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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-08-26, 01:56   Link #281
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbrother
Unfortunatley, assuming he was named hokage at that moment, that creates a conflict with the Naruto data book. Taken from the biography of Ni/Shodaime:



So you see, Shodaime died and Nidaime was hokage for some time afterwards, so according to that, Sarutobi cannot have been named hokage at that time (As both 1st and 2nd were alive). What's often inferred is that the statement "tomorrow you will be hokage" was referring to tomorrow as the future or 'next' era, e.g., "tomorrow's generation."
明日から、貴様が。。。火影だ!
(I took this from what I remember of the episode; I had to reference it another time for the same argument)

"From (starting) tomorrow" - no doubt about it. There would be a different way to say "Hokage of tomorrow" or "next Hokage".

Yes, it is an inconsisteny. Wouldn't be the first time, and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last.

Not sure where this point fits into the argument, but I would think that Jiraiya/Tsunade compensate for their loss of muscle by reinforcing them with chakra. It's already fairly commonplace, as we see Sasuke channel chakra into his legs to leap away from Haku's ice needles, crazy jumps, Rock Lee taking hits from Gaara's sand that would kill a regular human being, etc. etc.
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Old 2004-08-26, 02:21   Link #282
gibits
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Since we never saw any of the above mentioned nins in their prime we can only go by Kishimoto's words and what we've seen so far. How you interperpt them is your own bizzness. I simpily see that Kishmoto has already dubbed the 4th as the greatest hands down. Not just Anko or 3rd's comments or their ages.

Like MacBrother said he had developed moves that Oro, that justsu feind, never seen. He even went and taught his master (a Sannin BTW) the rasengan, and taught the 3rd (the Hokage) that death god seal. Had he been alive longer the trend would prolly continue. I think that is enuff "proof" to make the 4th the top dog, oh and the comment sprinkled in the series don't hurt his case either.
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Old 2004-08-26, 02:31   Link #283
Wingraf
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Wow, I'm surprise to see a close race, especially between the 3rd and the 4th. I voted for the 3rd because its been proven and stated that he was considered the "genius of shinobi/ninja of his time"(I think Oro said that) But we know very little about the 4th, just that he died for the village, invented the rasengen and knows the G.O.D technique, (God of Death) which the 3rd know too. I'm interested in why you guys think the 4th is the strongest. I think some of you who voted didn't put a reason.
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Old 2004-08-26, 12:24   Link #284
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macbrother
Uh, hello? Did I start this discussion by saying that Johnny average, Joe median and Billy mean would surpass the 3rd? No. The crux of this discussion is concerning Yondaime, his natural genius and talent for jutsu creation and the question of whether he would or would not surpass Sarutobi, given time to live out his prime and beyond. (at 25 he would be just entering it) Yes, there's been some knick knack side discussion about the shinobi in general, however I imagine you are fairly set that they are only going downwards from 25 onwards, where it's my belief that they are very much a conjunction martial artists / spell-casters / athletes wheras they decline physically they're experience, whatever jutsus they may learn, etc, offset, or even make them stronger than they were in their youth. Since we have zero data on the 'average joe ninja' at the age of 50, and both of us are fairly solid, I'm willing to let that slide.
The 3/4 of our posts were about the shinobi in general for the very reason that we have no info about the past strength of the Sannin, it wasn't knick knack side discussion, it was the backbone of this discussion.

Your argumentation until then was based on the fact that because the regular ninja never stop to grow, so does Yondaime.
Whereas my point was to say maybe The 4th would have continued to grow, but it's not the case for the regular ninja.

If we let slide that then I can only stick on what I said in my first post : Now did Yondaime would have become stronger (and I mean significantly stronger) than the Sannin and possibly than the God of the Shinobi himself at his best?
Maybe, who knows?

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Exactly, however my whole point is that included with the extra physical training is experience + whatever new jutsus they pick up along the way can certainly make them equal if not superior to what they were young, for a time.
And I agreed with that since the beginning, the point where we diverge is the amount of time that it can last.

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I never said it was obligatory that their jutsu knowledge increased. However, being that they are ninja and I imagine they want to serve Konoha to the fullest, they would dedicate themselves to maintaining their strength or increasing it wherever possible. Where does wisdom come in? Hello, with experience? Wisdom = judgment + discernment + ability to apply knowledge, the more you see, the more mistakes you make, the more you see different reactions to different situations, what works, what doesn't, etc, etc, the more your ability to judge correctly how to act in situations, be they battle, or otherwise. Are you seriously new to the concept that wisdom comes with age?
And you can dedicate yourself all you want, in the end time wins.
I'm not new in the concept that widom comes with age : it's just that it's a bullshit.
Neither common sense nor good judgment will come just because you're old, old isn't equal to wise.
Anyway as you reduced knowledge to jutsu knowledge, you reduce wisdom to battle wise or battle experience and I already say that it was one of the element allowing ninja to continue to improve their skills so what's your point?

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I didn't say unimportant, but it seems largely irrelavent at 50.
Six of one and half a dozen of the other.

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I cannot recall an instance where one of the sannin were hindered by age. Hindered by lack of work for the past 25 years, by a drug, by a phobia, by loss of arms, but not age. They still have enormous, incredible, ridiculous chakras, to the point where they can call forth a grand summon and appear to be completely unphased by that. That seems to me age isn't affected them incredibly yet. There's absolutely zero indication that they were that much stronger when they were younger, either. Also, I thought of another interesting thing; the body that Orochimaru picked up. You seem to think that chakra is tied tremendously to the body, wheras Orochimaru has an entirely new body, yet there is no aparent loss of chakra. Do you think maybe spiritual/mental play more of a role, or do you think there's an adequate supply of freaky-looking chicks on the street with enormous sannin-level chakra?
What the hell are you talking about?
Indeed Oro hasn't any apparent loss of chakra, he has a young and strong body and the spiritual energy of his old soul.
More than that given that the strong thoughts of his host remain inside him (as he said), maybe the spiritual energy of his new body increase his own(?).

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So what, if you're really good, age doesn't affect you? Tsunade's strength doesn't seem to have dropped at all since her youth, both Jiraiya and Orochimaru commented on this, so when's this fabled 'real-world' age degeneration thing supposed to begin, anyways?
Tsunade changes the age of her body with a Ninjutsu, she's in her younf self.
Look at her arm when the jutsu stopped and you will see what means degeneration (actually it must be even worse for Tsunade due to the side effect of her Genesis Rebirth).

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Like I said earlier, it's likely that in Naruto the aging process is either extremely slow, or non-existant at 50, since Tsunade hasn't lost an ounce, neither has Jiraiya apparently.
No like you said earlier we have no clue of their past strength, so forget your 'apparently' and 'likely', there is no indication the aging process is extremely slow or worse non-existant.
And for the second time, aging is a continual process, you don't start to age at 50.

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I've never heard him make a comment about age hindering him, either. As you so often like to point out, "grats on seeing shonen manga are exaggerated." Well guess what, you think maybe its' exaggerated in this case too? Likely.
The aging process is exagerated so it's non-existant?
You make no sense.

