AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto

Notices

View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2004-08-22, 12:29   Link #221
Animizzle
Cool as a Cucumber
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Holland
Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
I didnt say anything else about his ninjutsu. I was merely pointing out that Itachi has not given us a chance to see his other skills. His brief fight with Kkakashi was only determined by mange sharingan. Kakashi was skilled enough to see through all of Itachi's attacks. Itachi even commended him on his eye of insight which was "lightning fast". I was giving an example of taijutsu. As far as the ninjutsu department WE JUST DONT KNOW.
I see your point, but I guess it's kind of safe to say he posseses powerfull ninjutsu's hence he HAS the sharigan IS a member of akatsuki(wich could probably translate into seeing thus learninbg more powerful Jutu's) and IS an incredible Genius, but yea...for the sake of basic facts..we can't know.

Quote:
No they were talking about Jiraiya. Theres no ambiguity about this.
Ok thnx for telling, I never knew for sure

Quote:
I understand what you mean, but you need to see what im saying. Im saying we cannot take orochimarus statement that Itachi is stronger than him as proof that Itachi is stronger than the sannin. That is Orochimaruo alone. And furthermore Orochimaru is infatuated and obsessed with jutsu numbers. He has said many many times that number of jutsu is what makes you strong. Two episodes ago jiraiya had to tell him that jutsu number is not what is important. What is important is a spirit that never gives up. Just because Orochimaru is unconfident about beating Itachi, doesnt mean that Jiraiya and Tsunade are goin to lose to itachi.
True, What it boils down to is pure speculation since were talking about the "prime"of people we don't know for sure how far their prime power lies form their current. Hence you say:

Quote:
Personally i believe Itachi is extremely strong obviously, but at his current age he is still not as powerful as the sannin were in their prime.
Wich is probably the best conclusion.

:]
Animizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 12:32   Link #222
Hunter
Bubbly and super fun
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbrother
That's circular logic. He's strong because he's the god of the shinobi or because he's a legendary sannin does nothing except restate your premise. I don't see many strong old ninjas because I don't see many old ninjas period. Of course, Sarutobi was stronger when he was younger, that's not in dispute.
It's the way around, he was the God of the Shinobi because he was the strongest.
That's not a circular logic, you just didn't understand the point.

They were the strongest, so much that they remains the strongest even when they're old.
And not : oh I'm old! Now I'm strong!

Your point is to say that the oldest are the strongest, heck you take as example the strongest ninjas ever to begin with.
There are no other old ninja? Wonder why.
Because they're dead or in retirement.

Yeah Sarutobi was stronger when he was younger, Oro remains young precisely not to become weaker and finally die because of oldness, Tsunade uses Ninjutsu to change her body.
Only Jiraiya has the body of his age and guess what? Yeah he was probably stronger when he was in his prime.

Quote:
The point of that message was that shinobi are very much unlike athletes. Athletes are tied almost solely to their physical condition, which starts to noticably decline at 35 or a bit before. Shinobi, however, are not solely bound to their physical condition. Even at the age of 50, they still retain knowledge of all of their jutsu, most of their chakra and even sharper intellect and can compete on the level or greater than shinobi much younger than them. This is not the case with an athlete.
Shinobi are bound by their physical condiction as anybody else, jutsu needs chakra, chakra needs physical condition.
And yeah there isn't only physical condition, neither for athletes.

Raikage you talk about martial artists, martial artists are athlete.
That's not because it's the JO that athlete only means doped guys running like hell.
Sharper intellect with age? Since when?
And once again you can only take the example of the strongest ninja ever in their old against young but far weaker Ninjas to begin with.

lol Jacky Chan can probably beat the hell out of you even if he's over his 50, it's not because he's old because he was even better when he was young.
It's just that he's far stronger than you are period.

Quote:
Assume, for a minute, that Orochimaru is in his same 50 year old body. Do you think the Orochimaru of 25 could defeat the Orochimaru of 50, who has now Edo Tensei, much more experience, sharper wit, and whatever more jutsu he has picked up and/or created over 25 years? Hardly. Why? Because physical ability alone plays a much lesser role in shinobi strength than an athlete.
Firstly how do you know that Oro didn't know the Edo Tensei when he was 25?
Then I don't know how would be the body of Oro in his 50 so there is no point in that and finally, you take the example of a Ninjutsu freak.
I will do the opposite : Gai will be better at 50 than at 25 when he will be weaker and slower?

Quote:
As for the Sarutobi/Orochimaru fight, yes, Sarutobi at 67 had lost much of his ability. But that is well beyond the age range of what we are discussing. In fact, Orochimaru admitted that he would probably lose to a Sarutobi who was merely 10 years younger. It appears that even at the age of 50ish shinobi still retain much if not most of their ability.
Actually that's not what Oro said, he said that 10 years younger, the 3rd could have probably been able to kill him when he had enough strength to pull out his soul.

Sarutobi could stand up against Oro 13~15 years old ago during their first confrontation.
It appears that Sarutobi isn't the God of the Shinobi for nothing.

Quote:
Kyuubi was sealed 13 years ago, which would put Sarutobi at 54, if Yondaime were Hokage for a few years that would put Sarutobi at around ~50ish when he retired. I'm not saying he didn't get the title until he retired, but what I am saying that I think it's hardly likely he recieved "best ninja ever" at the young age of 25. In fact there is nothing to prove that, it's more likely he proved he was the best over a lifetime of action, at least until 40, maybe more.
25 years old isn't young for ninja fighting since they're children.
Kakashi is obviously known internationally as Copy Ninja Kakashi.
The Sannin were legendary in their 20, Itachi became (in)famous at 13 when he whipped out his clan.
It's also about this age that the 4th saved Konoha from the Kyubi.
They become Ninja at 6~12 years old, their job is the deadliest.
No 25 years isn't young.

Especially for the 3rd and the Sannin who lived in a era of perpetual war.

Quote:
It's meaningless in this context, yes. I didn't say Yondaime didn't have enough time to build up a legend.
Actually that's pretty much exactly what you said, a little quote?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbrother
That's not the point. Sarutobi had 50+ years to establish his legend and ability, Yondaime had 25. Big difference.
Quote:
He is Konoha's legendary Hokage, the sealer of the Nine-tails. The sannin and Yondaime are all legendary, that's not in dispute. The point was, did Yondaime have enough time to prove that he was the "best ninja ever," and I would say no, there's no telling what other jutsus and actions he could've taken which would've given him that title. Like you said, it's a matter of strength and actions. Sarutobi had time for many, many more actions than did the Fourth.
So that's excatly what I said, there is no 'probable' in your point, it's just your wish.
Yeah the 4th has enough time to built his legend, and he became the greatest hero of Konoha by saving all the village from the Kyubi.
Still he's known as the strongest one.
Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 13:04   Link #223
Macbrother
The mac
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Carolina
Send a message via AIM to Macbrother
Quote:
It's the way around, he was the God of the Shinobi because he was the strongest.
That's not a circular logic, you just didn't understand the point.

They were the strongest, so much that they remains the strongest even when they're old.
And not : oh I'm old! Now I'm strong!

Your point is to say that the oldest are the strongest, heck you take as example the strongest ninjas ever to begin with.
There are no other old ninja? Wonder why.
Because they're dead or in retirement.

