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Old 2004-05-07, 00:15   Link #21
Taboo
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Wow, I'm not from a huge city so a lot of this sounds so strange and cruel. But I don't doubt that its true, and that the Gantz situation could happen. I live in a very open area, so there isn't always the "someone else will help excuse." But I have used it anyway.

If I see a car accident that just happened, I would stop (and have before) unless there was already several people there. But on occasions I see someone walking along side the interstate, likely from breaking down, and I never stop to help them out. I think "Oh, wow, he has no jacket" or "He's too old to make it to the next exit" but he fear of "What if I let this guy in my car and he's a lunatic" always kicks in. Its not only males that are threatening, but females too. (I'm a girl.) I guess I have heard too many stories from the media and tv/movies, but its a crazy world out there.
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Old 2004-05-07, 00:47   Link #22
Slade xTekno
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Location: Bakersfield, CA, USA,
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Apparently you've never heard of the New York City rape/murder.
A woman was raped and then murdered on the sidewalk as she got out of her car. The police were called the next morning by a frightened pedestrian, and after questioning the inhabitants of the surrounding area, it was revealed that thirty-something people had witnessed the acts, but had done nothing to stop it.

I'm not sure it was New York, but it was a metropolis in [I believe] the Eastern US.
There is a name for this incident that comes from the name of the street it occured on. Now the people in the city are wary for things like this.
The somethingth anniversary of this incident passed about a month ago. I heard it on NPR.
Does anyone know which event I am talking about?
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Old 2004-05-07, 01:46   Link #23
Arwyn
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slade xTekno
Apparently you've never heard of the New York City rape/murder.
A woman was raped and then murdered on the sidewalk as she got out of her car. The police were called the next morning by a frightened pedestrian, and after questioning the inhabitants of the surrounding area, it was revealed that thirty-something people had witnessed the acts, but had done nothing to stop it.

I'm not sure it was New York, but it was a metropolis in [I believe] the Eastern US.
There is a name for this incident that comes from the name of the street it occured on. Now the people in the city are wary for things like this.
The somethingth anniversary of this incident passed about a month ago. I heard it on NPR.
Does anyone know which event I am talking about?
It was New York, and the womans name was Kitty Genovese. It happened in the 1970's, and was part of the explosion in urban crime at the time. Basically it was the worst example of that kind "urban apathy".

A lot of the urban attitude shown in current entertainment is accurate, but it does tend to ignore incidents where people do stop and help.
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Old 2004-05-07, 02:25   Link #24
Yebyosh
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: South East Asia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn
A lot of the urban attitude shown in current entertainment is accurate, but it does tend to ignore incidents where people do stop and help.
That's because it's a rarity than norm. I prefer reports where they report a real samaritan good act than one where they flood us with supposedly 'good' acts but in reality the person had other motives or was simply just there and 'forced' to do so.

Personally, I believe that a urban city brings out the worst in people than a rural setting. The more crowded the city, the worst it would get. The issue I believe is the effects of crowding. The human psyche's private space is invaded and gradually gets smaller and smaller. One cannot live his own life without getting slammed with rock music from the next door or the smell of the burning apartment 3 blocks down. He cannot walk peacefully down a road without getting assaulted by a myriad of images flashing at him from billboards or Tvs or the constant purring of motor engines. Loud noises assault him/her at every corner, overloading his natural senses. One gets frustrated at the lack of privacy as one after another human starts intruding into that space and walks off. Apathy rises. Gradually they start to become withdrawn into that person that is well illustrated by Kei Kuruno of Gantz. Basically selfish and apathetic.

Being in a more rural setting allows more realisation of personal space. Hence the lessening the frustration. While there are still criminals everywhere, the situation in the rural areas are more conducive to a social community. By lesser interactions, humans subconciously feel deprived by the lack of contact and start to be friendlier to people to try to discover that they are not be alone. Those that prefer to be alone would not get irritated by constant intrusion, socialising at their own pace. No external disturbances.
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Old 2004-05-07, 02:34   Link #25
Rei's Cookies
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Join Date: May 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn
It was New York, and the womans name was Kitty Genovese. It happened in the 1970's, and was part of the explosion in urban crime at the time. Basically it was the worst example of that kind "urban apathy".

A lot of the urban attitude shown in current entertainment is accurate, but it does tend to ignore incidents where people do stop and help.

I never heard of this case before.

