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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-01-05, 14:50   Link #501
23 gundam fan
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Originally Posted by Chosen View Post
I also belive Jiraiya is stronger then Itachi because of his summon, but as mentioned in this thread already, we don't know much about Itachi yet. He might actually got/get a summon If yes, and the summon is great like Gamabunta, then I would say Itachi > Jiraiya. But anyway this is just my opinion. Ofc some people look at Itachi as their god(He is just to "cool"). But as for myself I really don't like people like him. Maybe that is another reason why I think Jiraiya beats Itachi ?
uh why in the world would itachi need a summons. . . hello susannoo
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Old 2012-01-05, 15:02   Link #502
itachi-san314
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uh why in the world would itachi need a summons. . . hello susannoo
you're responding to a post that was made in 2004 before susano'o was revealed. I'm just pointing out that its not really fair
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Old 2012-01-05, 18:28   Link #503
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It saddens me how people keep forgetting how much of a monster Sarutobi (3rd Hokage) was in his prime, just because he hasn't appeared in a long time.
The guy is like Yamamoto from Bleach or White Beard from One Piece, old monsters unrivaled in the series but weakened due to old age (well Yamaji is dead so age doesn't affect him but still you get the point)

I personally have no doubt that Sarutobi would be quite capable of beating any other candidates in his prime (with the exception of Rikudo Sennin but he's like...LEET HAX and shouldn't even be considered) and I do include guys like Madara, Tobi, Fourth, Itachi, Pain and so on.
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Old 2012-01-05, 19:28   Link #504
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It saddens me how people keep forgetting how much of a monster Sarutobi (3rd Hokage) was in his prime, just because he hasn't appeared in a long time.
The guy is like Yamamoto from Bleach or White Beard from One Piece, old monsters unrivaled in the series but weakened due to old age (well Yamaji is dead so age doesn't affect him but still you get the point)

I personally have no doubt that Sarutobi would be quite capable of beating any other candidates in his prime (with the exception of Rikudo Sennin but he's like...LEET HAX and shouldn't even be considered) and I do include guys like Madara, Tobi, Fourth, Itachi, Pain and so on.
just because he knew all the techs in konoha doesnt mean anything about bloodline limits. a weak version of him barely stood up to orochimaru who was a push over for the other characters you mentioned. what could sarutobi and enma in their primes do against pain attacking the village? probably just die in his wake. also its common knowledge that minato was the best ninja ever in konoha. i could be wrong but i think even sarutobi says it at some point
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Old 2012-01-05, 19:47   Link #505
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rinnegan is a more advanced sharingan so nagato actually does have it. also, just because someone has a sharingan doesnt mean they can control the kyuubi
O.o Rinnegan may be a branch technique of Sharingan but that does not mean it has the same inherent powers. We haven't seen Rinnegan allow the user to predict another's moves but just because someone lacks that one single technique doesn't necessarily make them inferior. So I don't see why the Rinnegan has to give the ability to control the Kybui - it doesn't.

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(well Yamaji is dead so age doesn't affect him but still you get the point)
Yamamoto isn't dead...
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Old 2012-01-05, 19:57   Link #506
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
just because he knew all the techs in konoha doesnt mean anything about bloodline limits. a weak version of him barely stood up to orochimaru who was a push over for the other characters you mentioned. what could sarutobi and enma in their primes do against pain attacking the village? probably just die in his wake. also its common knowledge that minato was the best ninja ever in konoha. i could be wrong but i think even sarutobi says it at some point
Have you even checked up on Sarutobi? He didn't just know every Konoha jutsu, he possibly knew more. Not only that he was considered the God of Shinobi, he was also said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha has ever had, including Minato and strongest of all the five kages of his time.
A weak version barely stood up to Orochimaru? Dude, Orochimaru was in perfect condition and summoned two other Hokage, each considered quite powerful and what about him? He was a 70 year old man who probably hadn't fought since Minato got the Hokage job, if not sooner. My grandpa is around that age, he takes long walks every day and yet feels tired just walking for a bit, imagine fighting 3 powerful guys.
He didn't beat Orochimaru but still managed to take away his arms...after using Shadow clone twice, meaning his energy was even cut by 2/3 after a while of fighting.
And don't underestimate Orochimaru...people have tended to underestimate Orochimaru because he was beaten by Sasuke...but don't forget he was bed-ridden by then and even then Sasuke didn't kill him, only Itachi's Susanoo managed to finally take him out. Orochimaru couldn't use his arms and was weakened yet he still held out against both Jiraya (though drugged) and Tsunade...
What about the 1st and the 2nd Hokage, also in the fight? One managed to beat Madara and the other was considered the best water user ever.
Also...Ninjas don't need bloodline limits to be powerful.