Yeah Sarutobi was stronger when he was younger, Oro remains young precisely not to become weaker and finally die because of oldness, Tsunade uses Ninjutsu to change her body.
Only Jiraiya has the body of his age and guess what? Yeah he was probably stronger when he was in his prime.
You didn't say it the other way around. You answered why the sannin are so powerful at 50 with "because they are the legendary sannin." That does not answer the question of why they are able to maintain enormous chakra and ability at such an age. Your claim that they are strong now because they were stronger then is a load of crap, shinobi don't reach 25 and say "ok, I'm at my prime, now I'm going to stop learning new and more powerful jutsu because I'm at my prime." The strength of a shinobi is a continual process which depends on what their stamina, what jutsu they know, and other physical abilities. While the speed and strength may decline, the chakra remains relatively constant and the knowledge of jutsu increases.

Quote:
Shinobi are bound by their physical condiction as anybody else, jutsu needs chakra, chakra needs physical condition.
And yeah there isn't only physical condition, neither for athletes.

Raikage you talk about martial artists, martial artists are athlete.
That's not because it's the JO that athlete only means doped guys running like hell.
Sharper intellect with age? Since when?
And once again you can only take the example of the strongest ninja ever in their old against young but far weaker Ninjas to begin with.

lol Jacky Chan can probably beat the hell out of you even if he's over his 50, it's not because he's old because he was even better when he was young.
It's just that he's far stronger than you are period.
You are continually missing the point. Ninja abilities are bound by much more than their physical ability alone, that being their intellect and jutsu knowledge. They are in a sense part-athlete, part-martial artist and part-spell caster. It takes no physical speed or strength to sit back and move my hands really fast and overwhelm a younger, healthier shinobi who doesn't have the jutsu to compete.

Let's say a shinobi john learns Katon super fireball at 25, then learns Katon grand fireball at 35, then learns Katon ultimate fireball at 45. John is strongest at 45, why? Because he has learned better and more capable jutsu, regardless of his waning physical strength and speed. His chakra is remaining reasonably constant because the increase in his traning and experience are balancing out the decrease his physical energy. That seems to me a reasonable explanation as to why sannin retain their enormous chakras even at 50. Yes, this example is contrived but the point remains, time allows for learning and creation of better jutsu which can make a better shinobi, period.

Quote:
Firstly how do you know that Oro didn't know the Edo Tensei when he was 25?
Then I don't know how would be the body of Oro in his 50 so there is no point in that and finally, you take the example of a Ninjutsu freak.
I will do the opposite : Gai will be better at 50 than at 25 when he will be weaker and slower?
Because that's ridiculously unlikely. To create and master such a jutsu he would've surely needed test subjects (sacrifices) along with a huge amount of time; anbu and chuunin weren't disappearing until shortly before he left (at 35+?) and he was still doing missions for the village and such. It's much more likely he learned this in his later years, along with his immortality jutsu after and during the time he fled the village, where he could work on it alone, in private, and with as many randomm people he liked.

Don't try to evade the question either, it's painfully obvious the Orochimaru of now would lay waste to the Orochimaru of 25, his shit would no doubt be in ruins, he no doubt has a much more vast arsenal of ninjutsu than he did at 25. As for Gai, that's a good question. Maybe, maybe not. That depends on what taijutsu techniques he could've picked up in those 25 years. Taijutsu is the arena most dependent on physical strength and speed so he may or may not be able to defeat a younger Gai, again, depending on what if any new taijutsu abilities he learned.

Quote:
Actually that's not what Oro said, he said that 10 years younger, the 3rd could have probably been able to kill him when he had enough strength to pull out his soul.

Sarutobi could stand up against Oro 13~15 years old ago during their first confrontation.
It appears that Sarutobi isn't the God of the Shinobi for nothing.
Whether he was referring to that specific technique or that he could kill Oro overall 10 years ago, we don't know, but it's irrelavent. Let's just replace 10 with 13, not like it matters. So at 54 he could've still defeated him, my point remains.

Quote:
25 years old isn't young for ninja fighting since they're children.
Kakashi is obviously known internationally as Copy Ninja Kakashi.
The Sannin were legendary in their 20, Itachi became (in)famous at 13 when he whipped out his clan.
It's also about this age that the 4th saved Konoha from the Kyubi.
They become Ninja at 6~12 years old, their job is the deadliest.
No 25 years isn't young.

Especially for the 3rd and the Sannin who lived in a era of perpetual war.
It's young compared to 50. Yes, the sannin were legendary when they were in their twenties, as was Yondaime. Again, we're not talking about 'legendary' so bringing up the sannin, are meaningless. We're talking about "best of all time", that's a step up from legendary, you agree? Good, now, the point is, was he called "best of all time" at 25, and I think that's pretty unlikely.

Quote:
Actually that's pretty much exactly what you said, a little quote?
The point of me using Sarutobi was that we are not just talking about legendary, we are talking about "best of all time." Yondaime did not have the time Sarutobi did to build up that kind of legend, which is what I said.

Quote:
So that's excatly what I said, there is no 'probable' in your point, it's just your wish.
Yeah the 4th has enough time to built his legend, and he became the greatest hero of Konoha by saving all the village from the Kyubi.
Still he's known as the strongest one.
Right, so creating the arguably the most powerful jutsu in existance, creating the Rasengan, along with overcoming Kyuubi all at the "young" age of 25 doesn't lend any credence to the fact that Yondaime "probably" would've been the greatest of all time had he more time to create new jutsu and tackle more problems. Uh huh.
__________________
You tame a dog with food. You tame a man with money. But there is nothing that can tame a miburo. -- Hajime Saito
Macbrother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 14:37   Link #224
AznExzztasy
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NYC
Age: 26
Send a message via AIM to AznExzztasy
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboGod
the 3rd hokage was considered the greatest hokage and was nicknamed the professor because of his great knowledge of jutsus. the hokage is considered the greatest of all kages, and thusly the 3rd hokage is the greatest ninja.... this has been discussed countless timed before, and i believe there was a thread that asked everyone's opinion of the 5 greatest ninjas.

i think my list was something like:

1) 3rd hokage in prime
2) Itachi
3) Orochimaru (before his arms were sealed)
4) 4th hokage
5) Jiraiya
Why would Itachi be placed in front of Jiraiya and even the Yondaime? Thats just a little crazy. We don't even know the full powers of Itachi besides a few eye tricks and his black fire jutsu. Its too premature to assume that he is more powerful than Jiraiya and the 4th.

I voted 3rd Hokage in prime as the greatest shinobi. One great example of his power is his final fight with Orochimaru. Even at his age, he was able to hold off not only Oro, but the 1st and 2nd as well. That is insane for an old guy in his 70s or so. If he was in his prime like 30-40, he could have easily beaten them. Orochimaru even said that if Sarutobi was just a few years younger, Orochimaru would not be able to beat him.
__________________
"The power to believe in yourself. That will become the power to change fate."
AznExzztasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 16:25   Link #225
Last of the Uchiha
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
I didnt say anything else about his ninjutsu. I was merely pointing out that Itachi has not given us a chance to see his other skills. His brief fight with Kkakashi was only determined by mange sharingan. Kakashi was skilled enough to see through all of Itachi's attacks. Itachi even commended him on his eye of insight which was "lightning fast". I was giving an example of taijutsu. As far as the ninjutsu department WE JUST DONT KNOW.
If Itachi is in a Organizatiions that collects powerful jutsus and youmas, so without a doubt Itachi has powrful jutsus in his arsenal, that can rival that of Kakashi's. Also, when Itachi and Kakashi weres facing off, Itachi was playing with Kakashi the entire fight, so its clear who is more powerful. When Itachi pulled out Tsukiyomi, he did it to humiliate Kakashi in front of others, since he thought he could rival Itachi's sharingan.