I looked up on the internet and found this article interesting. It shows that events were exaggerated.

http://www.oldkewgardens.com/ss-nytimes-3.html
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Old 2004-05-07, 07:00   Link #26
Wolfsbane68
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People can do awful things to people in rural setting as well as in urban. They just do it to their family instead of strangers (e.g. the child rape trial that just started in France). And with no police involved and those in the know too scared, everything is swept under the carpet.
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Old 2004-05-07, 08:37   Link #27
Yebyosh
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfsbane68
People can do awful things to people in rural setting as well as in urban. They just do it to their family instead of strangers (e.g. the child rape trial that just started in France). And with no police involved and those in the know too scared, everything is swept under the carpet.
This is done in the city even more. Using the notion of everything is swept under the carpet can be applied to city living as well, especially in places where people ignore the going ons in the next apartment for fear of getting into trouble or simply apathy.

Statistically revealed crime is several times higher in your crowded metropolis than your spread out area (rural or suburban).

You do not need criminal acts to be mean and awful to people. The general attitude and behaviour of crowded metropolis are awful compared to the suburbs and rural areas.
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Old 2004-05-07, 12:22   Link #28
GarBhaD
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980

1. A pregnant woman would be in the street undergoing labor, but no one does anything
2. Teenagers would go beat up homeless people in broad daylight "just for fun & to cleanse the streets" and no one could care less
3. An elderly person would have trouble walking across the street, the light is already red, cars honk at the old lady "to go faster" and "get your old ass off the street" while other pedestrians just stare with this blank expression.
4. A suicidal person would be on top of the building who is clinging to some kind of last hope, while onlookers on the ground yell "come on, let's see some blood," and "if you are going to do it, do it now! I don't have all day ya'know?!"

and of course, since this happens almost weekly:
5. Another person committed suicide by jumping in front of the train at a certain station. Everyone sighs: "damn, I'm going to be late for work/school again" No one cares about the hapless soul who ended his/her life early. Neither do I. I'm either assimilated so deeply into urban life, I don't even think about it. All I care is getting that stamp/piece of paper from the station guy to give to my human resources dept. and my boss as an excuse why I am late for work.
Whoa! People sure is cold out there!
You all call it "normal urban life", but where I live there are big cities too and things like that don't happen. Maybe you should think it better and don't lay all the responsibility on "the city" or the "urban life" and more on yourselves for not caring about others. Who knows? Someday you could be the one who is in trouble. Watching how everyone ignores you while you're in pain, that must hurt a damn lot.
I know well that one person alone can't change anything. But at the same time, if you don't set a good example, who's going to do it? This problem is very difficult to solve and someday you (or your children) will have to face it. For once I feel happy about living here.

Of course that there are lots of cases of murdering, rape, and whatever here too. Crazy people and idiots were, are and will be everywhere in the world but that's no excuse to do something when you see an accident or similar. I always thought that "People must help each other when they're through hardships " was part of common sense and human nature, but it seems I was wrong (or you lost it).

About the examples that kj1980 showed before I'd like to show a comparison of societies:

1 -> This can't happen here!
2 -> This involves violence and that's the exception to the rule. People here would ignore that but someone would call the police, that's for sure. It's not that they don't care: they're just afraid and don't have confidence that if they oppose the vandals, other people would join them.

3 -> This can't happen here!
4 -> This can't happen here! (My god, if the guy kills himself, won't they feel responsible? This should be a crime!)

5 -> Even though this kind of incident doesn't appear on newspapers, it is said that happens quite often, but not as weekly or even monthly. And people still shocks about it (I'm sure that a few only think about being late at work as you say though). In fact, I saw it once. People tried to stop her, but couldn't and... Well, you know. People was freaking shocked.


Ah! someone mentioned about indigents. Well, there are lots in the subway asking for charity and people ignores them since most aren't really poor or waste the money on wine, tobacco and such so people don't trust'em.
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Old 2004-05-10, 14:45   Link #29
Sepiraph
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Join Date: May 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarBhaD
Whoa! People sure is cold out there!
You all call it "normal urban life", but where I live there are big cities too and things like that don't happen. Maybe you should think it better and don't lay all the responsibility on "the city" or the "urban life" and more on yourselves for not caring about others. Who knows? Someday you could be the one who is in trouble. Watching how everyone ignores you while you're in pain, that must hurt a damn lot.
I know well that one person alone can't change anything. But at the same time, if you don't set a good example, who's going to do it? This problem is very difficult to solve and someday you (or your children) will have to face it. For once I feel happy about living here.

Of course that there are lots of cases of murdering, rape, and whatever here too. Crazy people and idiots were, are and will be everywhere in the world but that's no excuse to do something when you see an accident or similar. I always thought that "People must help each other when they're through hardships " was part of common sense and human nature, but it seems I was wrong (or you lost it).
While I share similar views and attitudes wtih u in that it'd be better if people would take more responsibilties on themselves, I'd say that we are the exception rather the norm in this case. People in this thread has already mentioned the "diffusion of responsibilty" and in general the statement applies here in crowded area.