The guy was a beast at old age, imagine in his prime...

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Yamamoto isn't dead...
Shinigami are technically dead...
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Old 2012-01-05, 21:13   Link #507
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
A weak version barely stood up to Orochimaru? Dude, Orochimaru was in perfect condition and summoned two other Hokage, each considered quite powerful and what about him? He was a 70 year old man who probably hadn't fought since Minato got the Hokage job, if not sooner. My grandpa is around that age, he takes long walks every day and yet feels tired just walking for a bit, imagine fighting 3 powerful guys.
He didn't beat Orochimaru but still managed to take away his arms...after using Shadow clone twice, meaning his energy was even cut by 2/3 after a while of fighting.
And don't underestimate Orochimaru...people have tended to underestimate Orochimaru because he was beaten by Sasuke...but don't forget he was bed-ridden by then and even then Sasuke didn't kill him, only Itachi's Susanoo managed to finally take him out.
a perfectly healthy orochimaru was no match for itachi back when they both were in akatsuki. thats why he had to prey on a little kid (sasuke). was he a genius and strong? yes. was he stronger than itachi? not by a long shot. its not like orochimaru battled very long vs susano'o. he was such a push over that itachi just ignored him and sealed him almost instantly

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Orochimaru couldn't use his arms and was weakened yet he still held out against both Jiraya (though drugged) and Tsunade...
as you're elduing to, that battle means nothing. tsunade is not much of a fighter. all she could do vs pain was protect people. nothing offensive. and both jiraiya and orochimaru were injured in some way that canceled out. also you're ignoring kabuto's assistance


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What about the 1st and the 2nd Hokage, also in the fight? One managed to beat Madara and the other was considered the best water user ever.
Also...Ninjas don't need bloodline limits to be powerful.
they were being controlled by orochimaru who hadn't perfected ET. yamato does more with mokuton than hashirama did in that fight. by your logic you should place kabuto on top given his much much much more impressive ET which i actually agree with
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Old 2012-01-05, 21:35   Link #508
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
a perfectly healthy orochimaru was no match for itachi back when they both were in akatsuki. thats why he had to prey on a little kid (sasuke). was he a genius and strong? yes. was he stronger than itachi? not by a long shot. its not like orochimaru battled very long vs susano'o. he was such a push over that itachi just ignored him and sealed him almost instantly
I seem to have forgotten the scene where Orochimaru and Itachi fought the first time, care to show it to me please? Because I don't remember it ever being said that he was no match for him.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
as you're elduing to, that battle means nothing. tsunade is not much of a fighter. all she could do vs pain was protect people. nothing offensive. and both jiraiya and orochimaru were injured in some way that canceled out. also you're ignoring kabuto's assistance
If you're counting Kabuto then we should count Naruto and Shizune as well.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
they were being controlled by orochimaru who hadn't perfected ET. yamato does more with mokuton than hashirama did in that fight. by your logic you should place kabuto on top given his much much much more impressive ET which i actually agree with
They were being control...well in a way yes, but Orochimaru wasn't controlling them like puppets, he only removed their free will, they were still fighting like they normally would.
That Yamamoto bit...I laughed...first off, I highly doubt Hashirama was such a one trick pony that he would only use Mokuton. If that was it then eventually he would be countered...hell Madara should have taken care of it with Amaterasu easily...yet Madara still lost.
You also have to remember that we've see so much more of Yamato than of Hashirama (which we've seen fight for only a few minutes) so of course we see Yamato do a lot more stuff...we've seen Hashirama in one fight, but we've seen Yamato in several. Not only that but there was the Second and Orochimaru as well...doubt Kishi had time for shining spotlights on everyone while all that other crap was going on as well...