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Haha, touche, however, there are some definite differences between these jutsus. The main thing shiki fuujin doesn't require corpses, is based upon a contract, and is a one-time only summon. So obviously we don't know the practice, if any, involved in bringing him forth, or how he created/completed the jutsu. I would like to know how you go about getting a contract with the death god, though :P
As for Edo Tensei, that does require corpses, is not a one-time only jutsu, and therefore could be practiced-upon, repeated, etc. I would imagine Orochimaru would test it in some form to make sure the right shit is brought forth, no?
Indeed there are difference between these jutsu, but we simply don't know them, the Shiki Fuujin and the Edo Tensei are both Summon jutsus, there is no reason to think that the Edo Tensei can't be based on some sort of contract as well as we don't know if the Shiki Fuujin is based on a contract before the summon.

You must sign a regular summon contract with your blood, with what do you sign a contract with a Shinigami? You can give your soul only one time.

Anyway yeah I would like to know more about the genesis of this jutsu ^^

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As far as I know, there is only one death god, so I doubt Yondaime had to worry about accidentally summoning baby death gods before fighting Kyuubi. They are very different techniques, so comparing them in this manner isn't really valid. And if he only needed dead corpses, why did he use two of his live, subordinates? It's more likely they need to be sacrificed for that purpose, Edo Tensei than that you can just pick up any two bodies off the street.
Actually no there isn't only one lol, it's a Shinigami, there are plenty of them.

Then why doesn't use the live of these guinea pigs who had survived their utility?
Without saying that it has more strength to show the corpses of people the reader knew.

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As for Nidaime, since he did say the name of the jutsu, I'll concede he may have heard of it before, but his and Shodaime's responses to it, if so, were very odd.
Why?
Btw the Anbu captain explained all he knew about the Edo Tensei after that saying that it's a forbidden Kuchiyose etc.

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Dude, for the last time, it was if Oro were still in his old body but with all the ninjutsu he had learned over the 25 years, versus his younger self.
And again for the last time : I don't know what would be the abilities of Oro in an old body, how his transformed body, the chakra changed joint of his bones, allowing him to be sneak-ish would react to age for example?
And like I said Oro is a Ninjutsu specialist so the least touched by his body capacity.

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Which is my point. All we have to go on are the legendary three, and considering Yondaime was in the same bracket, they make very good points of data to refer to.
And given that we have no clue on their past strength, you simply can't say that the 4th had to become stronger based on them.

In the other hand we do know that the 3rd who was 17 years older than them suffered heavily from his age, even with new jutsu and experience.
You assume that it's not the case at all at 50, I assume that it's less the case at 50 because they're not that old yet.

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Yes, of course, he was only 25-26. He's barely just entered his prime, there's no telling what new ninjutsu he can come with, create, use, etc, etc. There's no question in my mind he would've gotten stronger, the point of 'time' lending to strength is proven in the anime.
The point isn't if he could have become stronger than he was at 25, but if he could have exceed the 3rd, again I don't see anything which makes that more likely than unlikely.

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Tsunade given 'time' is able to make herself almost indestructible. Oro, given 'time' perfects Edo Tensei along with giving himself eternal youth. Does time not seem to imply new ninjutsu and therefore probable 'greater strength' to you? When I argue about 'falling too far behind' that is only concering their physical aspect, of course with newer ninjutsu they are likely going to be even more deadly.
With time Tsunade dropped in a fallen state, with time Kakashi admitted that his current state wasn't enough and that he should re-train etc.

Time isn't a precise data of what will happen, it's not equal to training, it's not equal to more strength.
Especially when you have already the duty of your job to handle, a Hokage can't train all the time like a genin learning the jutsus he will use during his life.

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Unfortunately Michael jackson breaks my point in this case as my, how he has fallen since his prime :P But yeah, you think Sarutobi knew and mastered all of Konoha's jutsu by 25? lol, that'd be quite a feat to be called 'the professor' at age 25, along with the greatest ninja of all time. These titles in the real world are applied well after a ninjas prime, very rarely (if ever) during it. Once again comes down to what you and I think is probable.
These titles don't exist in real word, all the title we know in Naruto were given to living (and young btw) Ninja like the Sannin, Copy Ninja Kakashi, the Seven Sword Mist, The Demon of the Mist, etc.

Besides the professor and the God of the Shinobi are two different titles, I you really want to know I do think it's more likely that the 3rd gain this one when he was older (I have no particular amount of time in mind, just older).
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Old 2004-08-26, 19:47   Link #285
Macbrother
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Quote:
The 3/4 of our posts were about the shinobi in general for the very reason that we have no info about the past strength of the Sannin, it wasn't knick knack side discussion, it was the backbone of this discussion.

Your argumentation until then was based on the fact that because the regular ninja never stop to grow, so does Yondaime.
Whereas my point was to say maybe The 4th would have continued to grow, but it's not the case for the regular ninja.

If we let slide that then I can only stick on what I said in my first post : Now did Yondaime would have become stronger (and I mean significantly stronger) than the Sannin and possibly than the God of the Shinobi himself at his best?
Maybe, who knows?
Acutally that's exactly what it is. How a normal shinobi will grow with age, has very little to do with the point, that of how Yondaime would. I never responded that Yondaime would would never stop to grow based on regular ninja, in fact I have been using the sannin has the data set the entire time, as they make an excellent showing of how geniuses grow with age. As for the topic of 'regular' ninja, again we are pretty much at a stonewall here. Without any data to back either side, it is best to let that topic die. As for would've Yondaime become stronger, I stick to my original statement as well.

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And I agreed with that since the beginning, the point where we diverge is the amount of time that it can last.
Which is boggling, my original point was Sarutobi had 50 years to establish his legend, and by all accounts, shinobi of that calibur appear retain or keep growing with knowledge and ninjutsu in that time period.

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And you can dedicate yourself all you want, in the end time wins.
I'm not new in the concept that widom comes with age : it's just that it's a bullshit.
Neither common sense nor good judgment will come just because you're old, old isn't equal to wise.
Anyway as you reduced knowledge to jutsu knowledge, you reduce wisdom to battle wise or battle experience and I already say that it was one of the element allowing ninja to continue to improve their skills so what's your point?
Yes, in the end. When did I argue it didn't? And right, after experiencing life for 50 years you don't have a better of idea what to expect, how to react, and what's correct when you did at 20? Now that is bullshit. I didn't 'reduce' knowledge or wisdom to anything, I'm merely using it in the context of this dicussion. Of course knowledge is going to refer to jutsu knowledge or 'whatever' knowlege thats beneficial in battle that they pick up, what else would I refer to? If you agree then that allows ninja to continue to improve their skills, great. Looks like we can leave another topic in dust.

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Six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Not quite. One is saying it makes no difference. The other is saying it might make a difference but certainly nothing noticable and nothing we can show to be noticable. If you have evidence to the contrary (that age is making a relavent difference to chakra at 50), please show it.

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What the hell are you talking about?
Indeed Oro hasn't any apparent loss of chakra, he has a young and strong body and the spiritual energy of his old soul.
More than that given that the strong thoughts of his host remain inside him (as he said), maybe the spiritual energy of his new body increase his own(?).
The point here is that it is Orochiamru and his physical body that his enormous, legendary chakra. How come when he switches (changes bodies) he didn't have any apparent chakra loss? Are we to assume there is a good supply of people walking around with legendary chakra that compares to the sannin? Before you mention it, yes, it is Orochimaru's spiritual energy that makes up for some of the chakra, but he switched bodies and in turn switched his physical energy for the physical energy of the body he took on. Are we to assume the body he took on also had enormous, ridiculous chakra like the sannin? When almost no one in Naruto sports this kind've chakra? (My overall point being the above is unlikely, and therefore the amount of chakra one has isn't related to the physical body quite like we may imagine.)

