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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-12-28, 09:09   Link #461
Divinegundam
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Originally Posted by Akashin View Post
Yeah, Minato probably isn't on the same level as Tobi or Edo Madara; I have no arguments there. I was just pointing out that we shouldn't put Minato on the same level as A by default, since they're a case of two shinobi who are very evenly matched in their respective skills.
Yes current tobi and edo madara are definitely overkill. It would be cool to see Minato warp the planetary destruction. minato is surely in the top 4 in my book.
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Old 2011-12-29, 11:56   Link #462
xKeir
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I'd be voting for Minato.

During his fight with Tobi during the Night of Naruto's birth , 'technically' speaking Minato won the fight with his skills. He managed to severely injure Tobi to the extent of forcing Tobi to retreat. At that time Minato was not even in his 30s. If you were to say Tobi is now of a different level because he has the Rinnegan now , i'm pretty sure given 17 years Minato would too be of a different level and be very much improved. Even Tobi himself applauded Minato's skills.

The only 2 guys who are better than him are Hashirama & Madara but heck. Those guys are on a complete different league of their own.

I'd have voted for Itachi if not for the fact that most High Lvl Sharingan Eye Techniques causes their users to go blind. If they don't 'take' Sharingans from other Uchiha's they won't be able to progress. To me that isn't even 'fair' or legit. Its just sacrificing others for the sake of power. So yeah. Personally Itachi is the strongest guy ever in my eyes but i'd vote for Minato. The only Uchiha who was badass enough and yet not need Eyes from other members of his Clan was Shisui but he died too quickly which was a sign that he wasn't really very strong other than his unique eye technique.

*Madara & Hashirama not included :3
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Old 2011-12-29, 14:57   Link #463
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Speaking Hashirama, I'm still wondering how he got so strong. Without the Bijuu, I don't see him as anything special. He can control trees, so what? I haven't seen anything of Mokuton that it especially jaw-dropping. We really need to see his fight with Madara in a Gaiden, because I just don't see how he won. Madara's Amaterasu should have burned through the trees with ease and Susanoo should have been able to protect against them just fine.
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Old 2011-12-29, 15:00   Link #464
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85% (of 7 gates) or 75%(of 8 gates) of his max to kill a 20% clone.... That sounds bad on gai's part..

I never said bee was a better taijutsu shinobi than gai, however bee is damn good at it couple that with 8 tails chakra; that's a hard fight for gai to say the least.
The gates don't work like that. You don't get proportionately more powerful with each gate.
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Old 2011-12-29, 16:17   Link #465
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Speaking Hashirama, I'm still wondering how he got so strong. Without the Bijuu, I don't see him as anything special. He can control trees, so what? I haven't seen anything of Mokuton that it especially jaw-dropping. We really need to see his fight with Madara in a Gaiden, because I just don't see how he won. Madara's Amaterasu should have burned through the trees with ease and Susanoo should have been able to protect against them just fine.
I'm sure kishi will get around to showcasing how great hashirama was, but so far yes. it makes no sense that madara wouldn't definitively beat him. its common for people to argue that orochimaru just couldn't control him to his full extent when he ET summoned him, but even just knowing his mokuton ability as you put it is just not all that impressive anymore. the only thing that makes him impressive is that we have been told that he was roughly even in strength with madara and actually beat him once and for all (but didnt kill him). but logically that doesnt stand up to the knowledge we have at the moment
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Old 2011-12-29, 19:06   Link #466
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I don't take the Orochimaru fight as indicative of anything when it comes to Hashi or Tobirama. I seriously doubt Kishi had Hashirama's character fleshed in his mind out as much as he does now. If he had, we would have seen a hell of a lot more from him and Tobirama. For example, he probably would have pulled the Kyubi out of Naruto (though that couldn't happen for plot purposes of course) and we would have seen some S/T from Tobirama.
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Old 2012-01-02, 23:08   Link #467
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I think the strongest would be Kabuto. If you consider how he controlled undead, tireless versions of Akatsuki, Seven Swordsmen, Kages, and other really strong ninjas including Edo-Madara, Kabuto nearly took on the entire Shinobi Alliance by himself. Sure, the alliance had to battle White Zetsu as well, but they weren't as much of a problem as the Edo summons.

