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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-08-24, 09:37   Link #261
itachistyle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rorosama
I say sarutobi. He was trained by the 1st and 2nd hokage! He was called the professor for his jutsu knowlege. I thought it was said in the anime or manga that he was the strongest ninja in his prime anyway. Itachi comes in a close second and may surpass saratobi. We know nothing of the 4th. I'm surprised so many voted for him.

i ll probably shoke many saying that but i think that from what we know until now about him, the 4 th is a bit overrated
make no mistake, i think he was an awesome ninja (probably the best hokage ever after sarutobi,also he created rasengan and he could summon gamabunta) but in my opinion he gets too many credit for having sealed kyubi.
i mean of course ,it s obvious that not many people can do that cause kyubi is the strongest youma but still you must admit that it was a suicidal attack cause immediatly after it,he lost his life.
and if you consider that, then by example lee too can completely kick the ass of itachi with the suicidal lotus attack.but at what cost??
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Old 2004-08-24, 10:50   Link #262
Animizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itachistyle
and if you consider that, then by example lee too can completely kick the ass of itachi with the suicidal lotus attack.but at what cost??
I get yor point..still dunn think Lee would be able to kill Itachi with all Celestial gates but that's another point of discussion.

Think the strenght of the 4th can very well be deducted form the sealing of the kyuubi. You try and hold a 100 feet tall fox while sucking out his soul
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Old 2004-08-24, 10:59   Link #263
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Jiraya!!!
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Old 2004-08-24, 12:03   Link #264
stylez
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4th had help ferom Gamabunta while he used the seal, so i guess Gama-san holded Kyubi while 4th sealed him=)
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Old 2004-08-24, 12:05   Link #265
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Originally Posted by stylez
4th had help ferom Gamabunta while he used the seal, so i guess Gama-san holded Kyubi while 4th sealed him=)
he did? oh...
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Old 2004-08-24, 12:09   Link #266
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Well im not sure that Gamabunta holds Kyubi, but it was the most logically explenation i cold get in mind since Gamabunta helped the 4th=) The 4th was and are still the only one Gamabunta fully trusted, and was his leader.
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Old 2004-08-24, 13:21   Link #267
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The strongest is undoubtedly KONOHOMARU THE GREAT, NINJA MASTER OF THE CAMOFLAGUE BLANKET OF UBER OWNAGE!
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Old 2004-08-24, 13:23   Link #268
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Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
The strongest is undoubtedly KONOHOMARU THE GREAT, NINJA MASTER OF THE CAMOFLAGUE BLANKET OF UBER OWNAGE!
It seems that you were finally fed up with all those serious replies
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Old 2004-08-24, 15:54   Link #269
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itachistyle
once again,read attentively what i wrote (especially when i said "at another level")
i don t pretend that it s SURE that itachi is as good in taijutsu as a gai , it would be stupid from me cause we haven t see many taijutsu by itachi but i would like to ask you one thing:why what happened at genin level(sasuke being as good as lee in taijutsu in just one month i repeat,just ONE month) would have absolutely no chance to happen at jounin level??(it s obvious that gai is a lot better in taijutsu than lee but admit too that it s even more obvious that itachi is way more talented than sasuke so...)

don t forget one thing about itachi:he seems to be a perfectionnist and he also desperately wants to be stronger and stronger so it s not impossible that he wants to be the best possible in all areas(ninjutsu, taijutsu,genjutsu,etc...) although i agree , it s really difficult to be the best in everything especially if you have ninjas who are only specialised and who only train in one thing(gai or lee in taijutsu) but eh precisely, it s here where the sharingan (or even better the mangekyo)can be a decisive factor cause it can copy many things. and if in addition,the sharingan user is a genious then....

it s the contrary for me:i think it would make him even more bad-ass!! lol
i would love him to not have any summon,it would prove that he doesn t need the help of some big creatures or other things to be that bad ass and beat the crap of oro or the others senins,he does it only by himself!
What happened at the Genin level that could not happen at the Jounin level? A coach. Kakashi tutored Sasuke and trained him to gain that speed.

Time to rehash one of my oldest arguments: Sasuke did not Sharingan-copy Lee's fighting style. Tell me when he did. The ONLY time Sasuke has seen Lee fight is when he got his *ss kicked in two minutes: the upward kick and Leaf Shadow Dance. At every other time we've seen Lee fight, Sasuke was either not there or unconscious: Forest of Death - unconscious and recovering from Curse Seal. Prelims - Sasuke fought first and was whisked away before he could see anyone else fight, including Lee. The end.

So yes, Kakashi did train Sasuke in taijutsu. Kakashi also had a compelling reason to teach taijutsu - genjutsu might not work well against Gaara (his shield would still protect him from physical harm anyway) and ninjutsu would be terribly ineffective. Quick taijutsu seemed to work against Gaara and that is why he learned it.

Without the same compelling reason for Itachi, and without someone to teach him (or at least we don't know if someone taught him) then I wouldn't say he's a taijutsu expert. And once again I don't take 'well Sasuke is good so Itachi must be better' as an argument.

So, in short: There is nothing saying that he can't be as good as Gai. There is ALSO nothing saying anything about his being as good as Gai. Nothing either way.