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Tsunade changes the age of her body with a Ninjutsu, she's in her younf self.
Look at her arm when the jutsu stopped and you will see what means degeneration (actually it must be even worse for Tsunade due to the side effect of her Genesis Rebirth).
Hold up, where is it said that the age of her body changes? The appearance has changed yes, but she is still 50, and her body is still aging. There's nothing that shows she has somehow by-passed the limits of age using this body, but merely walks in this form because she doesn't like looking old or because she needs to change appearances whenever necessary. (like decieving debtors, like Jiraiya said)

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No like you said earlier we have no clue of their past strength, so forget your 'apparently' and 'likely', there is no indication the aging process is extremely slow or worse non-existant.
And for the second time, aging is a continual process, you don't start to age at 50.
Surely you are aware that the rate of age can and does change over the course of a lifetime. Yes, one is always getting older, but I may not experience rapid health loss until 50, 65, or even older, depending on who the person is. We have evidence that age affects you at 67, e.g., Sarutobi. We have zero evidence that it affects you at 50, in the world of Naruto. Which is my point.

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The aging process is exagerated so it's non-existant?
You make no sense.
Maybe because you're putting words in my mouth? I never said it was non-existant.

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Indeed there are difference between these jutsu, but we simply don't know them, the Shiki Fuujin and the Edo Tensei are both Summon jutsus, there is no reason to think that the Edo Tensei can't be based on some sort of contract as well as we don't know if the Shiki Fuujin is based on a contract before the summon.
Except the fact that Sarutobi said you must make a contract before using this jutsu, whereas that was never said of Edo Tensei, and would be illogical anyways, who would you make the contract with?

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Actually no there isn't only one lol, it's a Shinigami, there are plenty of them.

Then why doesn't use the live of these guinea pigs who had survived their utility?
Without saying that it has more strength to show the corpses of people the reader knew.
lol, where's it said there are multiple shinigami? (in the world of Naruto) And again, yes, the point of the moment (protecting your country) hits alot more harder by showing Oro sacrificing his, but still, why go through the trouble of killing people you trained when you can just get a corpse of someone already dead?

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Why?
Btw the Anbu captain explained all he knew about the Edo Tensei after that saying that it's a forbidden Kuchiyose etc.
Because, after he says the name, instead of saying "so it's that jutsu..." he still asks how he got here, like he doesn't know anything about the jutsu other than the name itself. Then Shodaime's response is "if that's the case" as if though Nidiame had explained the answer when he seemingly didn't even know it himself. And indeed, the anbu captain seemed to know all about it, which is pretty solid enough evidence despite the hokage's responses.

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I don't know what would be the abilities of Oro in an old body, how his transformed body, the chakra changed joint of his bones, allowing him to be sneak-ish would react to age for example?
And like I said Oro is a Ninjutsu specialist so the least touched by his body capacity.
Actually hopefully your last statement here gets much of the point I've been trying to get across all along, that the ninjutsu aspect, being the least effected by the body is more in the sense of a spell-caster who is almost always stronger with age. Oro as a ninjutsu specialist combined with his experience combined with the fact sannin still have incredible movement, chakra, etc would all but certainly lend the fight to the older Orochimaru.

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And given that we have no clue on their past strength, you simply can't say that the 4th had to become stronger based on them.
I never said had to either :P

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In the other hand we do know that the 3rd who was 17 years older than them suffered heavily from his age, even with new jutsu and experience.
You assume that it's not the case at all at 50, I assume that it's less the case at 50 because they're not that old yet.
Regardless of why you and I assume, the outcome (that at 50 they are showing zero reference or ability loss due to age) is the same.

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The point isn't if he could have become stronger than he was at 25, but if he could have exceed the 3rd, again I don't see anything which makes that more likely than unlikely.
lol, exactly how much stronger would he have to become? Indeed, we don't know. The point is, considering what he had developed just at 25, the sky is the limit, not just surpassing the 3rd. Like I already pointed out we'll never know for sure.

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With time Tsunade dropped in a fallen state, with time Kakashi admitted that his current state wasn't enough and that he should re-train etc.

Time isn't a precise data of what will happen, it's not equal to training, it's not equal to more strength.
Especially when you have already the duty of your job to handle, a Hokage can't train all the time like a genin learning the jutsus he will use during his life.
I never said time always = strength or training. But in the case of the Oro/Tsunade/ (maybe) jiraiya/Yondaime, that is proven to be the case.

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These titles don't exist in real word, all the title we know in Naruto were given to living (and young btw) Ninja like the Sannin, Copy Ninja Kakashi, the Seven Sword Mist, The Demon of the Mist, etc.

Besides the professor and the God of the Shinobi are two different titles, I you really want to know I do think it's more likely that the 3rd gain this one when he was older (I have no particular amount of time in mind, just older).
lol of course not those 'specific titles', but most any title like 'greatest of the sport' or 'alexander the great' etc etc are given not in the athlete or leader's prime, but after it, or perhaps even after their deaths. Yes, of course the professor and 'God of the shinobi' are different titles, but also of course one (the professor) effects and surely plays a large role in the latter.
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Old 2004-08-26, 20:11   Link #286
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I voted for Yondaime (The 4th) because he's basically most praised ninja in the whole series. I mean those you say that Sandaime is better if you think about it.

In one chapter of the manga when Sandaime was remeniscing about the past and he was looking fondly at the Yondaime's picture, after that Anko came in and told him about Orochimaru and even the old man said it himself that he would probably be no match for Orochi-chan, then Anko said if the 4th was still alive maybe......... after that well it's all good, so this is just one piece of example why the 4th is considered the best Hokage.

Also let's not forget that this was the man who was fully able to tame Gamabunta, oh yeah HE ALSO DEFEATED THE KYUUBI!!!!!!! For those people who said that he didn't do much and just put a seal on the fox, well you're all wrong then, let's see when Sandaime tried to do the same thing to Orochi-chan because he's was too weak he wasn't fully able to pull out his soul. So how strong must have Yondaime been to pull out the soul of the one of the strongest Youkais in the world.
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Old 2004-08-26, 20:20   Link #287
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Originally Posted by AnimeNewtype101
I voted for Yondaime (The 4th) because he's basically most praised ninja in the whole series. I mean those you say that Sandaime is better if you think about it.

In one chapter of the manga when Sandaime was remeniscing about the past and he was looking fondly at the Yondaime's picture, after that Anko came in and told him about Orochimaru and even the old man said it himself that he would probably be no match for Orochi-chan, then Anko said if the 4th was still alive maybe......... after that well it's all good, so this is just one piece of example why the 4th is considered the best Hokage.