Finally, well I suppose if we count ET usage, then Kabuto is above most, if not all, however his own fighting ability can't even compare to most of the strongest fighters mentioned here.

Again...the Third was a 70 year old man, fighting three monsters and still managed to take out 2 and cripple one. That is undeniable and shows he is head and shoulders above most fighters. In his prime, he would have been much, much stronger.
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Old 2012-01-05, 21:48   Link #509
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
I seem to have forgotten the scene where Orochimaru and Itachi fought the first time, care to show it to me please? Because I don't remember it ever being said that he was no match for him.
not sure exactly. it happened when they were alone and walking up some stairs in the akatsuki robes. orochi tried to put a move on itachi and itachi reversed it with no problem leaving orochimaru beaten in about 2 seconds.


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If you're counting Kabuto then we should count Naruto and Shizune as well.
it really doesnt matter since tsunade and jiraiya were not better than the ninjas you mentioned anyway. and that battle clearly doesnt showcase who is stronger


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They were being control...well in a way yes, but Orochimaru wasn't controlling them like puppets, he only removed their free will, they were still fighting like they normally would.
if thats true then hashirama wouldnt have beaten madara

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That Yamamoto bit...I laughed...first off, I highly doubt Hashirama was such a one trick pony that he would only use Mokuton. If that was it then eventually he would be countered...hell Madara should have taken care of it with Amaterasu easily...yet Madara still lost.
did you lol because you're making no sense?

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You also have to remember that we've see so much more of Yamato than of Hashirama (which we've seen fight for only a few minutes) so of course we see Yamato do a lot more stuff...we've seen Hashirama in one fight, but we've seen Yamato in several. Not only that but there was the Second and Orochimaru as well...doubt Kishi had time for shining spotlights on everyone while all that other crap was going on as well...
not sure what your point is. if orochimaru was stronger he would have utilized hashirama to his fullest extent

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Finally, well I suppose if we count ET usage, then Kabuto is above most, if not all, however his own fighting ability can't even compare to most of the strongest fighters mentioned here.
agreed, but you brought ET up as part of orochi's power. also, it makes sense that kabuto is better than orochi at everything since he basically is an improved version of him now

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Again...the Third was a 70 year old man, fighting three monsters and still managed to take out 2 and cripple one. That is undeniable and shows he is head and shoulders above most fighters. In his prime, he would have been much, much stronger.
I totally agree. but it doesnt make him stronger than the people you first mentioned. again, I ask: what would he do vs pain?
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Old 2012-01-05, 22:25   Link #510
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Shinigami are technically dead...
Oh, okay I never really looked at it like that. But technically everyone in Bleach is dead because when people in SS die they go back to Earth.
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Old 2012-01-05, 22:47   Link #511
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not sure exactly. it happened when they were alone and walking up some stairs in the akatsuki robes. orochi tried to put a move on itachi and itachi reversed it with no problem leaving orochimaru beaten in about 2 seconds.
I could be mistaken, but I think Itachi won that exchange with Tsukuyomi, which is the same OHK jutsu that can take out the vast majority of the shinobi we've seen throughout the entire series regardless of their strength. I'm not arguing that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru (he clearly is), but that kind of win shouldn't really be used as a benchmark for Orochimaru's strength, I don't think.