Edo Tensei was severely broken. It even seemed that way back in part I when Orochimaru used it to summon the first two hokages. It's a little weird that Orochimaru never bothered to use it again after that point.

The next most powerful would be Tobi, since he controls 6/9 tailed beasts (not sure where Shukaku is at at the moment). I sort of wonder what would have happened if Tobi had faced off against Kabuto. Honestly, I think Edo-Nagato + Edo-Itachi would have won against Naruto+Bee if not for Shisui's power. And I think those two could probably match the power of the current Tobi. If you then factor in the Edo-kages, Edo-Sasori, Edo-Deidara, Edo-Chiyo, Edo-Kmimaro etc in addition to Kabuto's own powers, Kabuto>Tobi.

In my opinion, the five strongest ninja in the series has been (not including undead zombies):

1. Kabuto
2. Tobi
3. Nagato
4. Hashirama
5. Madara

I assume Sage of Six Paths would be the strongest by default. But we never actually see him.
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Old 2012-01-02, 23:34   Link #468
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
In my opinion, the five strongest ninja in the series has been (not including undead zombies):

1. Kabuto
2. Tobi
3. Nagato
4. Hashirama
5. Madara

I assume Sage of Six Paths would be the strongest by default. But we never actually see him.
hmm. but you are including undead zombies as part of kabuto's overall power. it's an interesting take on things I'll give you that. it really showcases how ET kind of ruins the whole argument lol because you are basically right in what kabuto is able to do with it and that he is fighting nearly the entire alliance himself.

to me though, it only amounts to playing chess or conducting an orchestra for illustrative purposes, not kabuto's overall power. the fact that each ET summons is so strong is indicative of that particular ninja's power, not kabuto's. I guess it's just the perspective we see things from though

edit: also, I'm surprised you would put madara below nagato. what is your reasoning for that? madara looks to be much more powerful, even in life before the hashirama dna upgrade kabuto gave him. he gave nagato his power as you stated in another thread and his meteor tech. was more impressive imo at least
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Old 2012-01-03, 12:44   Link #469
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just another point about madara being stronger than nagato: madara was able to control the kyuubi whereas nagato had a massive amount of trouble when dealing with him and never gained control. so far in the manga I haven't seen any characters more powerful than tobi or madara. I'm assuming naruto and sasuke may soon prove to be so, but not yet.
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Old 2012-01-03, 14:49   Link #470
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That doesn't say a whole lot about their power in comparison to be honest. What would the fact that Madara can control the Kyuubi help in a battle with Nagato (if we leave the Kyuubi out of that battle)? Yes, Madara can do things Nagato can't, but so can Nagato. He is perfectly able to cast jutsus of all elements, which Madara can probably not. I'm not saying Nagato is stronger than Madara (but they are close), however the point you made does not prove anything in regards to Madara's superiority.

And honestly, I don't get why people keep hyping Tobi. We have seen close to nothing of him in terms of fighting skill / technique / power. He may be a beast, but all we see is him fading out of and into reality again. We practically haven't even seen him fight. How can you all be so sure he's so powerful?
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Old 2012-01-03, 15:09   Link #471
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And honestly, I don't get why people keep hyping Tobi. We have seen close to nothing of him in terms of fighting skill / technique / power. He may be a beast, but all we see is him fading out of and into reality again. We practically haven't even seen him fight. How can you all be so sure he's so powerful?
right now he is fighting KM naruto, bee, kakashi and gai and having no problem
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Old 2012-01-03, 15:11   Link #472
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No, he's not fighting them, yet. We will see how strong he really is in the upcomming chapters, though.
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Old 2012-01-03, 16:32   Link #473
itachi-san314
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No, he's not fighting them, yet. We will see how strong he really is in the upcomming chapters, though.
that's like saying pain wasn't fighting naruto when he was using the 6 paths in the corpses...

also:

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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
That doesn't say a whole lot about their power in comparison to be honest. What would the fact that Madara can control the Kyuubi help in a battle with Nagato (if we leave the Kyuubi out of that battle)? Yes, Madara can do things Nagato can't, but so can Nagato. He is perfectly able to cast jutsus of all elements, which Madara can probably not. I'm not saying Nagato is stronger than Madara (but they are close), however the point you made does not prove anything in regards to Madara's superiority.
forgot to respond to this, but the bold parts make no sense.