Yes, he could be building up his taijutsu since that would generally be a Sharingan user's weakest point. There is also every possibility that he is building up his strengths to compensate for his weaknesses.
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Old 2004-08-25, 02:08   Link #270
mungchung
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4th Hokage

I think there are hints throughout that the 4th was a frightingly powerful ninja.

As some have mentioned, comments by Anko to the 3rd, the nuance in how the 3rd had to avoid the 4th being summoned by Oro at all costs, etc.

The techniques of the 4th that we've been show have been on a different level- especially the one to seal Kyubi.

Wasn't Kyubi supposed to have attacked Konoha continually over many years? I recall statements to the effect that this was not the very first time Kyubi had attacked. Why had no other ninja been able to permanantly incapcitate Kyubi? From all reports, the best they had managed to do before was temporarily drive it off.

From the first between Oro and the 3rd, the technique appears to require direct contact and the incapacitation of the "victim". How the 4th managed to do so to a legendary demon, who with a wave of its tail could shatter mountains, its on a different level. Its a different order of magnitude than even Shukaku who Gamabunta was unable to handle.
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Old 2004-08-25, 03:41   Link #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mungchung
From the first between Oro and the 3rd, the technique appears to require direct contact and the incapacitation of the "victim". How the 4th managed to do so to a legendary demon, who with a wave of its tail could shatter mountains, its on a different level. Its a different order of magnitude than even Shukaku who Gamabunta was unable to handle.
I'll bet he did a combo henge with Gamabunta, and that's why Gamabunta thought of that when he was fighting Shukaku with Naruto.
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Old 2004-08-25, 03:50   Link #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadamehr
I'll bet he did a combo henge with Gamabunta, and that's why Gamabunta thought of that when he was fighting Shukaku with Naruto.
hmm that would have been a great fight to see. as a side note, i was wondering if people couldnt use summons to increase their own chakra, as it seems that you can draw on the chakra of another if they alow it to perform techniques. if only rock could summon one he could have infinite chakra
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Old 2004-08-25, 13:59   Link #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbrother
I never said they were strong because they were old, I reasoned they were still strong at that age due to whatever new jutsu they learned or created during their age along with the experience/training involved in creation of those jutsu which seems to balance out the loss of physical stamina. That's more of an explanation than "they're strong now because they were really strong then," because firstly we have no clue of their actual strength comparisons between then and now.
lol yes you did, that was precisely your point, that they were stronger now than before and not that they are still strong which is my point to begin with.
Besides like I said and re-said you take the example of the sannin as a general example for every old ninja which is stupid, regular ninja doesn't create new jutsu, and once they learned those of their clan, it's pretty much finished.

And even for the Sannin, you say that it seems that it balance their loss of physical capacity whereas as you say... we have no clue of their actual strength comparisons between then and now.

Quote:
Of course strength is a continual process, you think only 25-year old weight lifters win championships? Of course not, physical training over time can increase strength despite the affects of old-age, for a time. Similarly with shinobi except even more-so. As for the oldness "appearing out of no-where," I never claimed that either. I claimed only what I see, that being the sannin still have enormous strength at 50 whereas Sarutobi at 67 is dealing with his age heavily.
okey, it's not my duty to fill your ignorance on the effect of degeneration of the human body with age so that you understand that strength isn't a continual process so just inform yourself.

Then yeah the average age of weightlifters champion is around the middle twenty, as the usual average age of athletes in general, 30 max in certain disciplines.
And even near his seventy, Sarutobi was still incredibly impressive and strong and had probably still more chakra than any Jounin.

Quote:
Intellect, i.e., you're ability to learn doesn't increase, no. What does increase is wisdom, knowledge, experience, which can easily more than make up the difference in age. As for the slightly less stamina, again, that's irrelavent as long as you have the amount needed to do the jutsu you require.
Aging doesn't mean that your Wisdom increases either, and neither jutsu knowledge btw.
Once again you act as if the all the regular ninja never stop to learn new jutsu and create some of them.
Ninja aren't all from the Uchiha clan or simply aren't genius.
They're teached the jutsu of their family in their youth and use them all their life.

Their experience increase indeed, and that's why I said that they didn't level down at ~25 because they have the experience of veterans.
And you decided yourself that the loss of stamina is unimportant, if that so, where are the other old ninjas?
They should be the strongest with their huge experience and their 'almost the same' stamina.
So why do we only see young ninja, in their thirty at max except those who're legendary?

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Surely they have an aspirin equivalent :P
Aspirin doesn't heal arthritis anyway, it merely sligtly decreases the pain


Quote:
Blatantly missing the point here. The example is to show that increased jutsu knowledge can easily overwhelm the strength of youth.
I perfectly understood, for god sake stop to assume that people doesn't understand you because they disagree, you used a stupid example based on nothing to make your point, I just said that I can show exactly the opposite with this kind of stuff, ie that this so-called 'John the Shinobi' was stronger at 25 that his older counterpart because the old one wasn't able to hit the younger John with his better jutsu.
There is no point in your 'arguement' we can invent anything about hypothetical ninja.