Quote:
No they were talking about Jiraiya. Theres no ambiguity about this.
Yes. But the translation that i have, Itachi never said he would die in the process against Jiraiya. Most of the talking was made by Kisame, not Itachi.

Quote:
I understand what you mean, but you need to see what im saying. Im saying we cannot take orochimarus statement that Itachi is stronger than him as proof that Itachi is stronger than the sannin. That is Orochimaruo alone. And furthermore Orochimaru is infatuated and obsessed with jutsu numbers. He has said many many times that number of jutsu is what makes you strong. Two episodes ago jiraiya had to tell him that jutsu number is not what is important. What is important is a spirit that never gives up. Just because Orochimaru is unconfident about beating Itachi, doesnt mean that Jiraiya and Tsunade are goin to lose to itachi.
Orochimaru is the strongets of the Sannin and has the body when he was in his prime and he still said that Itachi was stronger than him. You are just trying to discredit everything regarding Itachi's reputation. Orochimaru was facing the strongets Hokages that the Leaf ever produced which knew almost the all the jutsus there were to know, hence the nickname The Proffessor. He faced the Third knowing that he had more jutsus than him and the strongest Hokage and he wasn't scared or gave up for that matter. He fought until he overwhelmed him, that Sandaime decide to killed himself along with Orochimaru which he still couldn't do.

Quote:
Just the same way that Itachi saying Jiraiya will hand kisame and him their asses, isnt neccessarily true.
Itachi didn't said that, you know.


Quote:
So far weve seen itachi fight kakashi, where kakashi was able to keep up with him until he used mange sharingan.
Itachi was playing with Three Jounnins, read my post in the begining

Quote:
Weve seen itachi kick sasukes ass.
Any Jounnincan kicked Sasuke ass, as any Jounnin can kick Naruto's ass.

Quote:
[
Weve seen itachi run from jiraiya.
Why? Because he was scared! It seems to me that Jiraiya was afraid that he didn't pursue Itachi and killed once and for all, since he was a threat to Naruto and he did said he was going to killed Itachi and Kisame. Lets face it, once Jiraiya saw what was left of Amaterasu, he knew he was bitting more that he could chew.

Quote:
Ofcourse there are reasons for all of this, like itachi was low on chakra. But my point is you cannot say he is the strongest character when we have not even seen what he can truly do nor have we seen him face anyone stronger than a jounin.
Orochimaru said, Itachi was stronger, if you want to believe something else, that's your problem. This is being said by the strongets of the Sannins and would be Hokage before any of the Sannins. Also, having seen Orochimaru talking to Kabuto about Itachi being stronger than him, and then showing us his original body laying on the floor itsn't a coincidence. We weren't shown that body becasue he can do the immortality jutsu, but becasue he was defeated by Itachi, why else would he the strongest Sannin said that Itachi was stronger than him. That was the reason why Orochimaru left the organization, becasue Itachi was stronger than him, which also, bring up another subject. If Orochimaru left because he was strongert than him, thus that said that he was the stronger in that organization, i think so.

Quote:
Personally i believe Itachi is extremely strong obviously, but at his current age he is still not as powerful as the sannin were in their prime.
Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru in his prime. Orochimaru has a young body and has 50 year of experience and still isn't a match for Itachi.

Quote:
But thats just my opinion. All I can say is that when naruto hits his prime, he will be the god of all shinobi ^^. Not just because he is the main chracter but because by then his knowledge, spirit, and kyubi mastery will make him unstoppable.
Sasuke was meant to be the greatest shinobi of his time, but because he doesn't have a kyuubi he won't be, thus Naruto will be considered the next God of the shinobis. In all areas Sasuke far surpasses Naruto, which just prove how genius he is. Hell, everyone know the reputaions of the Uchihas and they are still amazed by Sasuke for being trully a genius. Many people won't agree but you know it's the truth.
__________________
Sasuke:"My dreams are not in the future"
"My dreams are in the past... and nowhere else"
Last of the Uchiha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 16:42   Link #226
Animizzle
Cool as a Cucumber
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Holland
oh wel...thnx for defending me :P
Animizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 17:04   Link #227
Ke0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In My cubicle
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to Ke0
Quote:
Yes. But the translation that i have, Itachi never said he would die in the process against Jiraiya. Most of the talking was made by Kisame, not Itachi.
But the other translations did. This isn't LOTR mate, it isn't your translation rules them all



Quote:
Orochimaru is the strongets of the Sannin and has the body when he was in his prime and he still said that Itachi was stronger than him. You are just trying to discredit everything regarding Itachi's reputation. Orochimaru was facing the strongets Hokages that the Leaf ever produced which knew almost the all the jutsus there were to know, hence the nickname The Proffessor. He faced the Third knowing that he had more jutsus than him and the strongest Hokage and he wasn't scared or gave up for that matter. He fought until he overwhelmed him, that Sandaime decide to killed himself along with Orochimaru which he still couldn't do.
2 thing wrong

1. Orochimaru is a jutsu whore, he says it countless times he compares strength based on Jutsu and nothing more. The more you have the stronger you are. He's said that to Sarutobi, and Jiraiya. He has no way other than expirementation to gain new jutsu. I'm sure he has a nice collection, but do you honestly think he has more than Itachi who was in the same organization...............you know the one that collects extremely powerful and rare jutsu + he has Sharingan. Since Itachi most likely has more, I can easily say Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru not because he just is. But because he has alot more jutsu............Wait......that's how Orochimaru thinks. Now if Itachi says in the best outcome of a Itachi/Kisame/Jiraiya fight that they will beat Jiraiya, but will die themselves, And Orochimaru says the strength between him and Jiraiya still has a big gap with Orochimaru being stronger...........How exactly is Itachi above the Sannin?

2. Orochimaru knows Sarutobi, and his fighting style, he knows what Sarutobi is capable of. Add in he's an old geezer now, he can't perform alot of his jutsu with ease (Notice he did not do bushin after one of his jutsu.........because he was too old, and Orochimaru comments on this, and even says that he's too old.) As Hunter has stated, Sarutobi was probably alot stronger in his prime, and would probably put Orochimaru in his place. Then we have Sarutobi who he himself says that no one can stop Orochimaru now. (Obviously he's including himself) So even Sarutobi knows that Orochimaru would most likely beat him in a fight, (Which happens) I'm sure Orochimaru knows all of this too, so I'm not suprised he wasn't scared of Sarutobi.

Itachi was playing with Three Jounnins, read my post in the begining



Any Jounnincan kicked Sasuke ass, as any Jounnin can kick Naruto's ass.



Quote:
Why? Because he was scared! It seems to me that Jiraiya was afraid that he didn't pursue Itachi and killed once and for all, since he was a threat to Naruto and he did said he was going to killed Itachi and Kisame. Lets face it, once Jiraiya saw what was left of Amaterasu, he knew he was bitting more that he could chew.
You're joking right? I'm guessing by your logic, Itachi was just as scared.......oh wait he was even more afraid because he was the one who ran away. I mean once he saw Jiraiya's Toad throat jutsu, he knew he was biting more than he could chew, so he had to hightail it out of there


Quote:
Orochimaru said, Itachi was stronger, if you want to believe something else, that's your problem. This is being said by the strongets of the Sannins and would be Hokage before any of the Sannins. Also, having seen Orochimaru talking to Kabuto about Itachi being stronger than him, and then showing us his original body laying on the floor itsn't a coincidence. We weren't shown that body becasue he can do the immortality jutsu, but becasue he was defeated by Itachi, why else would he the strongest Sannin said that Itachi was stronger than him. That was the reason why Orochimaru left the organization, becasue Itachi was stronger than him, which also, bring up another subject. If Orochimaru left because he was strongert than him, thus that said that he was the stronger in that organization, i think so.
WTF? They show Orochimaru's original body? All I saw was a hand with a ring.......you know the ring that he had when he was in same organization as Itachi, but left..........hence them focusing on the ring, to let us the viewer know possibly were he knew Itachi from besides..........I want your version since you see the whole body and all.