Also let's not forget that this was the man who was fully able to tame Gamabunta, oh yeah HE ALSO DEFEATED THE KYUUBI!!!!!!! For those people who said that he didn't do much and just put a seal on the fox, well you're all wrong then, let's see when Sandaime tried to do the same thing to Orochi-chan because he's was too weak he wasn't fully able to pull out his soul. So how strong must have Yondaime been to pull out the soul of the one of the strongest Youkais in the world.
But its when the third said he couldnt beat oro, he is like 65+ from that fight it appears that with a full body of chakra he could have owned oro. He tamed gamabunta yes.. but so did jiraiya? and in fact teh 3rd taught teh sannin summoning? But yeah he defeated kyuubi, i doubt the third could have done it, or he probably would have, leaving a younger hokage in charge. But seriously, no one has shown close to the skills we ve seen from sarutobi, even oro, imo. Oro had a premeditated plan that took who knows how long to actually enact, and he never had a strong advantage other than sarutobi not having stamina anymore even with his 3 months of planning. I think its safe to say teh third, and maybe the fourth were way above the other fighters in their time
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Old 2004-08-26, 20:43   Link #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeNewtype101
I voted for Yondaime (The 4th) because he's basically most praised ninja in the whole series. I mean those you say that Sandaime is better if you think about it.

In one chapter of the manga when Sandaime was remeniscing about the past and he was looking fondly at the Yondaime's picture, after that Anko came in and told him about Orochimaru and even the old man said it himself that he would probably be no match for Orochi-chan, then Anko said if the 4th was still alive maybe......... after that well it's all good, so this is just one piece of example why the 4th is considered the best Hokage.

Also let's not forget that this was the man who was fully able to tame Gamabunta, oh yeah HE ALSO DEFEATED THE KYUUBI!!!!!!! For those people who said that he didn't do much and just put a seal on the fox, well you're all wrong then, let's see when Sandaime tried to do the same thing to Orochi-chan because he's was too weak he wasn't fully able to pull out his soul. So how strong must have Yondaime been to pull out the soul of the one of the strongest Youkais in the world.
Welcome to the thread. For some reason I think you're something like 4 pages behind the rest of us.
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Old 2004-08-26, 20:56   Link #289
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Originally Posted by yinstro
But its when the third said he couldnt beat oro, he is like 65+ from that fight it appears that with a full body of chakra he could have owned oro. He tamed gamabunta yes.. but so did jiraiya? and in fact teh 3rd taught teh sannin summoning? But yeah he defeated kyuubi, i doubt the third could have done it, or he probably would have, leaving a younger hokage in charge. But seriously, no one has shown close to the skills we ve seen from sarutobi, even oro, imo. Oro had a premeditated plan that took who knows how long to actually enact, and he never had a strong advantage other than sarutobi not having stamina anymore even with his 3 months of planning. I think its safe to say teh third, and maybe the fourth were way above the other fighters in their time
Oro didn't have an advantage? If it weren't for the Death God Jutsu (which is designed to beat someone you cannot defeat in regular combat anyway), Sarutobi would have lost to Orochimaru without even touching him. I would call that severly outclassed. Of course, the fight would have been different if the Third would have been in his prime, but even then, I wouldn't be so sure about the outcome. Edo Tensei is a horribly overpowered jutsu.
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Old 2004-08-26, 21:49   Link #290
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Originally Posted by Anthriel
Oro didn't have an advantage? If it weren't for the Death God Jutsu (which is designed to beat someone you cannot defeat in regular combat anyway), Sarutobi would have lost to Orochimaru without even touching him. I would call that severly outclassed. Of course, the fight would have been different if the Third would have been in his prime, but even then, I wouldn't be so sure about the outcome. Edo Tensei is a horribly overpowered jutsu.
So exactly how did Oro outclass the 3rd? Exactly how can he even win against the 3rd?

So in 10 years, the 3rd went from being a 'no question' definite win and killing of Oro, to being severly outclassed?
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Old 2004-08-26, 22:41   Link #291
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Originally Posted by raikage
Welcome to the thread. For some reason I think you're something like 4 pages behind the rest of us.
Yeah, I haven't been coming on much to the AnimeSuki forum lately, since I had to take care of some real life stuff which I still have to finish. In fact the only reason I posted anything was because I saw this topic.
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Old 2004-08-26, 22:45   Link #292
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Macbrother
Acutally that's exactly what it is. How a normal shinobi will grow with age, has very little to do with the point, that of how Yondaime would. I never responded that Yondaime would would never stop to grow based on regular ninja, in fact I have been using the sannin has the data set the entire time, as they make an excellent showing of how geniuses grow with age. As for the topic of 'regular' ninja, again we are pretty much at a stonewall here. Without any data to back either side, it is best to let that topic die. As for would've Yondaime become stronger, I stick to my original statement as well.
Ah seriously Macbrother don't be stupid, Here is just a few paragraphs of your using the regular ninjas as argument I could double the amount just with some of my answer and still multiply the whole thing by quoting them all but it take too much place I'm already at the limit of 10000 character by post.
Spoiler:


And you didn't use the data of the Sannin because there is no data about how their strength changed with age.


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Which is boggling, my original point was Sarutobi had 50 years to establish his legend, and by all accounts, shinobi of that calibur appear retain or keep growing with knowledge and ninjutsu in that time period.
And my original point was that Sarutobi didn't need 50 years to establish his legend and that even shinobi of that caliber weaken with age.


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Yes, in the end. When did I argue it didn't? And right, after experiencing life for 50 years you don't have a better of idea what to expect, how to react, and what's correct when you did at 20? Now that is bullshit.
No that the sad truth, I worked and still work with plenty of young boys around their twenty and men over their fifty and I can assure you that being older isn't equal to wiser.
That just depend of the people, not of their age.
Sorry to breack your dream to become automatically wiser while you would grow old.

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I didn't 'reduce' knowledge or wisdom to anything, I'm merely using it in the context of this dicussion. Of course knowledge is going to refer to jutsu knowledge or 'whatever' knowlege thats beneficial in battle that they pick up, what else would I refer to? If you agree then that allows ninja to continue to improve their skills, great. Looks like we can leave another topic in dust
Yes you reduce these terms, wisdom and battle experience doesn't imply the same thing.
Except that yeah we can drop this point.


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Not quite. One is saying it makes no difference. The other is saying it might make a difference but certainly nothing noticable and nothing we can show to be noticable. If you have evidence to the contrary (that age is making a relavent difference to chakra at 50), please show it.
lol exactly what I said, Six of one and half a dozen of the other, you just play with words.
And show me a relavent evidence that age doesn't make a relavent difference to chakra and overall strength at 50, please show it.

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The point here is that it is Orochiamru and his physical body that his enormous, legendary chakra. How come when he switches (changes bodies) he didn't have any apparent chakra loss? Are we to assume there is a good supply of people walking around with legendary chakra that compares to the sannin? Before you mention it, yes, it is Orochimaru's spiritual energy that makes up for some of the chakra, but he switched bodies and in turn switched his physical energy for the physical energy of the body he took on. Are we to assume the body he took on also had enormous, ridiculous chakra like the sannin? When almost no one in Naruto sports this kind've chakra? (My overall point being the above is unlikely, and therefore the amount of chakra one has isn't related to the physical body quite like we may imagine.)
You confond physical energy and chakra, the second comes from the first but it's not the same thing.
The body that Oro chose are young, strong and healthy with surely plenty of physical energy.
Besides the chakra producing organs work probably better when they're young.


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Hold up, where is it said that the age of her body changes? The appearance has changed yes, but she is still 50, and her body is still aging. There's nothing that shows she has somehow by-passed the limits of age using this body, but merely walks in this form because she doesn't like looking old or because she needs to change appearances whenever necessary. (like decieving debtors, like Jiraiya said)
Even the Henge isn't an illusion but real changement of the body even able to morph you onto an object, and besides Tsunade 's true body is older than 50, her jutsu ages her body in exchange to regenerate her completely.
Heck, when she isn't using her jutsu she seems in an even worse state than the 3rd at 67~68 with her decrepit and shaking arms.