Quote:
We're not talking about 'amount' of jutsu, we're talking about 'strength' of jutsu, e.g., A-rank versus C-rank. John at 25 is young and fast but only knows a handful of lesser-rank jutsu, where John at 45 has had time to learn and master much better A-rank jutsu, it's likely the 45 year-old John is going to have jutsu that the 25 year-old cannot handle, regardless of his physical capacity. If I make the technique genjutsu, it becomes even more glaringly obvious, what could the 25 year-old who knows much less jutsu with far less experience do against a high-level genjutsu? Again, the overall point being age allows for time to learn more and stronger jutsu than you would have in your arsenal were you younger.
It's even more stupid.
Jutsu that a 25 years old ninja can't handle? Such as? Where did you dreamed that?
Ninja who wouldn't know yet their jutsus in their thirsty? Are you kidding?

You merely affirm that becoming old means to have stronger jutsu, it's nothing but wrong, plain and simple.
There is absolutely no reason for someone having 45 years to have a jutsu that he couldn't handle 20 years ago.

Quote:
Of course we didn't see any of them training, we didn't see anything from their lives between 25 and 50, we don't know what they were doing during that time. Tsunade certainly at some point molded chakra over a long time period and developed Souzou Saisei and we don't know what if any jutsu Jiraiya developed during that time period. All we do know is that they still retain ridiculously high amounts of chakra. As for Gai, again, what's he gonna do, reach 25 and say "ok, training time's over! It's all downhill from here." No, of course not, you throw around 'stupid' alot but do you really sit back and see some of the stuff you put out?
I do, that's why I say your point are stupid.
Gai will not stop training which will allow him to remain really strong for a certain time but he can't stop his body from aging and training or not, his capacities will decrease, it's how life is, dealt with it.
And yeah lol I well imagine Tsunade and Jiraiya hardworking daily to remain as strong as they were, especially Tsunade
Btw where is her experience of battle? She gave up her nindo about 25~30 years ago.

Quote:
Yes he was, that doesn't imply Oro didn't create it. He said "Edo Tensei, eh? So this kid summoned us with a kinjutsu?" Sounds to me like this was the first time he'd heard of it. Regardless, whether he created it or simply learned it is completely beside the point, the point is to master such a jutsu he would've needed time + sacrifices, something highly unlikely to be done at 25 while he was still very much active as a Konoha shinobi with zero reports of missing people.
Seriously try to think because that becomes tiring, it was the 2nd Hokage who said the name of the jutsu and a jutsu can't be taboo if it didn't existed before, you didn't see the 3rd wondered how that was possible either, he immediately understood what was going on.

And no it's absolutely not unlikely that someone like Oro could have learned the Edo Tensei at 25 or even less, it just doesn't fit with your point.

Quote:
lol, I already established 'assume for a minute oro was in his old body.' Even being a 50 year old he still has massive chakra along with whatever new jutsu he created/learned including Edo Tensei which the 25 year old didn't have. If you seriously think a 25 year-old Oro could defeat a 50 year old Oro who has every single jutsu and much more powerful ones you've gotta be kidding me.
Re-read my last 2 answers about that you obviously didn't understand them or worse, understand them but answering beside the point in purpose.

Quote:
The point here is that a 50ish Sarutobi still had enormous strength and ability, enough to defeat Orochimaru. Meaning, at 50 shinobi apparently still retain most of their ability. Saying "oh he just really way stronger when he was 25, so even losing alot of that he's still really strong" is a statement of ignorance. You don't know how strong he was at 25 nor what jutsu he had, and therefore cannot make that statement (at least not to prove a point, anyway).
The point here is that a 70ish Sarutobi still had enormous strength and ability and that doesn't mean that shinobi apparently still retain strong at such an age just how imlpressive Sarutobi is, it's not ignorance, simple logic and fact.

I don't know how strong he was? Neither you, still that doesn't stop you to affirm the opposite.
That's not the first time I saw you saying to someone not to use the same kind of arguement as you do.
You know nothing about their past strenght and that doesn't stop you from discussing of it right now so spare me this kind of crap, thanks.

Quote:
lol? You don't agree that 'god of the shinobi' is a greater title than legendary? haha, then what are we arguing for? If that's the case, all we can assume is that all sannin, yondaime, sandaime, etc etc were all equal. And yes, the 'moment' you showed a level of strength that nobody ever had before.' Key point, you do not know when that moment was. Quite honestly, I'd be very interested to hear what moment Sarutobi had that could've surpassed the sealing of Kyuubi.
That's not what I said and it's annoying to be forced to repeat the same thing again and again to see you answering out of the point each time.

You said that their title is a matter of time and that the 4th hasn't enough time for the reputation that the 3rd had.
It's stupid, the Sannin gained their reputation in their twenty, they still have the same around 30 years ago.

For the 3rd times, to be the strongest shinobi ever just mean that you showed more strength than anybody ever, it can happen at 25 years or at 13 for that matters.
What part of 'no time comparison' didn't you understand?

Besides no the God of Shinobi isn't a greater title than 'legendary' because legendary isn't a title to begin with.
The 3rd was legendary as the God of the Shinobi whereas Jiraiya & co are legendary as the Sanin.