Quote:
Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru in his prime. Orochimaru has a young body and has 50 year of experience and still isn't a match for Itachi.
Yes because we all saw that fight. Or are you going to say because Orochimaru said so? I mean according to everyone in where I live, I'm the better artist than my friend Karson because my drawings look better and I can do more styles of art (real life, surrealism, etc etc). But I think Karson is better than me, because he takes less time to do the same piece as me, and can work from all angles and has a nice style. To me, if you can do a piece in a few minutes and have a nice style, even if mine looks better, I still say your the better artist.

Does that mean he is better than me because I said so? Or is it just me putting myself down, because of my beliefs of what makes a great artist?



Quote:
Sasuke was meant to be the greatest shinobi of his time
I would just love to know how you came to that conclusion.
Ke0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 17:26   Link #228
UserName
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Last of the Uchiha, Oro isn't the strongest sannins as you mentioned quite a bit. And also they fight differently, Oro would lose to Itachi and Itachi would lose to Jiraiya, but if Jiraya were to face Oro, I might call it a tie, or maybe Jiraiya based on that comment about having the will to fight. He would just keep going like Naurto.
UserName is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 18:04   Link #229
Last of the Uchiha
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ke0
But the other translations did. This isn't LOTR mate, it isn't your translation rules them all
Mine said that Jiraiya might be a match for the # 1 of the Leaf and one of the mist seven shinobi nothing else. All the dialogue concerning Jiraiya was said by Kisame not Itachi, and in a couple of ocassion Kisame said that Itachi could take Jiraiya alone. Don't look at the anime for evidence because the anime is based on the manga, you should know that by now.


Quote:
2 thing wrong

1. Orochimaru is a jutsu whore, he says it countless times he compares strength based on Jutsu and nothing more. The more you have the stronger you are. He's said that to Sarutobi, and Jiraiya. He has no way other than expirementation to gain new jutsu. I'm sure he has a nice collection, but do you honestly think he has more than Itachi who was in the same organization...............you know the one that collects extremely powerful and rare jutsu + he has Sharingan. Since Itachi most likely has more, I can easily say Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru not because he just is. But because he has alot more jutsu............Wait......that's how Orochimaru thinks. Now if Itachi says in the best outcome of a Itachi/Kisame/Jiraiya fight that they will beat Jiraiya, but will die themselves, And Orochimaru says the strength between him and Jiraiya still has a big gap with Orochimaru being stronger...........How exactly is Itachi above the Sannin?

2. Orochimaru knows Sarutobi, and his fighting style, he knows what Sarutobi is capable of. Add in he's an old geezer now, he can't perform alot of his jutsu with ease (Notice he did not do bushin after one of his jutsu.........because he was too old, and Orochimaru comments on this, and even says that he's too old.) As Hunter has stated, Sarutobi was probably alot stronger in his prime, and would probably put Orochimaru in his place. Then we have Sarutobi who he himself says that no one can stop Orochimaru now. (Obviously he's including himself) So even Sarutobi knows that Orochimaru would most likely beat him in a fight, (Which happens) I'm sure Orochimaru knows all of this too, so I'm not suprised he wasn't scared of Sarutobi.

Actually, i'm not wrong. Sarutobi the greatest Hokage of all time said that Orochimaru was a shinobi that came once in a decade and wanted him to be his successor, before the Fourth took the mantle. He wanted Orochimaru to be Hokage so bad that that he let him free after all the killing he made. I wasn't questioning that the Third was the strongest in his prime but still was considered the strongets of the five Hokages and the facts that Orochimaru killed the Hokage and the Kazekage. Orochimaru do measure strength by how many jutsus you know, but also by overall strength. Kakashi rival the Third on jutsus and Kakashi is a bug in front of Orochimaru. Orochimaru is the strongest od the Sannin, and he said that Itachi was stronger than him. If Orochimaru is a shinobi that comes once in a decade, Itachi is a shinobi who come once in a century. They are both geniuses but its clear who is the most genius.


Quote:
You're joking right? I'm guessing by your logic, Itachi was just as scared.......oh wait he was even more afraid because he was the one who ran away. I mean once he saw Jiraiya's Toad throat jutsu, he knew he was biting more than he could chew, so he had to hightail it out of there
I'm not joking! Jiraiya was talking big in how he was going to killed Itachi and Kisame but when he saw what was left of Amaterasu he chicken out. If he was so determine to kill those who would harm Naruto why didn't he chase after them and killed them as he said so. He would have gotten rid off the thrat once and for all. Itachi had an excuse to abandon the mission because he was tired, not to mentioned that Kisame thought Itachi could still fight Jiraiya and win. But what's Jiraiya excuse for not following them. Exactly!



Quote:
WTF? They show Orochimaru's original body? All I saw was a hand with a ring.......you know the ring that he had when he was in same organization as Itachi, but left..........hence them focusing on the ring, to let us the viewer know possibly were he knew Itachi from besides..........I want your version since you see the whole body and all.
If you notice the hand and look at Orochimaru position, you can see there is more space below but they only showed the hand. The case is, Body or hand, that's what was left of Orochimaru original body. Why do you think the author decided to show us Orochiamru telling us that the reason he left the organization was because Itachi was stronger than him and then decides to show us what was left of his body. Obviously he fought Itachi so he could take his body, but lost and that's why he he said Itachi is stronger and then show us what was left of his body. That's logic.


Quote:
Yes because we all saw that fight. Or are you going to say because Orochimaru said so? I mean according to everyone in where I live, I'm the better artist than my friend Karson because my drawings look better and I can do more styles of art (real life, surrealism, etc etc). But I think Karson is better than me, because he takes less time to do the same piece as me, and can work from all angles and has a nice style. To me, if you can do a piece in a few minutes and have a nice style, even if mine looks better, I still say your the better artist.

Does that mean he is better than me because I said so? Or is it just me putting myself down, because of my beliefs of what makes a great artist?
Read what i posted above.

Quote:
I would just love to know how you came to that conclusion.

Then, you clearly haven't read anything that has been said about the Uchihas and Sasuke. Read the whole series again(especially the all Uchihas parts, as many Naruto's fans don't read them at all. I'm not saying that you are one) and then tell me that.
__________________
Sasuke:"My dreams are not in the future"
"My dreams are in the past... and nowhere else"
Last of the Uchiha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 18:19   Link #230
Trax
Rock beats scissors
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Meh... Itachi had a valid reason to run off, he'd used up quite a bit of chakra already. And Jiraiya had a valid reason not to pursue, with Sasuke beaten to a pulp. I don't think you can really draw any conclusions either way.
Trax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 18:33   Link #231
Last of the Uchiha
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trax
Meh... Itachi had a valid reason to run off, he'd used up quite a bit of chakra already. And Jiraiya had a valid reason not to pursue, with Sasuke beaten to a pulp. I don't think you can really draw any conclusions either way.
Sasuke wasn't important to Jiraiya, what was important was the elimination of any threats to Naruto which was the responsability of the Sannins. Jiraiya told Itachi and Kisame that he was going to kill them and he didn't. He could have go after them to destroy future threats from them but he didn't, why? If people are going to say that Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi because he abandoned the mission (for which he had a good reason) then what was Jiraiya's excuse for not following them. Don't tell me, he didn't followed them because he was protecting Naruto because he would have protected Naruto by killing them, by eliminating future threats to Naruto, thus protecting him. Not to mentioned that Itachi was tired, an easy way to killed him. The reason for not following them, he was bitting more than he could chew.
__________________
Sasuke:"My dreams are not in the future"
"My dreams are in the past... and nowhere else"
Last of the Uchiha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 19:52   Link #232
Zek
Eyebrows...
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 27
Jiraiya didn't follow them because by the time he had sealed the flames, they were long gone.
Zek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 19:55   Link #233
Last of the Uchiha
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zek
Jiraiya didn't follow them because by the time he had sealed the flames, they were long gone.

