list for anything. I couldn't care less if something were in 29.97 FPS (which is NTSC standard) or even 24 FPS. To me, I only care about consistency with frame rate. With that being said, I don't understand the appeal for frame rates like 60 FPS. Every time I watch something in that frame rate, it makes me feel slightly motion sick. I can only really handle it when I'm playing a game.
60fps is really good for live performances and live-action things in general. Kind of weird for animation though.
You can really see the detail and it looks extremely nice.
IceHism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-09, 14:53   Link #12
sunchips18
shinobi of darkness
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceHism View Post
60fps is really good for live performances and live-action things in general. Kind of weird for animation though.
You can really see the detail and it looks extremely nice.
I'll take your word for it. I'll have to watch an anime title in 60 FPS to see if enjoy it in that medium or not.
__________________
hey
sunchips18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.