Quote:
Right, so a jutsu which is the ultimate trump card in Naruto and can defeat the ultimate being in Naruto is on equal level with Oro's immortality jutsu, which doesn't even grant immortality but possible eternal youth? We merely have a difference of opinion here, then.
Actually i think that Oro's immortality jutsu is the ultimate trumpcard which can allow to defeat the ultimate 'being'on Earth : the Death.
But yeah merely a difference of perception here.
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Old 2004-08-25, 14:25   Link #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
There is absolutely no reason for someone having 45 years to have a jutsu that he couldn't handle 20 years ago.
"Absolutely no reason" is a dangerous remark.
Just as easy as you assume there is no reason one could assume there is.
For example, as jutsu that requires 45 years of everyday studying..or research for that matter. Or a Jutsu that comes with wrinkly skin, really if you are assuming things like this in the world of naruto, you're well of your mark.
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Old 2004-08-25, 15:05   Link #275
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lol yes you did, that was precisely your point, that they were stronger now than before and not that they are still strong which is my point to begin with.
Besides like I said and re-said you take the example of the sannin as a general example for every old ninja which is stupid, regular ninja doesn't create new jutsu, and once they learned those of their clan, it's pretty much finished.

And even for the Sannin, you say that it seems that it balance their loss of physical capacity whereas as you say... we have no clue of their actual strength comparisons between then and now.
I'm taking the sannin as an example because it's that type of strength we are dealing with. We are not talking about every day ninja, we are talking about Yondaime. And yes, I said it seems to balance their loss of physical capacity because they are still strong. I never implied that as fact, it's inherent to what I said that we don't know their original strength for sure.

Quote:
okey, it's not my duty to fill your ignorance on the effect of degeneration of the human body with age so that you understand that strength isn't a continual process so just inform yourself.
I never said the body didn't degenrate with age. I said physical training offsets it, people who train and stay in shape can retain excellent physical condition well over the age of 30, or even 40. And again, this is just from the physical aspect.

Quote:
Aging doesn't mean that your Wisdom increases either, and neither jutsu knowledge btw.
Once again you act as if the all the regular ninja never stop to learn new jutsu and create some of them.
Ninja aren't all from the Uchiha clan or simply aren't genius.
They're teached the jutsu of their family in their youth and use them all their life.

Their experience increase indeed, and that's why I said that they didn't level down at ~25 because they have the experience of veterans.
And you decided yourself that the loss of stamina is unimportant, if that so, where are the other old ninjas?
They should be the strongest with their huge experience and their 'almost the same' stamina.
So why do we only see young ninja, in their thirty at max except those who're legendary?
lol here you say experience increases but wisdom/jutsu knowledge does not? That's exactly the point of experience,

Quote:
Active participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of knowledge or skill
Here again, you are increasily discussing the general rule for average ninjas. When last I checked, Yondaime wasn't in that category.

Quote:
Jutsu that a 25 years old ninja can't handle? Such as? Where did you dreamed that?
Ninja who wouldn't know yet their jutsus in their thirsty? Are you kidding?

You merely affirm that becoming old means to have stronger jutsu, it's nothing but wrong, plain and simple.
There is absolutely no reason for someone having 45 years to have a jutsu that he couldn't handle 20 years ago.
Except maybe he didn't have the time to learn of it's existence, create it, or master it 20 years ago. A big portion of Sarutobi's 'god of the shinobi' status is the fact that he is the professer, 'knowing every jutsu that exists in Konoha.' Do you think he had everything learned by 25? Please... The point is, learning jutsu takes time, aka like the Rasengan, which took 3 years to master. Who's to say he couldn't create an even more powerful jutsu later? No one, but that's the point, time allows more more learning and mastering of jutsu, which is why typically a 40 year-old should know more than a 20 year-old.

Quote:
Gai will not stop training which will allow him to remain really strong for a certain time but he can't stop his body from aging and training or not, his capacities will decrease, it's how life is, dealt with it.
And yeah lol I well imagine Tsunade and Jiraiya hardworking daily to remain as strong as they were, especially Tsunade
Btw where is her experience of battle? She gave up her nindo about 25~30 years ago.
Who knows, but she still retains enormous chakra, has a (ohmygosh!) better and newer technique which almost makes her unkillable (unless the death is instant) and retains her enormous strength, at 50. That should be reason enough for you to sit back and say "hey, maybe in the world of Naruto, age doesn't effect shinobi quite the same way it does here on the real world", at least not at 50.

Quote:
And no it's absolutely not unlikely that someone like Oro could have learned the Edo Tensei at 25 or even less, it just doesn't fit with your point.
How is it likely he had it learned by 25? I'm sure they keep good tabs on every shinobi, what mission they are on, etc, etc, people don't just start disappearing without any questions ask, and none were apparently asked until he was well over 35 and developing the immortality jutsu. Surely a technique such as Edo Tensei would require bodies to work and practice upon to perfect. It's highly more likely that he perfected this jutsu in his own land, away from Konoha, where he could find bodies without question and develop the jutsu privately. Please show one shred, iota, or example that shows he had created the jutsu by 25, and I'll leave it alone.

Quote:
Re-read my last 2 answers about that you obviously didn't understand them or worse, understand them but answering beside the point in purpose.
Or you are just ignoring the points and shouting "la la la younger shinobi are stronger than older ones." Oro still has his chakra and all of his faculties at the age of 50, even without his immortality jutsu, along with Edo Tensei and whatever else he came up with. I can't fathom any scenario in which a 25-year-old one would defeat him, if you have one, show me.

Quote:
The point here is that a 70ish Sarutobi still had enormous strength and ability and that doesn't mean that shinobi apparently still retain strong at such an age just how imlpressive Sarutobi is, it's not ignorance, simple logic and fact.