Zek. Come on, do you honestly think that was an excuse for Jiraiya.
__________________
Sasuke:"My dreams are not in the future"
"My dreams are in the past... and nowhere else"
Last of the Uchiha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 20:12   Link #234
Hunter
Bubbly and super fun
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbrother
You didn't say it the other way around. You answered why the sannin are so powerful at 50 with "because they are the legendary sannin." That does not answer the question of why they are able to maintain enormous chakra and ability at such an age. Your claim that they are strong now because they were stronger then is a load of crap, shinobi don't reach 25 and say "ok, I'm at my prime, now I'm going to stop learning new and more powerful jutsu because I'm at my prime." The strength of a shinobi is a continual process which depends on what their stamina, what jutsu they know, and other physical abilities. While the speed and strength may decline, the chakra remains relatively constant and the knowledge of jutsu increases.
Deal with your understanding problem, why are they so strong in their 50? Yeah because they're the Sannin, ie among the strongest human being on Earth.
The were strong and there are still strong, you call that a load of crap?
I still wait for an other argument than they're strong because they're old which I wouldn't even call a load of crap because it would be an understatement.

By definition being in your prime means the best physical and mental state, the ideal peak of your condition.
And neither the strength nor the capacity to learn is a continual process.
You say that chakra remains constant with age? It's proved wrong by the state of Sarutobi.
The Sannin aren't in this state yet because there 18 years younger than him.
What do you think? That oldness suddenly appears out of no-where?
That at 55 years you haven't lose a little bit of stamina/chakra then suddenly at 56 oh no! I'm old.

Try to think, aging is a slow process taking... Years.
Incredible isn't it?

Quote:
You are continually missing the point. Ninja abilities are bound by much more than their physical ability alone, that being their intellect and jutsu knowledge. They are in a sense part-athlete, part-martial artist and part-spell caster. It takes no physical speed or strength to sit back and move my hands really fast and overwhelm a younger, healthier shinobi who doesn't have the jutsu to compete.
I'm not missing your point, that's precisely why I say you're wrong.
And for the 3rd time, intellect doesn't increase with age.
When the spell you cast are alimented by your stamina, you better should have a good physical condition, and if you sit back on your ass during a fight you're pretty much dead.

Oh yeah and about moving your hands, ever heard of arthritis?

Quote:
Let's say a shinobi john learns Katon super fireball at 25, then learns Katon grand fireball at 35, then learns Katon ultimate fireball at 45. John is strongest at 45, why? Because he has learned better and more capable jutsu, regardless of his waning physical strength and speed.
That's a bullshit Macbrother, it's not even an argument as much as it's stupid.
I can say that John was stronger at 25 because with his better speed and stamina he can use properly his jutsu and avoid the bigger jutsu of his older self.

I can say anything actually because there is nothing about 'John'.
Amount of jutsu is important because it allows to react to any kind of situation and any kind of Ninja, that's one of the advantage of the Sharingan btw.
But it's not enough alone to make strength or the Uchiha would have been the absolute rulers of the world.

Quote:
His chakra is remaining reasonably constant because the increase in his traning and experience are balancing out the decrease his physical energy. That seems to me a reasonable explanation as to why sannin retain their enormous chakras even at 50. Yes, this example is contrived but the point remains, time allows for learning and creation of better jutsu which can make a better shinobi, period.
And that's a bullshit, did you see Tsunade training? or Jiraiya? or the 3rd?
There aren't children who haves basically nothing to do but training with an adult to teach and train them anymore.
If they want a new jutsu they're most likely to create them, Rasengan = 3 years for a genius like the 4th.

And yeah right, if Gai learns a better kick by killing the Boss of the dungeon, it will be better even with less strength and speed

Quote:
Because that's ridiculously unlikely. To create and master such a jutsu he would've surely needed test subjects (sacrifices) along with a huge amount of time; anbu and chuunin weren't disappearing until shortly before he left (at 35+?) and he was still doing missions for the village and such.
It's much more likely he learned this in his later years, along with his immortality jutsu after and during the time he fled the village, where he could work on it alone, in private, and with as many randomm people he liked.
Pay more attention, Oro didn't create the Edo Tensei it's a taboo jutsu, the 2nd was even impressed that Oro was able to use it.

Quote:
Don't try to evade the question either, it's painfully obvious the Orochimaru of now would lay waste to the Orochimaru of 25, his shit would no doubt be in ruins, he no doubt has a much more vast arsenal of ninjutsu than he did at 25.
It's certainely not 'painfully obvious', the Oro of now is in his prime like when he was 25 years younger.
He's not even in his current body.

Quote:
Whether he was referring to that specific technique or that he could kill Oro overall 10 years ago, we don't know, but it's irrelavent. Let's just replace 10 with 13, not like it matters. So at 54 he could've still defeated him, my point remains.
Your point doesn't remain at all for the same reason than before and each time you take Sarutobi as an example : yeah at 54 years the 3rd was incredibly strong.
So he was even more the year before, and the year before, and the year before, and...
The only point remaining is that the God of the Shinobi is strong, what a discovery really.

Quote:
It's young compared to 50. Yes, the sannin were legendary when they were in their twenties, as was Yondaime. Again, we're not talking about 'legendary' so bringing up the sannin, are meaningless. We're talking about "best of all time", that's a step up from legendary, you agree? Good, now, the point is, was he called "best of all time" at 25, and I think that's pretty unlikely.
And 50 is young compared to 70 which is young compared to 100 blahblahblah.
And no I certainely don't agree because it's utterly stupid, there are no 'step' such as legendary then best of all time then living god then congrat you finished the game at 100%

There is not a time comparison between legendary and strongest ever.
At the moment you showed a level of strength that nobody ever had before then you're the strongest ever and you will remain the strongest ever until someone shows an even greater strength, whatever your age.

Quote:
The point of me using Sarutobi was that we are not just talking about legendary, we are talking about "best of all time." Yondaime did not have the time Sarutobi did to build up that kind of legend, which is what I said.
Same as above.

Quote:
Right, so creating the arguably the most powerful jutsu in existance, creating the Rasengan, along with overcoming Kyuubi all at the "young" age of 25 doesn't lend any credence to the fact that Yondaime "probably" would've been the greatest of all time had he more time to create new jutsu and tackle more problems. Uh huh.
No, not imposible but not more particulary probable either.
Not more than an other legendary guy who created a jutsu to live forever for example.
Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 21:01   Link #235
Macbrother
The mac
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Carolina
Send a message via AIM to Macbrother
Quote:
Deal with your understanding problem, why are they so strong in their 50? Yeah because they're the Sannin, ie among the strongest human being on Earth.
The were strong and there are still strong, you call that a load of crap?
I still wait for an other argument than they're strong because they're old which I wouldn't even call a load of crap because it would be an understatement.
I never said they were strong because they were old, I reasoned they were still strong at that age due to whatever new jutsu they learned or created during their age along with the experience/training involved in creation of those jutsu which seems to balance out the loss of physical stamina. That's more of an explanation than "they're strong now because they were really strong then," because firstly we have no clue of their actual strength comparisons between then and now.