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Surely you are aware that the rate of age can and does change over the course of a lifetime. Yes, one is always getting older, but I may not experience rapid health loss until 50, 65, or even older, depending on who the person is. We have evidence that age affects you at 67, e.g., Sarutobi. We have zero evidence that it affects you at 50, in the world of Naruto. Which is my point.
Seriously stop dreaming, yeah the body experiment health loss before 50 years old, your only 'point' is that basic knowledge aren't the same in the world of Naruto, well guess what it was never said either that the sky is blue but until the contrary is stated there is no reason to think otherwise.

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Maybe because you're putting words in my mouth? I never said it was non-existant.
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Like I said earlier, it's likely that in Naruto the aging process is either extremely slow, or non-existant at 50
Maybe you should read your own post when you write them?

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Except the fact that Sarutobi said you must make a contract before using this jutsu, whereas that was never said of Edo Tensei, and would be illogical anyways, who would you make the contract with?
No, the 3rd said that only those who forms a contract with this jutsu can see the Shinigami.

There is nothing about to sign a contract before, from what the 3rd says it seems that the jutsu is the contract, to perform the jutsu is the signature by itself.
For the Edo Tensei no idea, I was just saying that we don't know shit about this jutsu except that it requires a sacrifice to hold the soul.

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lol, where's it said there are multiple shinigami? (in the world of Naruto) And again, yes, the point of the moment (protecting your country) hits alot more harder by showing Oro sacrificing his, but still, why go through the trouble of killing people you trained when you can just get a corpse of someone already dead?
Seriously stop to add -in the world of Naruto- when you ignored something.
What are the Shinigami is commom knowledge for japanese people.
And again it's the way around, why bother to seek 2 others people whereas you have 2 guys who're not useful anymore within reach?
Oro just found an utility for them.
Besides you need a sacrifice to hold the soul, you don't merely need a corpse, you need to kill someone.

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Because, after he says the name, instead of saying "so it's that jutsu..." he still asks how he got here, like he doesn't know anything about the jutsu other than the name itself. Then Shodaime's response is "if that's the case" as if though Nidiame had explained the answer when he seemingly didn't even know it himself. And indeed, the anbu captain seemed to know all about it, which is pretty solid enough evidence despite the hokage's responses.

No in both anime and manga they're not even surprised to be here and immediately understand the situation.

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Actually hopefully your last statement here gets much of the point I've been trying to get across all along, that the ninjutsu aspect, being the least effected by the body is more in the sense of a spell-caster who is almost always stronger with age. Oro as a ninjutsu specialist combined with his experience combined with the fact sannin still have incredible movement, chakra, etc would all but certainly lend the fight to the older Orochimaru.
My last statement is basically a copy and past of my first answer to this point 4 pages ago you know...
For your spell caster point I think raikage answered to it pretty much (still 4 pages ago) and as I said you take an extreme example as a generality.
Oh and I didn't see the Sannin having 'incredible movement', neither Oro nor Jiraiya nor Tsunade who pained to catch Kabuto who isn't even particulary good in Taijutsu.

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I never said had to either :P
So what's the point to this whole discussion to begin with?
To say that it wasn't certain that the 4th would have became really particulary stronger is my original point.

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Regardless of why you and I assume, the outcome (that at 50 they are showing zero reference or ability loss due to age) is the same.
Indeed the outcome is the same given that it's the only sure point of all that lol

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I never said time always = strength or training. But in the case of the Oro/Tsunade/ (maybe) jiraiya/Yondaime, that is proven to be the case.
Given that Oro doesn't age your only example remains Tsunade.
And still no it's absolutely not proven.

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lol of course not those 'specific titles', but most any title like 'greatest of the sport' or 'alexander the great' etc etc are given not in the athlete or leader's prime, but after it, or perhaps even after their deaths.
And plenty of other people gain their 'title' right when they reach the peak in their field, so?

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Yes, of course the professor and 'God of the shinobi' are different titles, but also of course one (the professor) effects and surely plays a large role in the latter.
It's not certain at all, actually I see it the way around.
First he was the strongest Ninja blahblahblah, then he was known as the professor.
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Old 2004-08-26, 22:47   Link #293
Genei Killua
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Originally Posted by UserName
Exactly how can he even win against the 3rd?
Well, hadn't Naruto been a shonen, and therefore had the main villain shown some basic intelligence, Oro would have edo tensei'd a whole crapload of top-notch ninjas in a place where the 3rd couldn't have stopped the jutsu, therefore Sarutobi not only would have had to have dealt with the 1st and 2nd, but also the 4th, and some other big shiznit ninjas.
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Old 2004-08-27, 00:46   Link #294
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Ah seriously Macbrother don't be stupid, Here is just a few paragraphs of your using the regular ninjas as argument I could double the amount just with some of my answer and still multiply the whole thing by quoting them all but it take too much place I'm already at the limit of 10000 character by post.
Your point of showing all that was? Where once among those paragraphs did I make any mention of Yondaime? Zero. Yes, we had plenty of side-discussion about 'shinobi' in general, I never said we didn't, I just said I wasn't using regular shinobi to prove anything about Yondaime, I was using the sannin, which I can use as they are still strong at 50. I don't need to know how strong they were before, all I need to know that there strength is indeed still legendary at 50, with no evidence showing they were stronger when they were young, but evidence to the contrary in the new jutsu they have developed.

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And my original point was that Sarutobi didn't need 50 years to establish his legend and that even shinobi of that caliber weaken with age.
Except you make this statement out of ignorance, because you at no point in time know when and what age Sarutobi was when he established whatever legend he did, whatever feat he accomplished. The point here being only Sarutobi had surely 30-40 years of being Hokage at least, where Yondaime had maybe 3 or 4. That is much, much more time to build up a legend.

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No that the sad truth, I worked and still work with plenty of young boys around their twenty and men over their fifty and I can assure you that being older isn't equal to wiser.
That just depend of the people, not of their age.
Sorry to breack your dream to become automatically wiser while you would grow old.
Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless, I can easily say my experiences with the elderly are very much different. I never said wisdom was 'automatic', obviously that concept is not going to be the same with everyone, but it's definitely the case with many and surely would be the case for a genius.

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Yes you reduce these terms, wisdom and battle experience doesn't imply the same thing.
Except that yeah we can drop this point.
What exactly is the context of this discussion? Wisdom outside of battle? Who was the smartest hokage? No, of course not, obviously this is going to be wisdom as it pertains to a hokage's fighting ability, again, I'm not reducing anything, I'm placing it as it relates to the context of this discussion.

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lol exactly what I said, Six of one and half a dozen of the other, you just play with words.
And show me a relavent evidence that age doesn't make a relavent difference to chakra and overall strength at 50, please show it.
If you can't see the difference between there not being a difference period, and there not being a difference we can notice, I'm not going to explain it again. As for evidence, I have. The fact that they have developed new jutsu which greatly increased their strength (immortality, edo tensei, souzou saisei) and the fact that not once have we seen them make a reference to or appear to be hindered by age. Again, I didn't ask you for proof, as what I just mentioned isn't proof either, but it is evidence that points to it, I merely ask you for yours. At least try to back it up with info or drop the claim.