Edit: I checked, and disregard that; I was indeed mistaken. Nevertheless, that Orochimaru lost solely because of the Sharingan (it wasn't a full on fight) leads me to stand by my claim that their encounter shouldn't be used as a benchmark against opponents that don't have it.

Last edited by Akashin; 2012-01-05 at 22:54. Reason: Edit
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:04   Link #512
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I could be mistaken, but I think Itachi won that exchange with Tsukuyomi, which is the same OHK jutsu that can take out the vast majority of the shinobi we've seen throughout the entire series regardless of their strength. I'm not arguing that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru (he clearly is), but that kind of win shouldn't really be used as a benchmark for Orochimaru's strength, I don't think.

Edit: I checked, and disregard that; I was indeed mistaken. Nevertheless, that Orochimaru lost solely because of the Sharingan (it wasn't a full on fight) leads me to stand by my claim that their encounter shouldn't be used as a benchmark against opponents that don't have it.
tsukuyomi is a genjutsu technique. and in your edit, sharingan is a bloodline limit trait. im not sure why people in this thread keep wanting to take abilities away from people to prove whatever point they're trying to make. a character's power should be judged on what they can do and how all those abilities stand up to other ninja. arbitrarily taking powers away from people defeats the whole discussion imho
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:11   Link #513
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
tsukuyomi is a genjutsu technique. and in your edit, sharingan is a bloodline limit trait. im not sure why people in this thread keep wanting to take abilities away from people to prove whatever point they're trying to make. a character's power should be judged on what they can do and how all those abilities stand up to other ninja. arbitrarily taking powers away from people defeats the whole discussion imho
I didn't take power away from Itachi, as I wasn't trying to argue which between him and Orochimaru was stronger (though that would have been the case if that were what I was arguing). What I was saying was that their fight wasn't a battle as such, but Itachi utterly defeating Orochimaru solely through the Sharingan. And because of that, I argued that Orochimaru losing that fight easily shouldn't be used as a benchmark of how strong he is (kind of like how Naruto could defeat Preta Path using Sage Chakra, but somebody as strong or even stronger than Naruto might not do as well simply because they lack that one game-winning advantage). That Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru is obvious, but the nature of their battle was such that the result would have been the same had it been anybody else ill-suited to fighting the Sharingan, regardless of strength.
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:25   Link #514
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I didn't take power away from Itachi, as I wasn't trying to argue which between him and Orochimaru was stronger (though that would have been the case if that were what I was arguing). What I was saying was that their fight wasn't a battle as such, but Itachi utterly defeating Orochimaru solely through the Sharingan. And because of that, I argued that Orochimaru losing that fight easily shouldn't be used as a benchmark of how strong he is (kind of like how Naruto could defeat Preta Path using Sage Chakra, but somebody as strong or even stronger than Naruto might not do as well simply because they lack that one game-winning advantage). That Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru is obvious, but the nature of their battle was such that the result would have been the same had it been anybody else ill-suited to fighting the Sharingan, regardless of strength.
I still dont see your point. you're saying that orochimaru was weak against genjutsu right? I agree. and that's a big flaw of his. it puts him under anyone with powerful genjutsu techniques in terms of overall power. its not like genjutsu is a hack or something. it drains the user's chakra and stamina just like any other techs
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Old 2012-01-05, 23:45   Link #515
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I still dont see your point. you're saying that orochimaru was weak against genjutsu right? I agree. and that's a big flaw of his. it puts him under anyone with powerful genjutsu techniques in terms of overall power. its not like genjutsu is a hack or something. it drains the user's chakra and stamina just like any other techs
Your initial statement was:

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
a perfectly healthy orochimaru was no match for itachi back when they both were in akatsuki. thats why he had to prey on a little kid (sasuke). was he a genius and strong? yes. was he stronger than itachi? not by a long shot. its not like orochimaru battled very long vs susano'o. he was such a push over that itachi just ignored him and sealed him almost instantly
Said in response to a comment about not underestimating Orochimaru's strength, I took this to mean you were intending for Orochimaru's performance against Itachi in those two instances to be evident of his strength. In one instance Itachi merely brushed Orochimaru aside with Genjutsu (as he could have countless others just as easily, regardless of their power), while in the other Orochimaru was... well, barely Orochimaru at all. In neither instance was there a clash that could have shown Orochimaru's strength, which is why I am saying neither should really be used as a benchmark for how strong he is. That Orochimaru was bested in two instances that could barely be called fights for him shows his strength only as much as besting a bedridden Orochimaru shows Sasuke's.