Quote:
And neither the strength nor the capacity to learn is a continual process.
You say that chakra remains constant with age? It's proved wrong by the state of Sarutobi.
The Sannin aren't in this state yet because there 18 years younger than him.
What do you think? That oldness suddenly appears out of no-where?
That at 55 years you haven't lose a little bit of stamina/chakra then suddenly at 56 oh no! I'm old. Try to think, aging is a slow process taking... Years.
Incredible isn't it?
Of course strength is a continual process, you think only 25-year old weight lifters win championships? Of course not, physical training over time can increase strength despite the affects of old-age, for a time. Similarly with shinobi except even more-so. As for the oldness "appearing out of no-where," I never claimed that either. I claimed only what I see, that being the sannin still have enormous strength at 50 whereas Sarutobi at 67 is dealing with his age heavily.

Quote:
I'm not missing your point, that's precisely why I say you're wrong.
And for the 3rd time, intellect doesn't increase with age.
When the spell you cast are alimented by your stamina, you better should have a good physical condition, and if you sit back on your ass during a fight you're pretty much dead.
Intellect, i.e., you're ability to learn doesn't increase, no. What does increase is wisdom, knowledge, experience, which can easily more than make up the difference in age. As for the slightly less stamina, again, that's irrelavent as long as you have the amount needed to do the jutsu you require.

Quote:
Oh yeah and about moving your hands, ever heard of arthritis?
Surely they have an aspirin equivalent :P

Quote:
That's a bullshit Macbrother, it's not even an argument as much as it's stupid.
I can say that John was stronger at 25 because with his better speed and stamina he can use properly his jutsu and avoid the bigger jutsu of his older self.

I can say anything actually because there is nothing about 'John'.
Amount of jutsu is important because it allows to react to any kind of situation and any kind of Ninja, that's one of the advantage of the Sharingan btw.
But it's not enough alone to make strength or the Uchiha would have been the absolute rulers of the world.
Blatantly missing the point here. The example is to show that increased jutsu knowledge can easily overwhelm the strength of youth. We're not talking about 'amount' of jutsu, we're talking about 'strength' of jutsu, e.g., A-rank versus C-rank. John at 25 is young and fast but only knows a handful of lesser-rank jutsu, where John at 45 has had time to learn and master much better A-rank jutsu, it's likely the 45 year-old John is going to have jutsu that the 25 year-old cannot handle, regardless of his physical capacity. If I make the technique genjutsu, it becomes even more glaringly obvious, what could the 25 year-old who knows much less jutsu with far less experience do against a high-level genjutsu? Again, the overall point being age allows for time to learn more and stronger jutsu than you would have in your arsenal were you younger.

Quote:
And that's a bullshit, did you see Tsunade training? or Jiraiya? or the 3rd?
There aren't children who haves basically nothing to do but training with an adult to teach and train them anymore.
If they want a new jutsu they're most likely to create them, Rasengan = 3 years for a genius like the 4th.

And yeah right, if Gai learns a better kick by killing the Boss of the dungeon, it will be better even with less strength and spee
Of course we didn't see any of them training, we didn't see anything from their lives between 25 and 50, we don't know what they were doing during that time. Tsunade certainly at some point molded chakra over a long time period and developed Souzou Saisei and we don't know what if any jutsu Jiraiya developed during that time period. All we do know is that they still retain ridiculously high amounts of chakra. As for Gai, again, what's he gonna do, reach 25 and say "ok, training time's over! It's all downhill from here." No, of course not, you throw around 'stupid' alot but do you really sit back and see some of the stuff you put out?

Quote:
Pay more attention, Oro didn't create the Edo Tensei it's a taboo jutsu, the 2nd was even impressed that Oro was able to use it.
Yes he was, that doesn't imply Oro didn't create it. He said "Edo Tensei, eh? So this kid summoned us with a kinjutsu?" Sounds to me like this was the first time he'd heard of it. Regardless, whether he created it or simply learned it is completely beside the point, the point is to master such a jutsu he would've needed time + sacrifices, something highly unlikely to be done at 25 while he was still very much active as a Konoha shinobi with zero reports of missing people.

Quote:
It's certainely not 'painfully obvious', the Oro of now is in his prime like when he was 25 years younger.
He's not even in his current body.
lol, I already established 'assume for a minute oro was in his old body.' Even being a 50 year old he still has massive chakra along with whatever new jutsu he created/learned including Edo Tensei which the 25 year old didn't have. If you seriously think a 25 year-old Oro could defeat a 50 year old Oro who has every single jutsu and much more powerful ones you've gotta be kidding me.

Quote:
Your point doesn't remain at all for the same reason than before and each time you take Sarutobi as an example : yeah at 54 years the 3rd was incredibly strong.
So he was even more the year before, and the year before, and the year before, and...
The only point remaining is that the God of the Shinobi is strong, what a discovery really.
The point here is that a 50ish Sarutobi still had enormous strength and ability, enough to defeat Orochimaru. Meaning, at 50 shinobi apparently still retain most of their ability. Saying "oh he just really way stronger when he was 25, so even losing alot of that he's still really strong" is a statement of ignorance. You don't know how strong he was at 25 nor what jutsu he had, and therefore cannot make that statement (at least not to prove a point, anyway).

Quote:
And no I certainely don't agree because it's utterly stupid, there are no 'step' such as legendary then best of all time then living god then congrat you finished the game at 100%

There is not a time comparison between legendary and strongest ever.
At the moment you showed a level of strength that nobody ever had before then you're the strongest ever and you will remain the strongest ever until someone shows an even greater strength, whatever your age.
lol? You don't agree that 'god of the shinobi' is a greater title than legendary? haha, then what are we arguing for? If that's the case, all we can assume is that all sannin, yondaime, sandaime, etc etc were all equal. And yes, the 'moment' you showed a level of strength that nobody ever had before.' Key point, you do not know when that moment was. Quite honestly, I'd be very interested to hear what moment Sarutobi had that could've surpassed the sealing of Kyuubi.

Quote:
Not more than an other legendary guy who created a jutsu to live forever for example
Right, so a jutsu which is the ultimate trump card in Naruto and can defeat the ultimate being in Naruto is on equal level with Oro's immortality jutsu, which doesn't even grant immortality but possible eternal youth? We merely have a difference of opinion here, then.
__________________
You tame a dog with food. You tame a man with money. But there is nothing that can tame a miburo. -- Hajime Saito
Macbrother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 22:53   Link #236
Ke0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In My cubicle
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to Ke0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha
Mine said that Jiraiya might be a match for the # 1 of the Leaf and one of the mist seven shinobi nothing else. All the dialogue concerning Jiraiya was said by Kisame not Itachi, and in a couple of ocassion Kisame said that Itachi could take Jiraiya alone. Don't look at the anime for evidence because the anime is based on the manga, you should know that by now.
As I just said, this isn't your translation rules all, who said anything about basing this on the anime.........oh wait..........no one did




Quote:
Actually, i'm not wrong. Sarutobi the greatest Hokage of all time said that Orochimaru was a shinobi that came once in a decade and wanted him to be his successor, before the Fourth took the mantle. He wanted Orochimaru to be Hokage so bad that that he let him free after all the killing he made. I wasn't questioning that the Third was the strongest in his prime but still was considered the strongets of the five Hokages and the facts that Orochimaru killed the Hokage and the Kazekage. Orochimaru do measure strength by how many jutsus you know, but also by overall strength. Kakashi rival the Third on jutsus and Kakashi is a bug in front of Orochimaru. Orochimaru is the strongest od the Sannin, and he said that Itachi was stronger than him. If Orochimaru is a shinobi that comes once in a decade, Itachi is a shinobi who come once in a century. They are both geniuses but its clear who is the most genius.
Actually you are wrong, nowhere in the manga does it say how many jutsu Sarutobi knows, so how do you come to the conclusion that Kakashi knows just as much as Sarutobi? The only thing I know about Sarutobi is he has atleast 1000, seeing as that's the pre-requiste for becoming Hokage, but I'm sure Sarutobi knows much much more.