Quote:
About the examples that kj1980 showed before I'd like to show a comparison of societies:

1 -> This can't happen here!
2 -> This involves violence and that's the exception to the rule. People here would ignore that but someone would call the police, that's for sure. It's not that they don't care: they're just afraid and don't have confidence that if they oppose the vandals, other people would join them.

3 -> This can't happen here!
4 -> This can't happen here! (My god, if the guy kills himself, won't they feel responsible? This should be a crime!)

5 -> Even though this kind of incident doesn't appear on newspapers, it is said that happens quite often, but not as weekly or even monthly. And people still shocks about it (I'm sure that a few only think about being late at work as you say though). In fact, I saw it once. People tried to stop her, but couldn't and... Well, you know. People was freaking shocked.
No doubt cultural disparity would make a difference, but I'd imagine the population densities and environment in Metropolis Tokyo would be vastly different than even the biggest city in Spain (assuming that's where u are from).
Unless u actually lived in Tokyo, u wouldnt believe how crowded some of the places can be (I lived in Hong Kong for ten years so I can relate to it). I am not using it as it as an excuse to justify that type of behaviour, but it is most likely a different experience than u'd imagine.
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Old 2004-05-10, 14:58   Link #30
SwiftStar
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brooklyn
It's not all that bad. I live in NYC. I myself have stopped and helped up people who have fallen. I once fell down a flight of steps and a nameless stranger picked me up. I also have seen someone attack someone only to get fenced in by a group of people who didnt want to allow them to get away before the cops came. Dont signal the coming of the apocalypse yet.
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Old 2004-05-10, 15:12   Link #31
Joe Dalton
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Much like hobogod said... Do you really think that if you move from 1 place 2 annother that the PEOPLE will be different?
No matter where you go humans are the same only under different conditions.
How easy is it 2 kill someone when there are is no form of judgement on you?
How often do you hear WOW that movie was awesome such a high body cout!!! (good example is the ever so beloved kill bill)
Or 1 of those news reports where they show you the real corpses of people... and people WILL watch it... they will go ooooow wow that really opened my eyes... while they are sitting infront of their computer and drinking their morning coffee.
Is this new? hell no the main form of entertainment used 2 be watching executions or people being tortured.

In the mean time im waiting for EQ2 beta confirmation... damn them if I didnt get in..
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Old 2004-05-10, 16:10   Link #32
kaevne
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by complich8
a lot of this is the sociological phenomenon called "diffusion of responsibility"

That means the more people there are watching or listening to something, the less likely any one person is to act.

If you're alone on a street and someone collapses, you know it's your responsibility to get help for them. There's nobody to share the responsibility with.

If you're with a couple dozen strangers and the same thing happens, you "know" someone will help, so you don't feel it's your responsibility. It's "someone's" but not yours.

It's mainly a problem in places with dense disconnected populations (metro areas in general).

Back in high school, we had a mandatory cpr and first aid class. Everyone in the state had it. We talked about diffusion of responsibility, responsibilities and protections for first aid providers and first responders (good Samaritan laws). Basically it amounted to this: in the US the law encourages you to intervene and help, by automatically absolving you of any culpability. So if some old lady collapses in the park, and you call 911 and get an ambulance on the way and start giving her CPR, and she survives but with a couple of broken ribs (older people tend to have ribs break when given cpr due to less flexible ribcages) you aren't at fault. And if she dies despite your efforts, you still aren't at fault.

These protections, and this mandatory training in my home state, make us more aware of the fact that we can and should help. Being aware of our social behaviors tends to help us break free of them, and being aware that we're empowered to help also does.

In the case of Gantz, with the old drunk and the train tracks, if they had gone and immediately helped him up they'd have had plenty of time to scramble up themselves. But they hesitated, they wasted a few minutes before anyone went down to help him. That hesitation and the crowd's unwillingness to help overall is what created the negative results there.

I think that the lesson of that scenario is not that people are inhuman, but that people don't feel responsible and don't feel qualified to help. Think of the people saying to themselves "is anyone going to call the station attendant? Where's the attendant?" because they didn't know what else to do.
That's completely correct. The seemingly "inhumane" behavior of people in these situations is more of an error in our genetic programming.

HOWEVER, there is a phenomenon, and I find this very interesting, where the victim is a CHILD, usually less than 12, and not an old drunk man or a middle aged pregnant woman, and adult bystanders in ALL cultures and ALL walks of life will do WHATEVER is possible to help the child. People throw themselves in front of cars and trains and risk their lives to save children. It's as if our genes have a bit of code that tells us to preserve the society and save the younger generation. This is an exception to diffusion of responsibility.

aint dat cool?

don't uhh take ur little sister and put her in danger just to see if u'll be empowered to save her life or anything...
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