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You confond physical energy and chakra, the second comes from the first but it's not the same thing.
The body that Oro chose are young, strong and healthy with surely plenty of physical energy.
Besides the chakra producing organs work probably better when they're young.
I never said they were the same thing, in fact I said exactly what you repeat here, that physical energy ties into the amount of chakra one is able to mold. However, the point is, chakra is composed of (2) things, physical and spiritual energy. We do not know which if any are greater, so I imagine we just assume they both have an equal weight in determining one's chakra. (if they do not, and spiritual energy plays more of a role, then that means age plays less of a role). If Orochimaru casts off his body, he is losing half of that enormous sannin-level chakra, and is replacing it with someone he picked, using a new source for physical energy, therefore his chakra must be affected, unless the body he chose happened to also have enormous physical energy, which considering how rare the chakra of the sannin is, I doubt is very easy, if even possible, to find. That's if physical energy plays an equal role.

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Even the Henge isn't an illusion but real changement of the body even able to morph you onto an object, and besides Tsunade 's true body is older than 50, her jutsu ages her body in exchange to regenerate her completely.
Heck, when she isn't using her jutsu she seems in an even worse state than the 3rd at 67~68 with her decrepit and shaking arms.
I don't think we know enough about this jutsu to make this sort of claim. When she reverted back, she did so due to chakra exhaustion. If what you're saying is true, then using this jutsu would augment almost everything about her, including her overall chakra capacity. I'm not saying it's a genjutsu, because it's probably not, her appearence change is real, but that doesn't necessarily mean her heart, lungs, muscles, etc, are all youthful. If you have a manga reference that states that explicitly, however, I'll go with that.

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Seriously stop dreaming, yeah the body experiment health loss before 50 years old, your only 'point' is that basic knowledge aren't the same in the world of Naruto, well guess what it was never said either that the sky is blue but until the contrary is stated there is no reason to think otherwise.
You're the one who is dreaming. Yes, age is of course constant, the effects of age on the body are not, necessarily. I age 5 years from 35 to 40. Does that mean I lose the exact same health as I do from aging 55-60? No, of course not, my body is probably degenerating more rapidly at an older age than at a younger age, which explains why at 67 Sarutobi didn't stand a chance against a 50-year-old Orochimaru, but at 50 he could've defeated a 33 year-old one.

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Maybe you should read your own post when you write them?
You said:

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The aging process is exagerated so it's non-existant?
Which is not what I said. Try your own medicine before doling it out to others.

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No, the 3rd said that only those who forms a contract with this jutsu can see the Shinigami.

There is nothing about to sign a contract before, from what the 3rd says it seems that the jutsu is the contract, to perform the jutsu is the signature by itself.
For the Edo Tensei no idea, I was just saying that we don't know shit about this jutsu except that it requires a sacrifice to hold the soul.
Again, there's nothing that implies the contract is signed upon execution. We have no idea what he means by signing a contract with the jutsu itself. Regardless, the point is you said maybe Edo Tensei is based on a contract because it's a summon, whereas we know for a fact that Shiki Fuujin is based on a contract. Like I said before, who would the contract be with if that were the case? That's illogical.

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What are the Shinigami is commom knowledge for japanese people.
That's great. Try answering the question next time.

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And again it's the way around, why bother to seek 2 others people whereas you have 2 guys who're not useful anymore within reach?
Oro just found an utility for them.
Because these are people you have trained and put at least a shred of effort into, whereas two people on the street would probably be alot more worthless?

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Besides you need a sacrifice to hold the soul, you don't merely need a corpse, you need to kill someone.
Uh, hello? Did you somehow miss when I said this?:

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It's more likely they need to be sacrificed for that purpose, Edo Tensei than that you can just pick up any two bodies off the street.
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No in both anime and manga they're not even surprised to be here and immediately understand the situation.
No, the dialogue is just as I explained it, unless you're using another translation. Instead of saying "Edo Tensei...so he used that to get us here." he says "Edo Tensei? So this kid summoned us with a kinjutsu?" With the 1st replying with "if that's the case..." as if he doesn't know for sure either. In any case they are certainly surprised, or at least impressed with what Oro has done ("what a guy")

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For your spell caster point I think raikage answered to it pretty much (still 4 pages ago) and as I said you take an extreme example as a generality.
Oh and I didn't see the Sannin having 'incredible movement', neither Oro nor Jiraiya nor Tsunade who pained to catch Kabuto who isn't even particulary good in Taijutsu.
Answered it? He said the same thing I was, that in a sense they are sorcerers, who always grow more powerful with age, which you never replied to. Oro is extreme as a ninjutsu specialist? lol, and yondaime wasn't? By incredible movement, I'm referring to Oro/Jiraiya when they were fighting on the giant snakes prior to the grand summonings:

Spoiler:


and

Spoiler:


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To say that it wasn't certain that the 4th would have became really particulary stronger is my original point.
Your point isn't necessarily in contradiction to mine, as I never said it was certain either. Like I already said before, the entire point was to bounce ideas around. :P

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Given that Oro doesn't age your only example remains Tsunade.
And still no it's absolutely not proven.
lol? And just why doesn't Oro age? [Hint: Given time, he created a ninjutsu. Who would've thunk it?] As for Tsunade, you think the now basically 'indestructable' version would lose to the vulvernable one? Ohhhh kay.

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And plenty of other people gain their 'title' right when they reach the peak in their field, so?
Just curious, such as...? That is, someone who was declared the best of all time in whatever their particular field when they just started it. Besides, I said as a general rule, I can name plenty of more examples then the first two I mentioned, but give me a couple of yours.

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It's not certain at all, actually I see it the way around.
First he was the strongest Ninja blahblahblah, then he was known as the professor.
I would imagine 'knowing all jutsu' would be an aspect of being the 'god of the shinobi', not that being the 'god of the shinobi' was part of being the professor.
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Old 2004-08-27, 01:26   Link #295
yinstro
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Originally Posted by Genei Killua
Well, hadn't Naruto been a shonen, and therefore had the main villain shown some basic intelligence, Oro would have edo tensei'd a whole crapload of top-notch ninjas in a place where the 3rd couldn't have stopped the jutsu, therefore Sarutobi not only would have had to have dealt with the 1st and 2nd, but also the 4th, and some other big shiznit ninjas.
except you dont know what else is required to summon a dead person (maybe you need their corpses, or some personal item) and you have to make some sort of sacrifice for each person you use. Also when your much higher in skill than your enemy, numbers dont make much of a difference in naruto. Remember when Itachi said he and kisame could at best hope for a draw with jiraiya regardless of numbers. And outside of Sannin, or Hokage no one else seems to be even close to The thirds skill, even at 65
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Old 2004-08-27, 05:19   Link #296
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the order i would rank them would probably be...

1. sarutobi - no doubt, regarded by everyone else as the greatest nin knows all the techniques of leaf and be able to use them flawlessly together as he demonstrated...