Where does it say Itachi is a genius that comes once a century? For a 22 year old, your logic isn't past the 9 year old level. They were statements to put emphasize on how much more amazing they are than normal Ninja. Don't use them as an actual comparison.




Quote:
I'm not joking! Jiraiya was talking big in how he was going to killed Itachi and Kisame but when he saw what was left of Amaterasu he chicken out. If he was so determine to kill those who would harm Naruto why didn't he chase after them and killed them as he said so. He would have gotten rid off the thrat once and for all. Itachi had an excuse to abandon the mission because he was tired, not to mentioned that Kisame thought Itachi could still fight Jiraiya and win. But what's Jiraiya excuse for not following them. Exactly!
Because Jiraiya might die, then who would train Naruto? The threat still wouldn't be over if he killed Itachi and Kisame, seeing as there are more members of the organization. Who could still go after Naruto. So how exactly would the threat be over?...................Oh wait............it wouldn't, and there wouldn't be anyone to protect Naruto





Quote:
If you notice the hand and look at Orochimaru position, you can see there is more space below but they only showed the hand.
Exactly my point, they only show the hand, quit assuming so much.
Quote:
The case is, Body or hand, that's what was left of Orochimaru original body.
While it could be from his original body..........do you know for sure.......Ohhhh wait a minute........you don't. Again assuming.
Quote:
Why do you think the author decided to show us Orochiamru telling us that the reason he left the organization was because Itachi was stronger than him and then decides to show us what was left of his body. Obviously he fought Itachi so he could take his body, but lost and that's why he he said Itachi is stronger and then show us what was left of his body. That's logic
No, that's your logic, and your logic is pretty much horrible. Again you assume (no suprise there) and you try to use your assumptions as fact. To me, seems they tried to focus on that nice ring on the hand, you know the same ring Itachi has. Then he says why he left the organization. Itachi is stronger than him.
While it's possible they did fight, the fact is............we don't know



Quote:
Read what i posted above.
No read mine





Quote:
Then, you clearly haven't read anything that has been said about the Uchihas and Sasuke. Read the whole series again(especially the all Uchihas parts, as many Naruto's fans don't read them at all. I'm not saying that you are one) and then tell me that.
It could be because I don't have Uchiha googles on, so I'm reading the truth. So far the only thing they've said about the Uchiha is they are an amazing clan, got owned in a night, produce some genius ninja. Sasuke is a genius, and he is a amazing student. So how do you deduce that he is meant to be the greatest Ninja ever? Uchiha Fanboy assumptions do not equal fact.

I mean using that logic, I guess Neji will become the greatest ninja before Sasuke will because he's more of a genius than Sasuke, and is stronger.
Ke0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-22, 23:42   Link #237
Last of the Uchiha
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ke0
As I just said, this isn't your translation rules all, who said anything about basing this on the anime.........oh wait..........no one did
So your trans;atin must be coorect one, i guess. I only mentioned the anime to know if you were gwtting your facts from there.


Quote:
Actually you are wrong, nowhere in the manga does it say how many jutsu Sarutobi knows, so how do you come to the conclusion that Kakashi knows just as much as Sarutobi? The only thing I know about Sarutobi is he has atleast 1000, seeing as that's the pre-requiste for becoming Hokage, but I'm sure Sarutobi knows much much more.
I was using that as an example, because you said that Orochimaru only measure strength by how many jutsus you know. I used Kakashi who has a more than 1000 jutsus, and still isn't more stronger than Orochimaru, he is a bug in front of him. You said that Orochimaru thinks that Itachi is more powerful than him because he knows more jutsus, which it is'n entirely true. Itachi may know as many jutsus as Kakkashi but its his overall abilities that makes him stronger than Orochimaru.


Quote:
Where does it say Itachi is a genius that comes once a century? For a 22 year old, your logic isn't past the 9 year old level. They were statements to put emphasize on how much more amazing they are than normal Ninja. Don't use them as an actual comparison.
I was saying if Orochimaru was considered a shinobi that came once in a decade, then Itachi must be a shinobi that came once in a century. The Itachi part was mine. I never said that it was stated in the manga.


Quote:
Because Jiraiya might die, then who would train Naruto? The threat still wouldn't be over if he killed Itachi and Kisame, seeing as there are more members of the organization. Who could still go after Naruto. So how exactly would the threat be over?...................Oh wait............it wouldn't, and there wouldn't be anyone to protect Naruto
Pure bullshit and you know that. He could have taken care off them in that instant as he said he would, but didn't. By elimating two members of the Akatsuki, it would have taken a toll on that Oroganization, since Itachi seem to be the strongest member, that Orochimaru had to leave the organization because of it. There were no enemies around that could have killed or kidnaped Naruto, except for Itachi and Kisame that Jiraiya would have been fighting. Let face it, Jiraiya could have killed Kisame easily, and Itachi was tired as hell, which he lost the perfect opportunity to killed them both. Why didn't he followed them, because he was bitting more than he could chew. Once he saw Amaterasu, he knew what he was getting into.



Quote:
Exactly my point, they only show the hand, quit assuming so much.

While it could be from his original body..........do you know for sure.......Ohhhh wait a minute........you don't. Again assuming.
If you read that entire page, and look how

Quote:
No, that's your logic, and your logic is pretty much horrible. Again you assume (no suprise there) and you try to use your assumptions as fact. To me, seems they tried to focus on that nice ring on the hand, you know the same ring Itachi has. Then he says why he left the organization. Itachi is stronger than him.
While it's possible they did fight, the fact is............we don't know
Well, almost all of my assumption has turned into facts regarding the Uchiha clan.

-That Itachi's sharingan evolved.

- The scroll of the uchiha cointained the secret of the mangekyou sharinagn.

- I don't remember the other one, there were three for sure.

I'm going to save this post, so when they do show us the fight between those two, i will give you a reminder.


Quote:
No read mine
No, read mine.

Quote:
It could be because I don't have Uchiha googles on, so I'm reading the truth. So far the only thing they've said about the Uchiha is they are an amazing clan, got owned in a night, produce some genius ninja. Sasuke is a genius, and he is a amazing student. So how do you deduce that he is meant to be the greatest Ninja ever? Uchiha Fanboy assumptions do not equal fact.
You know is true what i said, so i won't bother quoting everyone in the series about what they said about the Uchiha clan and Sasuke.