I don't know how strong he was? Neither you, still that doesn't stop you to affirm the opposite.
That's not the first time I saw you saying to someone not to use the same kind of arguement as you do.
You know nothing about their past strenght and that doesn't stop you from discussing of it right now so spare me this kind of crap, thanks.
Then provide a counter-example. Show me a legendary ninja who's lost all of his strength by the age of 50. I'm waiting. And I say legendary, because that's the type of people we are talking about. We aren't talking about the old man at the chuunin test, we are talking about what Yondaime would've been like had he gotten older. And when have I used any shinobi's past strength for affirmation? I never used their previous strength as a fact to argue a point. In fact, I have always aluded to the fact that we don't know their original strength, but considering they are still legendary it couldn't have fallen too far. You, on the other hand, are trying to argue they were stronger as fact, which remains unproven.

Quote:
You said that their title is a matter of time and that the 4th hasn't enough time for the reputation that the 3rd had.
It's stupid, the Sannin gained their reputation in their twenty, they still have the same around 30 years ago.

For the 3rd times, to be the strongest shinobi ever just mean that you showed more strength than anybody ever, it can happen at 25 years or at 13 for that matters.
What part of 'no time comparison' didn't you understand?

Besides no the God of Shinobi isn't a greater title than 'legendary' because legendary isn't a title to begin with.
The 3rd was legendary as the God of the Shinobi whereas Jiraiya & co are legendary as the Sanin.
There is obviously a difference between just saying someone is legendary (like the sannin) and claiming someone is the god of the shinobi. If there weren't, you wouldn't take that claim to mean Sarutobi is the greatest of all time, based on that statement. Hopefully we've cleared that up, the difference between someone being 'legendary' and 'best of all time.' Now, my point is, Yondaime, sannin, etc were all legendary in their twenties. Was Sarutobi? We don't know, in fact we don't know when he was labeled with nicknames. My only point here is the Yondaime's time, tenure, and abilities as Hokage were cut short by Kyuubi, where as Sarutobi had much more time, tenure, abilities, and a war to help establish that particular legend.

I never said 'legendary' was a matter of time only, but of course time plays an effect. If Kyuubi had attacked 30 years earlier and killed Sarutobi at the age of 20, it's highly unlikely he would've had the legend that he did, because his life was cut short, the same that happened to Yondaime. Is time the only factor? No, of course not, but time allows for more circumstance/more jutsu/etc/etc which helps to create that legend. I could say the same in our world, had MJ been killed at 25 before any championships, he would've never recieved the recognition has being the best of all time.
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Old 2004-08-25, 17:51   Link #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbrother
I'm taking the sannin as an example because it's that type of strength we are dealing with. We are not talking about every day ninja, we are talking about Yondaime. And yes, I said it seems to balance their loss of physical capacity because they are still strong. I never implied that as fact, it's inherent to what I said that we don't know their original strength for sure.
Don't be ridiculous, we're talking of ninja on a regular basis since the beginning, should I quote every single time where we discussed of the effect of aging on shinobi on general?

And once again from your own word we have no clue of their actual strength comparisons between then and now so you're just assuming that they are as strong as they were, as I do.
That's why we discuss in the first place.

The fact is that being in your prime means that you're at your top condition both physically and mentally, the peak of your life.
And that they're not in their prime anymore.

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I never said the body didn't degenrate with age. I said physical training offsets it, people who train and stay in shape can retain excellent physical condition well over the age of 30, or even 40. And again, this is just from the physical aspect.
And I said in my first or second post that it's why they don't level down like that, but whatever your training, you can maintain your body in excelent condition but simply not as good as when you were young, you need more time to rest your body, you tire more easily, you heal less quickly, etc.

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lol here you say experience increases but wisdom/jutsu knowledge does not? That's exactly the point of experience

Here again, you are increasily discussing the general rule for average ninjas. When last I checked, Yondaime wasn't in that category.
Re-read the definition you gave yourself, where did you read something about wisdom?
And knowledge doesn't mean jutsu knowledge, the fact that you age doesn't mean obligatory that learn more jutsu.

And more generally, if all people learned from their experience the world would be a better place but that doesn't happen often.

Once again I spoke of regular ninja since that's what we do since quite a number of posts now.

If your point is that the 4th is more likely to improve his jutsus then I agree because as I said in a previous post he's a genius.
But don't act like we weren't discussing about the ninja in general.

Btw you didn't even answer half of the part that you quoted.

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Except maybe he didn't have the time to learn of it's existence, create it, or master it 20 years ago. A big portion of Sarutobi's 'god of the shinobi' status is the fact that he is the professer, 'knowing every jutsu that exists in Konoha.' Do you think he had everything learned by 25? Please... The point is, learning jutsu takes time, aka like the Rasengan, which took 3 years to master. Who's to say he couldn't create an even more powerful jutsu later? No one, but that's the point, time allows more more learning and mastering of jutsu, which is why typically a 40 year-old should know more than a 20 year-old.
Same as above.

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Who knows, but she still retains enormous chakra, has a (ohmygosh!) better and newer technique which almost makes her unkillable (unless the death is instant) and retains her enormous strength, at 50. That should be reason enough for you to sit back and say "hey, maybe in the world of Naruto, age doesn't effect shinobi quite the same way it does here on the real world", at least not at 50.
No, that's a reason for me to sit and say "hey Tsunade must be real good to be this strong in a fallen state whereas she abandoned the nindo since so long, ie as it's said in the manga.