2. 4th hokage - powerful enough to stand up to kyuubi...no matter what you say bout the double k.o...just being able to invent a jutsu that can take down the strongest known entity in the naruto world speaks for itself...besides the person must be strong enough to struggle with kyuubi to drag his soul in...just like how sarutobi/orochimaru were going on for hours *maybe that was just the anime draggin out time *

3. jiraiya/itachi -too many unknown factors involved

jiraiya - knows some powerful jutsu's and exerts good control of them too...he can summon which i don't think itachi can handle if that occurs...unless itachi has a summon...hes just a bit over his prime as of now..but he proved to be a formidable foe against itachi...

itachi - alreadi powerful at his age...but i would guess he can still grow more powerful...also huge plus with sharigan...plus we still have yet to see the last of the 3 jutsu's given by mange sharigan..but he is limited however by his chakra capacity...by that i dont' mean he has very little chakra....i'm sure he has a grip...but compared to the people alreadi listed..he seem to be the rookie on the list..its either that or all the jutsu he uses...as powerful as they are...consumes too much chakra to be very practical in hokage/sannin level duels...

so give itachi 10 years and take 10 years from jiraiya? perhaps we'll have a sweet match...besides i don't wanna hear any crap bout "ONE LOOK AND UR GONE!!!...NO CONTEST!!!" crap...if any of the above can't even find a way around a genjutsu and have a match w/o using his eyes...they don't deserve the title of hokage/sannin...i would probably throw orochimaru in there but too lazy to list another...he would probably be 3rd or 4th on the list...hes not as powerful cuz hes too busy trying to collect all the jutsu to concentrate on strong ones...
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Old 2004-08-27, 09:07   Link #297
Genei Killua
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Originally Posted by yinstro
except you dont know what else is required to summon a dead person (maybe you need their corpses, or some personal item) and you have to make some sort of sacrifice for each person you use. Also when your much higher in skill than your enemy, numbers dont make much of a difference in naruto. Remember when Itachi said he and kisame could at best hope for a draw with jiraiya regardless of numbers. And outside of Sannin, or Hokage no one else seems to be even close to The thirds skill, even at 65
Then strike out the part about other shiznit ninjas, and just add in the 4th, whom Orochimaru was raising but was stopped by the 3rd, who said that there was no way he could win if the 4th was brought back to life.
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Old 2004-08-27, 09:10   Link #298
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Originally Posted by kside
itachi - alreadi powerful at his age...but i would guess he can still grow more powerful...also huge plus with sharigan...plus we still have yet to see the last of the 3 jutsu's given by mange sharigan..but he is limited however by his chakra capacity...by that i dont' mean he has very little chakra....i'm sure he has a grip...but compared to the people alreadi listed..he seem to be the rookie on the list..its either that or all the jutsu he uses...as powerful as they are...consumes too much chakra to be very practical in hokage/sannin level duels...
could be an nice reason for him to get kyubi...
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Old 2004-08-27, 15:51   Link #299
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Originally Posted by Macbrother
Your point of showing all that was? Where once among those paragraphs did I make any mention of Yondaime? Zero. Yes, we had plenty of side-discussion about 'shinobi' in general, I never said we didn't, I just said I wasn't using regular shinobi to prove anything about Yondaime, I was using the sannin, which I can use as they are still strong at 50. I don't need to know how strong they were before, all I need to know that there strength is indeed still legendary at 50, with no evidence showing they were stronger when they were young, but evidence to the contrary in the new jutsu they have developed.
Your bad faith is just laughable, all these point were answer to the effect of age on Ninja in general and thus on the Sannin and Yondaime as well, just re-read your point about 'john the ninja' lol, it was all your argument used to say that the Sannin were stronger than when they were younger and thus that the 4th would have became even stronger and stronger during the 25 next years (and not just during a certain time).

And no the Sannin do not make a perfect example of how the geniuses grow with age given that we don't don't how their strength grow since their youth.
The fact that they're still strong doesn't mean that they are stronger. Sarutobi was still strong, he wasn't stronger than when he was young.
They have new jutsu? Yeah that doesn't prove that it's enough to compensate their young health.
You have no evidence of the contrary you just wish for because you like the idea.

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Except you make this statement out of ignorance, because you at no point in time know when and what age Sarutobi was when he established whatever legend he did, whatever feat he accomplished. The point here being only Sarutobi had surely 30-40 years of being Hokage at least, where Yondaime had maybe 3 or 4. That is much, much more time to build up a legend.
Don't make me laugh, you know nothing either about that, all your points are completely guesses since the beginning.

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Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless, I can easily say my experiences with the elderly are very much different. I never said wisdom was 'automatic', obviously that concept is not going to be the same with everyone, but it's definitely the case with many and surely would be the case for a genius.
If you admit that wisdom doesn't come automatically with age then my point remains, you have no point on the evolution of the 4th, just wish.

And genius doesn't mean wisdom at all, actually many genius aren't wise and lack of common sense for the very fact that they're not common.
Oro is a genius I wouldn't call him wise.

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What exactly is the context of this discussion? Wisdom outside of battle? Who was the smartest hokage? No, of course not, obviously this is going to be wisdom as it pertains to a hokage's fighting ability, again, I'm not reducing anything, I'm placing it as it relates to the context of this discussion.
No, you use unprecise words to try to make point, does knowledge will improve with age? Yeah in all probability, does Jutsu knowledge will improve with age? Just maybe.
And finally do new jutsus will improve strength?
Once again just maybe, any jutsu aren't enough to improve consequently the strength of the user or Kakashi would be Kage level since a long time.

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If you can't see the difference between there not being a difference period, and there not being a difference we can notice, I'm not going to explain it again.
You didn't explained anything to begin with, you merely stated your belief.
You just said that if there must be a difference then it's noticeable because... that doesn't fit with your point so difference : trace.
That's not an exaplanation that's just your wish again and again.

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As for evidence, I have. The fact that they have developed new jutsu which greatly increased their strength (immortality, edo tensei, souzou saisei) and the fact that not once have we seen them make a reference to or appear to be hindered by age. Again, I didn't ask you for proof, as what I just mentioned isn't proof either, but it is evidence that points to it, I merely ask you for yours. At least try to back it up with info or drop the claim.
My evidence was the complete fallen state of Sarutobi that you could only countered by your usual answer when you have no answer : 'it's different in the world of Naruto', without any evidence of that btw.

The immortality jutsu put Oro out the point, the discussion was about the effect of age on Youndame not time alone, you still have no proof nor evidence that Oro learned the Edo Tensei at whetever age.
And the Souzou Saisei doesn't make obligatory Tsunade stronger than she was, if her young self was just faster enough than her old untrained self then it doesn't matter, the young version of Tsunade would just beat to a pulp her old self who could only regenerate the awful damage of Tsunade's blows some times before giving up on chakra.

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never said they were the same thing, in fact I said exactly what you repeat here, that physical energy ties into the amount of chakra one is able to mold. However, the point is, chakra is composed of (2) things, physical and spiritual energy. We do not know which if any are greater, so I imagine we just assume they both have an equal weight in determining one's chakra. (if they do not, and spiritual energy plays more of a role, then that means age plays less of a role). If Orochimaru casts off his body, he is losing half of that enormous sannin-level chakra, and is replacing it with someone he picked, using a new source for physical energy, therefore his chakra must be affected, unless the body he chose happened to also have enormous physical energy, which considering how rare the chakra of the sannin is, I doubt is very easy, if even possible, to find. That's if physical energy plays an equal role.
You don't say it but you reason as it's the case, Oro doesn't lose half of his chakra, he takes a body having its own stamina adding the power of his own soul, actually if the stolen body is well trained and powerful it's can be even better than previously especially if Oro's original body wasn't that good because Taijutsu wasn't his speciality.
Btw if it's obviously possible to create chakra imbued with more of one of the two energy, the result is unstable.