Quote:
I mean using that logic, I guess Neji will become the greatest ninja before Sasuke will because he's more of a genius than Sasuke, and is stronger.
Lets see about that.
__________________
Sasuke:"My dreams are not in the future"
"My dreams are in the past... and nowhere else"
Last of the Uchiha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-23, 01:14   Link #238
Ke0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In My cubicle
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to Ke0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha
So your trans;atin must be coorect one, i guess. I only mentioned the anime to know if you were gwtting your facts from there.
No mine may not be 100 correct, but if my translation and other manga have the same thing, yet only your translation has something else.........who's more likely to be correct? It's common sense m8



Quote:
I was using that as an example, because you said that Orochimaru only measure strength by how many jutsus you know. I used Kakashi who has a more than 1000 jutsus, and still isn't more stronger than Orochimaru, he is a bug in front of him. You said that Orochimaru thinks that Itachi is more powerful than him because he knows more jutsus, which it is'n entirely true. Itachi may know as many jutsus as Kakkashi but its his overall abilities that makes him stronger than Orochimaru.
Yes, but then again. I'm pretty sure Orochimaru has more than 1000 jutsu seeing as it's a pre-requiste to becoming Hokage. Then add in he experiments 24/7 yes I think he has a crap load more than Kakashi. So of course Kakashi is a bug infront of Orochimaru. Seeing as Orochimaru goes into a long detailed speech about strength, and his number one point is jutsu, jutsu, and more jutsu.




Quote:
I was saying if Orochimaru was considered a shinobi that came once in a decade, then Itachi must be a shinobi that came once in a century. The Itachi part was mine. I never said that it was stated in the manga.
While that's ok, you tried to push it as a fact, which is not ok




Quote:
Pure bullshit and you know that. He could have taken care off them in that instant as he said he would, but didn't. By elimating two members of the Akatsuki, it would have taken a toll on that Oroganization, since Itachi seem to be the strongest member, that Orochimaru had to leave the organization because of it. There were no enemies around that could have killed or kidnaped Naruto, except for Itachi and Kisame that Jiraiya would have been fighting. Let face it, Jiraiya could have killed Kisame easily, and Itachi was tired as hell, which he lost the perfect opportunity to killed them both. Why didn't he followed them, because he was bitting more than he could chew. Once he saw Amaterasu, he knew what he was getting into.
Again you love to assume, there are asses in assume you know. Like I said, At best Jiraiya will die killing Kisame and Itachi. But what will that accomplish? Nine Tails is one of the most entities in Japanese mythology/Naruto world. (Forgot name) Organization collects rare and powerful jutsu/creatures, enitites. So if Jiraiya does die in his fight killing Itachi and Kisame. He still has Orochimaru who wants Naruto dead, aswell as 6 other members of the organization who can go after kyuubi. So why risk it if your main job is to protect Naruto?.........exactly.

No it is not shown that Itachi is the strongest one. It's show he was a threat to Orochimaru. Orochimaru isn't the kind of person who would join a organization full of people weaker than him, and he was most likely in it before Itachi. So I'm guessing that there are some very strong people in the Organization, nowhere does it even remotely hint that Itachi is the strongest memeber, that's something you assumed and labeled as fact.





Quote:
If you read that entire page, and look how
Or you can show it to me, because I see something different from what your spewing



Quote:
Well, almost all of my assumption has turned into facts regarding the Uchiha clan.

-That Itachi's sharingan evolved.
Hah, we all knew it was an evolved Sharingan, you were the one talking about because the Uchiha decend from the Hyuuga, so don't even try that crap.

Quote:
The scroll of the uchiha cointained the secret of the mangekyou sharinagn.
Actually all you ever said was the scroll has a part to play later on. Which was true

Quote:
I don't remember the other one, there were three for sure.
There was no other one

Quote:
I'm going to save this post, so when they do show us the fight between those two, i will give you a reminder.
Looking forward to your apology




Quote:
No, read mine.
I can't because it shows a clear bias, and made up facts based on your biased opinion.



Quote:
You know is true what i said, so i won't bother quoting everyone in the series about what they said about the Uchiha clan and Sasuke.
Actually what you said is just pure biased BS. Seeing as every other character introduced after Sasuke has shown to be stronger, and more talented and some more of a genius than him. Besides I love how you dodged the question.




Quote:
Lets see about that.
It's already been shown
Ke0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-23, 02:17   Link #239
raikage
日本語を食べません!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 31
This thread hurts my head.
(Hey, that rhymed!)

So, there's two discussions going on right now, I think...?

One about how a ninja's age corresponds to power level relative to the ninja's own lifetime.

Another about the validity of various translations. At least this one seems to focus a bit more on Orochimaru vs Itachi - as though these two are the only ones in the running for 'best ninja ever'.

Well, let me add my two cents in one at a time.

Age:

Every single person hits a physical peak in life. This physical peak is almost always before the age of 30. This is (I think) generally true in real life, and there is absolutely no reason why we can't say the same thing about these people in the Naruto universe.

So, as far as taijutsu specialists like Gai and Neji go, we can safely say that a 60-year old Gai will not be as physically able as a 25-year old Gai. Older Gai will not be as muscular, would probably also be slower.

If we assume that both Gai's in question are of the same skill level (that is, older Gai has no more experience/training than younger Gai) then all else being equal young Gai has a greater chance to win.

But experience and training do play a role. A huge role that we would be foolish to ignore. When these factors are considered, then the outcome is not so clear. Hell, I'm not going to hazard a guess at who wins. Can a thirty-year old kung fu master beat a sixty-year old master? Who knows? Certainly not me.

With this in mind, we move to ninjutsu/genjutsu users. Like Macbrother said, in this aspect ninjutsu is more like magic. The practionicers of these jutsus are more along the lines of sorcerers than track runners. In fiction (since there are, to my knowledge, no established and credible decent amount of spellcasters in the real world) the best magicians are the older, wiser ones. The ones with more experience and training. So, in this form, physical prowess plays almost no role in the effectiveness of the person.

How are these magicians different from the shinobi in Naruto? Probably the difference most relevant here is that all power must be generated from within the user, rather than pulled from an external source. Your effectiveness as a ninja in all aspects (nin, tai, gen) are directly correlated with your physical ability.

Yes, as you age your pure physical ability/potential will generally decrease. Hopefully we can at least agree on this. The question here, to me, seems to be 'can the loss in strength be offset by experience and training' which, of course, will vary from person to person. Personally I believe that the Sannin are not as strong as they were in their late 30's (due to their aging AND somewhat neglected skills in Tsunade and Jiraiya), but I can easily see why someone might claim that they are just as dangerous now as they ever were.

Oro is probably as dangerous now as he ever was. As a ninjutsu specialist, his abilities diminish far less with age. He can compensate for the loss in physical strength with new techniques, experience, and possibly being able to mold/utilize his remaining chakra more efficently - much like Naruto is learning to do. And, of course, he has recently gotten rid of that nasty 'aging' problem.

Itachi vs Orochimaru:
I see Itachi as the sprinter, and Oro as more of a long-distance runner. Itachi has only one or two jutsus that Oro cannot handle, but these jutsus (and most jutsus we've seen him use so far) leave him winded/take a large percentage of his power. If Oro can get through these one or two jutsus, then he's in a much better position to beat a now-tired Itachi. The longer the fight goes, the better Oro's chances are.

Itachi vs Oro vs Jiraiya:
Rock-Paper-Scissors. Simple as that. Itachi is the WORST possible match for Orochimaru, since all Oro has are jutsus. No real hand-to-hand combat to brag about. Jiraiya is pushed as having an almost-unbreakable spirit like Naruto, which might leave him in better shape after a trip through the Mangekyou if he gets trapped. Jiraiya thinks on his feet, compensating for the situation, which may just make the difference if he, like I said about Oro, can avoid the big-gun attacks Itachi uses.
raikage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-23, 02:40   Link #240
Voltage
若い雷
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Los Angeles, California
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to Voltage
hmm, I've always thought that they were a rock-scissors-type matchup. Everyone's got flaws and weaknesses.
Voltage is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.