well then by this logic, your point is void (if we leave elemental techniques out of the battle)

being able to control the kyuubi and not being able to control it (by means of force) is most definitely a gauge of power
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Old 2012-01-03, 18:49   Link #474
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The Kyuubi was just some random beast. If we would stage a fight between Madara and Nagato, it wouldn't be part of it, because it's not his power. Sure the fox obeyed Madara back in the day, but if that's all it takes for you to except the Kyuubi as part of Madara's power, than by that logic, Tsunade would maybe be just as strong as Nagato, because an entire village obeys her. Of course that logic is flawed though. The fact that Madara can control the Kyuubi changes nothing about how strong he is, just like the fact that Tsunade is the head of a village changes nothing about her 'power'.

Sure, with the aid of the Fox, Madara would anihilate anyone, even Nagato. Without it though, the battle would be much much closer, and that would be the default scenario, for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san315
that's like saying pain wasn't fighting naruto when he was using the 6 paths in the corpses...
Well, first of all, Pain wasn't using the six paths in the corpses. Pain is the corpses. And the six paths aren't 'in the corpses' but Nagato's abilites. He can use all of them even without the additional six bodies, as we've seen in the manga recently. His Rinnegan also enables him to share the vision of seven bodies. Nagato used his own abilities to create and become Pain.

But you're right, Tobi is already fighting. I forgot that he's become Pain himself now. However, the fight up until now cannot be used to judge Tobi's powe. So far, the only thing he has been relying on is the combined power of the bijuus, which are not his own. If we take those away, then what's left? Right, we don't know. Still people hype up Tobi himself into the sky.

And that question is very much legit. You can imagine a Tobi without the power of the bijuus, because that's not like taking away Nagato's elements. A scenario in which you rob a character of his powers would be pointless in a debate like this. However the bijuus are not Tobi's own powers.
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Old 2012-01-03, 21:51   Link #475
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Strongest in their prime so far have been Tobi, 4th Hokage, Madara, and maybe Itachi.

Though not a single one of those could beat every single other one 1v1. But I think those 4 could defeat any other character we've seen (maybe a few specific exceptions).

And the younger characters obviously aren't in their prime yet, so I won't include them.
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Old 2012-01-03, 22:31   Link #476
itachi-san314
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The Kyuubi was just some random beast. If we would stage a fight between Madara and Nagato, it wouldn't be part of it, because it's not his power. Sure the fox obeyed Madara back in the day, but if that's all it takes for you to except the Kyuubi as part of Madara's power, than by that logic, Tsunade would maybe be just as strong as Nagato, because an entire village obeys her.
madara controled the kyuubi by force of power. i never included it in his power. i included his ability to do it in his power.

Quote:
Of course that logic is flawed though. The fact that Madara can control the Kyuubi changes nothing about how strong he is, just like the fact that Tsunade is the head of a village changes nothing about her 'power'.
this is pure nonsense. you are comparing a powerful technique to an elected political leader. its a very flawed comparison

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Sure, with the aid of the Fox, Madara would anihilate anyone, even Nagato. Without it though, the battle would be much much closer, and that would be the default scenario, for obvious reasons.
its not obvious. dont forget that madara was the best uchiha of his time and had susano'o. nagato couldn't fight EMS and rinnegan techs at once.

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Well, first of all, Pain wasn't using the six paths in the corpses. Pain is the corpses.
no hes not. they are not him, just as the bijou are not tobi. on a simplistic level they are all weapons which are all fair game in ninja battles

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But you're right, Tobi is already fighting. I forgot that he's become Pain himself now. However, the fight up until now cannot be used to judge Tobi's powe. So far, the only thing he has been relying on is the combined power of the bijuus, which are not his own. If we take those away, then what's left? Right, we don't know. Still people hype up Tobi himself into the sky.
you're kind of dismissing how difficult it is to subjugate and control 6 bijous at once. I think tobi deserves much more credit.