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I don't think we know enough about this jutsu to make this sort of claim. When she reverted back, she did so due to chakra exhaustion. If what you're saying is true, then using this jutsu would augment almost everything about her, including her overall chakra capacity. I'm not saying it's a genjutsu, because it's probably not, her appearence change is real, but that doesn't necessarily mean her heart, lungs, muscles, etc, are all youthful. If you have a manga reference that states that explicitly, however, I'll go with that.
And I think Tsunade was pretty clear about that when she said that she will be alright when her body would return to its young form.
The very fact that her physical strength remains the same than 30 years ago whereas the age and the state of her body out of her jutsu is in a pitiful and even older state that it should be due to her jutsu shows that.

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You're the one who is dreaming. Yes, age is of course constant, the effects of age on the body are not, necessarily. I age 5 years from 35 to 40. Does that mean I lose the exact same health as I do from aging 55-60? No, of course not, my body is probably degenerating more rapidly at an older age than at a younger age, which explains why at 67 Sarutobi didn't stand a chance against a 50-year-old Orochimaru, but at 50 he could've defeated a 33 year-old one.
I didn't say that the effects of age are constant, I said that these effect start to appear before 50 years old.
Oh and it was more like a 20~25 years old Orochimaru, he's not in his old body anymore remember?

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You said:
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The aging process is exagerated so it's non-existant?
Which is not what I said. Try your own medicine before doling it out to others.
=
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Originally Posted by macbrother
Like I said earlier, it's likely that in Naruto the aging process is either extremely slow, or non-existant at 50, since Tsunade hasn't lost an ounce, neither has Jiraiya apparently. I've never heard him make a comment about age hindering him, either. As you so often like to point out, "grats on seeing shonen manga are exaggerated." Well guess what, you think maybe its' exaggerated in this case too? Likely.
This is exactly what you said.

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Again, there's nothing that implies the contract is signed upon execution. We have no idea what he means by signing a contract with the jutsu itself.
What other mean has 'You must sign the contract with the jutsu to see the god of death than this one?
You merely didn't see that he said signed with the jutsu and thus assumed that you should sign a contract with the Shinigami before -which is still possible btw, but not said.


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Regardless, the point is you said maybe Edo Tensei is based on a contract because it's a summon, whereas we know for a fact that Shiki Fuujin is based on a contract. Like I said before, who would the contract be with if that were the case? That's illogical.
I don't know, that's why I said that we know nothing about this jutsu, but where is your imagination suddenly?
A contract with a heaven guard to borrow some souls for the week end for example ^^

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That's great. Try answering the question next time.
I did, you just can't handle to admit that you didn't know what you talked about.
The shinigami coming to take the soul are utterly common stuff for japanese, they're used to the death (:P) in many mangas, movies, books, etc.
You didn't know it, that's all and that's not big a deal.

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Because these are people you have trained and put at least a shred of effort into, whereas two people on the street would probably be alot more worthless?
They were already considered as worthless, re-read what was the epitaph of Dosu by Kabuto...
Besides there is no indication that they were trained personally by Oro.
And in the end there is nothing to discuss about : they were used as sacrifice, so obviously Oro has no use for them anymore.
Zaku was armless and Kin wasn't even as useful as Sakura, he used them at their upmost utility : as corpses.

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Uh, hello? Did you somehow miss when I said this?:
My bad, the way you say this I thought you meant to pick up already dead body, but if that so I don't understand what you mean, care to reformulate your point?


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No, the dialogue is just as I explained it, unless you're using another translation. Instead of saying "Edo Tensei...so he used that to get us here." he says "Edo Tensei? So this kid summoned us with a kinjutsu?" With the 1st replying with "if that's the case..." as if he doesn't know for sure either. In any case they are certainly surprised, or at least impressed with what Oro has done ("what a guy")
I checked the anime and the manga and no, you just cut off the sentence of the 1st to make look like he's surprised or wonder what happens which is clearly wrong.
The 2nd merely said that it was the Edo Tensei and praised Orochimaru then the 1st just said 'if that's the case, Sarutobi, we must fight you', showing that he got the situation and knew that he should fight Sarutobi given that he was summoned.

No surprise at all about the jutsu itself.

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Answered it? He said the same thing I was, that in a sense they are sorcerers, who always grow more powerful with age, which you never replied to.
That's just priceless
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Originally Posted by raikage
How are these magicians different from the shinobi in Naruto? Probably the difference most relevant here is that all power must be generated from within the user, rather than pulled from an external source. Your effectiveness as a ninja in all aspects (nin, tai, gen) are directly correlated with your physical ability.

Yes, as you age your pure physical ability/potential will generally decrease. Hopefully we can at least agree on this. The question here, to me, seems to be 'can the loss in strength be offset by experience and training' which, of course, will vary from person to person. Personally I believe that the Sannin are not as strong as they were in their late 30's (due to their aging AND somewhat neglected skills in Tsunade and Jiraiya), but I can easily see why someone might claim that they are just as dangerous now as they ever were.
I find really funny your ability to read what you want to read and not what is written

I agree at 100% with what Raikage said about age btw.

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Oro is extreme as a ninjutsu specialist? lol, and yondaime wasn't?
Not for what we know, he was probably more diversified like Jiraiya.
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By incredible movement, I'm referring to Oro/Jiraiya when they were fighting on the giant snakes prior to the grand summonings
[anime pics]
Not only It's just anime filler but anyway there is no indication an a particulary incredible moves here.

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Your point isn't necessarily in contradiction to mine, as I never said it was certain either. Like I already said before, the entire point was to bounce ideas around. :P
You sure make look like your point is certain, if not I wouldn't even have started this discussion to begin with given that there is no real fact about it and that it's just about beliefs.

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lol? And just why doesn't Oro age? [Hint: Given time, he created a ninjutsu. Who would've thunk it?] As for Tsunade, you think the now basically 'indestructable' version would lose to the vulvernable one? Ohhhh kay.
So? We talk of the effect of age not of 'time without aging'.
And for Tsunade I already answered above why her new jutsu doesn't mean that she would win if she has overall weaker physical abilities after all these years out of shape.

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Just curious, such as...? That is, someone who was declared the best of all time in whatever their particular field when they just started it. Besides, I said as a general rule, I can name plenty of more examples then the first two I mentioned, but give me a couple of yours.
I like how you try to change what I said with your stupid sentence in bold.
I said : right when they reach the peak in their field.
And so Scott Richter known as the spame king for example, or Serguei Bubka known since his youth until he was really old for an athlete as the beast pole vaulter ever, Schumacher for the F1 race, lol MJ as the King of the Pop when he was young maybe, Gaary Kasparov the Russian Bear of the check, or even Elvis Presley as The King, etc.

But anyway the title of Naruto aren't really like these one, it's more like the Tiger of Canton for example, a title given to fighter who showed incredibly strong capacities.

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I would imagine 'knowing all jutsu' would be an aspect of being the 'god of the shinobi', not that being the 'god of the shinobi' was part of being the professor.
I don't think so, I think he was the strongest way before he gained the title of professor and learned all the jutsu of Konoha for example.
Actually I think that the title Professor also have to do with the fact that he raised the Sannin, and I think he was already the strongest at this point.
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Old 2004-08-27, 15:55   Link #300
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