And the 3rd had still an enormous strength whereas he was almost 70, still he had lost a huge part of his previous strength.

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How is it likely he had it learned by 25? I'm sure they keep good tabs on every shinobi, what mission they are on, etc, etc, people don't just start disappearing without any questions ask, and none were apparently asked until he was well over 35 and developing the immortality jutsu. Surely a technique such as Edo Tensei would require bodies to work and practice upon to perfect. It's highly more likely that he perfected this jutsu in his own land, away from Konoha, where he could find bodies without question and develop the jutsu privately. Please show one shred, iota, or example that shows he had created the jutsu by 25, and I'll leave it alone.
How is it likely that the 4th create a jutsu summoning the God of Death at 25? Surely a jutsu such as this one would require a lot of practice upon to perfect, I suppose the 4th summoned it before but just said hey it was just for joking this time, see ya!
Please show one shred, iota, or example that shows he had not created the jutsu by 25, and I'll leave it alone.
Besides Oro has plenty of corpses to dispose : those of the enemy ninja, not hard to find in a era of perpetual war.

And I don't know if he knew this jutsu at 25, how could I?
It's just not more unlikely than likely, we just don't know which is my point to begin with.

Oh and should I take the fact that you didn't quoted or answered the point about that Oro didn't create the Edo Tensei like a final agreement about that?

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Or you are just ignoring the points and shouting "la la la younger shinobi are stronger than older ones." Oro still has his chakra and all of his faculties at the age of 50, even without his immortality jutsu, along with Edo Tensei and whatever else he came up with. I can't fathom any scenario in which a 25-year-old one would defeat him, if you have one, show me.
Oro still have his chakra in a new and young body so what's your point about him?
And even if you take Jiraiya as example and for the [i]n[/n]th times we don't know his strenth when he was younger.
And btw which point did I ignore please?

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Then provide a counter-example. Show me a legendary ninja who's lost all of his strength by the age of 50. I'm waiting.
There are no other ninja at this age but them.
Show to you a legendary ninja who's lost all of his strength by the age of 50?
Where did I ever say that a legendary would lost all his strength at 50? Stop putting words in my mouth.

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And I say legendary, because that's the type of people we are talking about. We aren't talking about the old man at the chuunin test, we are talking about what Yondaime would've been like had he gotten older. And when have I used any shinobi's past strength for affirmation? I never used their previous strength as a fact to argue a point. In fact, I have always aluded to the fact that we don't know their original strength, but considering they are still legendary it couldn't have fallen too far. You, on the other hand, are trying to argue they were stronger as fact, which remains unproven.
You alway used the argument of time to say that the 4th should have become stronger.
You weren't saying that they didn't fallen too far (which I basically agree) but that they got stronger.

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There is obviously a difference between just saying someone is legendary (like the sannin) and claiming someone is the god of the shinobi. If there weren't, you wouldn't take that claim to mean Sarutobi is the greatest of all time, based on that statement. Hopefully we've cleared that up, the difference between someone being 'legendary' and 'best of all time.'
Indeed being the God of the Shinobi, the best of all time blahblahblha is a greater fame than being part of the Sannin.
And that doesn't change that they're all legendary, that doesn't mean they share the same kind of strength, that's just not the same thing.

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Now, my point is, Yondaime, sannin, etc were all legendary in their twenties. Was Sarutobi? We don't know, in fact we don't know when he was labeled with nicknames. My only point here is the Yondaime's time, tenure, and abilities as Hokage were cut short by Kyuubi, where as Sarutobi had much more time, tenure, abilities, and a war to help establish that particular legend.
The war ended only 10 years ago so after Yondaime's death, as a Hokage he was the one who defeated the Kyubi which is already an incredible achievement.
Still he's known as the strongest.

My point didn't change, I don't say that's it's impossible that the 4th could have became even greater than the 3rd, just that it's not particulary likely.
Merely possible.

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I never said 'legendary' was a matter of time only, but of course time plays an effect. If Kyuubi had attacked 30 years earlier and killed Sarutobi at the age of 20, it's highly unlikely he would've had the legend that he did, because his life was cut short, the same that happened to Yondaime. Is time the only factor? No, of course not, but time allows for more circumstance/more jutsu/etc/etc which helps to create that legend. I could say the same in our world, had MJ been killed at 25 before any championships, he would've never recieved the recognition has being the best of all time.
It took me 10s to understand that you spoke of Michael Jordan and not of Michael Jackson/Oro as MJ means usually here ^^;;
And once again, you think that's it's unlikely that the 3rd was known as the strongest in his mid twenty whereas I think it's rather likely and anyway perfectly possible.
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Old 2004-08-25, 18:27   Link #277
itachistyle
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hehe ,itachi is not bad placed on the poll: he s even now not that far away the 4 th!!
seem that my post about the 4 th being a bit overrated has had some effects!lollll
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Old 2004-08-25, 22:51   Link #278
Macbrother
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Quote:
Don't be ridiculous, we're talking of ninja on a regular basis since the beginning, should I quote every single time where we discussed of the effect of aging on shinobi on general?

And once again from your own word we have no clue of their actual strength comparisons between then and now so you're just assuming that they are as strong as they were, as I do.
That's why we discuss in the first place.