Quote:
And that question is very much legit. You can imagine a Tobi without the power of the bijuus, because that's not like taking away Nagato's elements. A scenario in which you rob a character of his powers would be pointless in a debate like this. However the bijuus are not Tobi's own powers.
I agree except that Im not saying the bijous are tobi's power necessarily. I'm saying that the power to control them is, just like how I would include that as part of madara's power. it's not part of nagato's power since he failed at controlling the kyuubi
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Old 2012-01-03, 22:56   Link #477
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The comparison of Madara and Tsunade is not flawed at all. Both can use others to fight for them. It's that simple.

Anyway, if you count Madara's ability to control the bijuus as his own power, we are entering difficult realms again. It's a similar situation with Kabuto and his zombies. In my opinion, it doesn't contribute, but I can see how one could think otherwise. Madara would need bijuus to make use out of that ability. If there'd be none for him to conquer, that one power would be entirely pointless. The latest manga chapter hinted at that very scenario as a possible one. Well, we'll see how well he does when he finally steps in the limelight himself, soon.
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Old 2012-01-03, 23:34   Link #478
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My personal take on the Tobi situation is to separate him the same way we separate Nagato and the Six Paths of Pain (where the Six Paths of Pain are obviously still Nagato, but Nagato's strength on his own is an entirely separate thing). We know how strong Tobi w/ Six Paths is, but we don't know how strong Tobi was before the war (or with the Sharingan/Rinnegan combo, but without the Six Paths). We can assume on that all we like, but we don't much of anything concrete about Tobi's personal abilities.
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Old 2012-01-04, 01:15   Link #479
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The comparison of Madara and Tsunade is not flawed at all. Both can use others to fight for them. It's that simple.
no it is flawed. the people of konoha are not part of tsunade's power. if she were controlling them via some technique then that would be something to add to the argument. by your logic you can say gaara is the strongest since he's the general of the shinobi alliance. it just doesnt make sense.

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Anyway, if you count Madara's ability to control the bijuus as his own power, we are entering difficult realms again. It's a similar situation with Kabuto and his zombies. In my opinion, it doesn't contribute, but I can see how one could think otherwise. Madara would need bijuus to make use out of that ability. If there'd be none for him to conquer, that one power would be entirely pointless. The latest manga chapter hinted at that very scenario as a possible one. Well, we'll see how well he does when he finally steps in the limelight himself, soon.
I agree, but they do exist and he is controlling them. any type of power can be subtracted from the narutoverse so what's the point in doing that? we can only argue based on what the story provides. if there was no ninutsu or genjutsu then rock lee would be among the most powerful ninjas

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My personal take on the Tobi situation is to separate him the same way we separate Nagato and the Six Paths of Pain (where the Six Paths of Pain are obviously still Nagato, but Nagato's strength on his own is an entirely separate thing). We know how strong Tobi w/ Six Paths is, but we don't know how strong Tobi was before the war (or with the Sharingan/Rinnegan combo, but without the Six Paths). We can assume on that all we like, but we don't much of anything concrete about Tobi's personal abilities.
true. I'm willing to bet that tobi and madara both with further impress us with their individual bodies' powers soon enough, but that does remain to be seen.

and just a side note, (not directed at anyone in particular but I have seen it tossed aside in this discussion) I wouldn't discount tobi's escapability as not all that powerful of a technique. its the fastest evasion tech we've seen so far and is on par with minato, km naruto and A's speed
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Old 2012-01-04, 01:26   Link #480
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true. I'm willing to bet that tobi and madara both with further impress us with their individual bodies' powers soon enough, but that does remain to be seen.

and just a side note, (not directed at anyone in particular but I have seen it tossed aside in this discussion) I wouldn't discount tobi's escapability as not all that powerful of a technique. its the fastest evasion tech we've seen so far and is on par with minato, km naruto and A's speed
Oh, no doubt. I sincerely doubt that Tobi will be in any way underwhelming (though I'm not sure how much more Madara can impress us without entering the realm of being so powerful it's retarded, a la Aizen), just that we know next to nothing of his own abilities. With the Six Paths he's certainly an extremely powerful force, but all that really says of his personal abilities is that he is somebody with the physical power to control them (with some difficulty, as we've seen). It definitely gives us a frame to work with, but nothing concrete.

And yeah, his evasion ability is a lot more useful than some people seem to give it credit for. But it doesn't really make him stronger per se; the fastest mouse can outrun the cat, sure, but that mouse certainly won't be taking down any cats on that speed alone (though running and spamming Amaterasu probably would ).
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