The fact is that being in your prime means that you're at your top condition both physically and mentally, the peak of your life.
And that they're not in their prime anymore.
Uh, hello? Did I start this discussion by saying that Johnny average, Joe median and Billy mean would surpass the 3rd? No. The crux of this discussion is concerning Yondaime, his natural genius and talent for jutsu creation and the question of whether he would or would not surpass Sarutobi, given time to live out his prime and beyond. (at 25 he would be just entering it) Yes, there's been some knick knack side discussion about the shinobi in general, however I imagine you are fairly set that they are only going downwards from 25 onwards, where it's my belief that they are very much a conjunction martial artists / spell-casters / athletes wheras they decline physically they're experience, whatever jutsus they may learn, etc, offset, or even make them stronger than they were in their youth. Since we have zero data on the 'average joe ninja' at the age of 50, and both of us are fairly solid, I'm willing to let that slide.

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And I said in my first or second post that it's why they don't level down like that, but whatever your training, you can maintain your body in excelent condition but simply not as good as when you were young, you need more time to rest your body, you tire more easily, you heal less quickly, etc.
Exactly, however my whole point is that included with the extra physical training is experience + whatever new jutsus they pick up along the way can certainly make them equal if not superior to what they were young, for a time.

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Re-read the definition you gave yourself, where did you read something about wisdom?
And knowledge doesn't mean jutsu knowledge, the fact that you age doesn't mean obligatory that learn more jutsu.

And more generally, if all people learned from their experience the world would be a better place but that doesn't happen often.

Once again I spoke of regular ninja since that's what we do since quite a number of posts now.

But don't act like we weren't discussing about the ninja in general.

Btw you didn't even answer half of the part that you quoted.
I never said it was obligatory that their jutsu knowledge increased. However, being that they are ninja and I imagine they want to serve Konoha to the fullest, they would dedicate themselves to maintaining their strength or increasing it wherever possible. Where does wisdom come in? Hello, with experience? Wisdom = judgment + discernment + ability to apply knowledge, the more you see, the more mistakes you make, the more you see different reactions to different situations, what works, what doesn't, etc, etc, the more your ability to judge correctly how to act in situations, be they battle, or otherwise. Are you seriously new to the concept that wisdom comes with age?

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If your point is that the 4th is more likely to improve his jutsus then I agree because as I said in a previous post he's a genius.
Oh, sweet, because that's exactly what the point of the entire discussion is about. Re-read my first post if you need to.

Now, as for the part I left out...

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And you decided yourself that the loss of stamina is unimportant, if that so, where are the other old ninjas?
They should be the strongest with their huge experience and their 'almost the same' stamina.
So why do we only see young ninja, in their thirty at max except those who're legendary?
I didn't say unimportant, but it seems largely irrelavent at 50. I cannot recall an instance where one of the sannin were hindered by age. Hindered by lack of work for the past 25 years, by a drug, by a phobia, by loss of arms, but not age. They still have enormous, incredible, ridiculous chakras, to the point where they can call forth a grand summon and appear to be completely unphased by that. That seems to me age isn't affected them incredibly yet. There's absolutely zero indication that they were that much stronger when they were younger, either. Also, I thought of another interesting thing; the body that Orochimaru picked up. You seem to think that chakra is tied tremendously to the body, wheras Orochimaru has an entirely new body, yet there is no aparent loss of chakra. Do you think maybe spiritual/mental play more of a role, or do you think there's an adequate supply of freaky-looking chicks on the street with enormous sannin-level chakra?

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No, that's a reason for me to sit and say "hey Tsunade must be real good to be this strong in a fallen state whereas she abandoned the nindo since so long, ie as it's said in the manga.

And the 3rd had still an enormous strength whereas he was almost 70, still he had lost a huge part of his previous strength.
So what, if you're really good, age doesn't affect you? Tsunade's strength doesn't seem to have dropped at all since her youth, both Jiraiya and Orochimaru commented on this, so when's this fabled 'real-world' age degeneration thing supposed to begin, anyways? Like I said earlier, it's likely that in Naruto the aging process is either extremely slow, or non-existant at 50, since Tsunade hasn't lost an ounce, neither has Jiraiya apparently. I've never heard him make a comment about age hindering him, either. As you so often like to point out, "grats on seeing shonen manga are exaggerated." Well guess what, you think maybe its' exaggerated in this case too? Likely.

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How is it likely that the 4th create a jutsu summoning the God of Death at 25? Surely a jutsu such as this one would require a lot of practice upon to perfect, I suppose the 4th summoned it before but just said hey it was just for joking this time, see ya!
Please show one shred, iota, or example that shows he had not created the jutsu by 25, and I'll leave it alone.
Besides Oro has plenty of corpses to dispose : those of the enemy ninja, not hard to find in a era of perpetual war.
Haha, touche, however, there are some definite differences between these jutsus. The main thing shiki fuujin doesn't require corpses, is based upon a contract, and is a one-time only summon. So obviously we don't know the practice, if any, involved in bringing him forth, or how he created/completed the jutsu. I would like to know how you go about getting a contract with the death god, though :P

As for Edo Tensei, that does require corpses, is not a one-time only jutsu, and therefore could be practiced-upon, repeated, etc. I would imagine Orochimaru would test it in some form to make sure the right shit is brought forth, no? As far as I know, there is only one death god, so I doubt Yondaime had to worry about accidentally summoning baby death gods before fighting Kyuubi. They are very different techniques, so comparing them in this manner isn't really valid. And if he only needed dead corpses, why did he use two of his live, subordinates? It's more likely they need to be sacrificed for that purpose, Edo Tensei than that you can just pick up any two bodies off the street.

As for Nidaime, since he did say the name of the jutsu, I'll concede he may have heard of it before, but his and Shodaime's responses to it, if so, were very odd.

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Oro still have his chakra in a new and young body so what's your point about him
Dude, for the last time, it was if Oro were still in his old body but with all the ninjutsu he had learned over the 25 years, versus his younger self.

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There are no other ninja at this age but them.
Which is my point. All we have to go on are the legendary three, and considering Yondaime was in the same bracket, they make very good points of data to refer to.

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You alway used the argument of time to say that the 4th should have become stronger.
You weren't saying that they didn't fallen too far (which I basically agree) but that they got stronger.
Yes, of course, he was only 25-26. He's barely just entered his prime, there's no telling what new ninjutsu he can come with, create, use, etc, etc. There's no question in my mind he would've gotten stronger, the point of 'time' lending to strength is proven in the anime. Tsunade given 'time' is able to make herself almost indestructible. Oro, given 'time' perfects Edo Tensei along with giving himself eternal youth. Does time not seem to imply new ninjutsu and therefore probable 'greater strength' to you? When I argue about 'falling too far behind' that is only concering their physical aspect, of course with newer ninjutsu they are likely going to be even more deadly.

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It took me 10s to understand that you spoke of Michael Jordan and not of Michael Jackson/Oro as MJ means usually here ^^;;
And once again, you think that's it's unlikely that the 3rd was known as the strongest in his mid twenty whereas I think it's rather likely and anyway perfectly possible.
Unfortunately Michael jackson breaks my point in this case as my, how he has fallen since his prime :P But yeah, you think Sarutobi knew and mastered all of Konoha's jutsu by 25? lol, that'd be quite a feat to be called 'the professor' at age 25, along with the greatest ninja of all time. These titles in the real world are applied well after a ninjas prime, very rarely (if ever) during it. Once again comes down to what you and I think is probable.
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Old 2004-08-25, 23:14   Link #279
yinstro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbrother





Unfortunately Michael jackson breaks my point in this case as my, how he has fallen since his prime :P But yeah, you think Sarutobi knew and mastered all of Konoha's jutsu by 25? lol, that'd be quite a feat to be called 'the professor' at age 25, along with the greatest ninja of all time. These titles in the real world are applied well after a ninjas prime, very rarely (if ever) during it. Once again comes down to what you and I think is probable.

actually the anime seemed to suggest that the third became the hokage at an incredibly young age. They show a scene where the 1st and 2nd tell him some hokage crap. And i think his name proffesor was probably what he was called early in his career. later he became know as teh greatest of the kages.(IMO)

As far as yall 2s debate, i think it may make sense to say that the fourth may have got better, then again he may not. some geniuses, and people of high skill do not improve much with age. some people of less high abilities, become legendary when they are old. Many a genius or prodigy learns to play the piano at an early age, but many dont achieve the skill of a grandmaster by the end of thier career.

That said, apparently the 4rth was incredibly tough even during his time. Really i think that as it stands its probably a toss up between the 4rth and the 3rd for strongest in their prime
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Old 2004-08-26, 00:28   Link #280
Macbrother
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actually the anime seemed to suggest that the third became the hokage at an incredibly young age. They show a scene where the 1st and 2nd tell him some hokage crap. And i think his name proffesor was probably what he was called early in his career. later he became know as teh greatest of the kages.(IMO)
Unfortunatley, assuming he was named hokage at that moment, that creates a conflict with the Naruto data book. Taken from the biography of Ni/Shodaime:

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Shodaime and Nidaime were actually brothers! Sixty years ago, Shodaime led a group of shinobi to this lush forestland and found the Hidden Leaf Village. Unfortunately during that chaotic era, he passed away shortly after the creation of the village. Nidaime inherited his older brother's will and was responsible for the creation of the ninja academy and others organizations within the village. The great ninja war broke out afterwards; in his dying moment, Nidaime instructed the future generation to pacify the war and ensure the village's prosperity.
So you see, Shodaime died and Nidaime was hokage for some time afterwards, so according to that, Sarutobi cannot have been named hokage at that time (As both 1st and 2nd were alive). What's often inferred is that the statement "tomorrow you will be hokage" was referring to tomorrow as the future or 'next' era, e.g., "tomorrow's generation."

While your point is true, I think given the nature of Yondaime's personality, and the jutsu he created up to that point suggests he would've continued to grow. Although it's possible, I doubt he would just stop, it's more likely he would want to continually increase his strength for the sake of the village, he certainly paints the picture image of what it means to 'protect,' everyone in Konoha, even Sarutobi, seem to admire, look up to, and refer back to. The time Anko came in...he was staring at Yondaime's picture. When he was giving his monologue to Orochimaru about the village foundation, he ended it with "isn't that right, Fourth?" Anyways, yeah, most of it is conjecture, speculation, and opinion. Like I pointed out earlier, this is just side discussion, I'm just bouncing ideas around. Nothing more.

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That said, apparently the 4rth was incredibly tough even during his time. Really i think that as it stands its probably a toss up between the 4rth and the 3rd for strongest in their prime
I wouldn't argue against that.
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