Again, I'm not trying to say Itachi isn't stronger than Orochimaru or anything silly like that. I'm saying that Orochimaru is clearly stronger than the instances you're citing would indicate.
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Old 2012-01-06, 00:14   Link #516
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the instances I'm citing state that itachi is stronger, which you agree with...

orochimaru is a strong ninjutsu user, but weak against powerful genjutsu. anyone with powerful genjutsu is stronger than him. Madara/itachi/current sasuke and that's just genjutsu. people as powerful as hashirama, nagato, minato and A are better at ninjutsu and/or are much faster/stronger and should be placed above him as well.
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Old 2012-01-06, 00:32   Link #517
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the instances I'm citing state that itachi is stronger, which you agree with...

orochimaru is a strong ninjutsu user, but weak against powerful genjutsu. anyone with powerful genjutsu is stronger than him. Madara/itachi/current sasuke and that's just genjutsu. people as powerful as hashirama, nagato, minato and A are better at ninjutsu and/or are much faster/stronger and should be placed above him as well.
That's hard to say, since saying that Orochimaru is weak against Genjutsu because Itachi defeated him is kind of like saying somebody is weak against fast opponents because they lost to Minato. Itachi is the best of the best when it comes to Genjutsu, and we never saw Orochimaru face anybody that would be called strong Genjutsu users without being of Itachi's caliber.

That said, yeah, Orochimaru is probably below everybody you named there. I was never arguing otherwise.
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Old 2012-01-06, 08:12   Link #518
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it really doesnt matter since tsunade and jiraiya were not better than the ninjas you mentioned anyway. and that battle clearly doesnt showcase who is stronger
And I'm not saying that Orochimaru was stronger than Madara, Pain and so on...

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if thats true then hashirama wouldnt have beaten madara
What? That makes no sense. Like I said, the fight was short, you can't say a guy can be another just from seeing him in one fight against one completely different opponent. It was stated in the manga that he beat Madara anyway so what's you point?

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did you lol because you're making no sense?
Let me see if I can explain it in a way you'll understand.
I highly doubt that all Hashirama knew how to do in a battle was use Mokuton jutsu. Surely a ninja of his caliber would be strong at using other types of jutsu. If that wasn't the case, eventually other ninjas would find ways to counter his Mokuton...like for example Madara. If Hashirama only use Mokuton then all Madara needed to do was use Amaterasu to burn the wood and Hashirama wouldn't have been able to beat him. Yet Hashirama did beat him, thus he obviously could use more than wood jutsu.

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not sure what your point is. if orochimaru was stronger he would have utilized hashirama to his fullest extent
That doesn't even make sense, I didn't even mention Orochimaru's use of Hashirama there. ET brings back people and the seal he implanted in their brain just takes away their free will, like I said, this means they fight normally regardless of who summoned them. Orochimaru being stronger or weaker should have no effect on how strong the First and the Second were when summoned.
And what I meant in that quote you did was that we only saw Hashirama fight once, however we've seen Yamato fight multiple times, so of course we've seen Yamato use more wood jutsu than Hashirama. Not only that but during that fight there were multiple fights going on as well, some including main characters, meaning screen time was limited.

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agreed, but you brought ET up as part of orochi's power. also, it makes sense that kabuto is better than orochi at everything since he basically is an improved version of him now
I never brought ET up as Orochimaru's power, what I did was say that Sarutobi fought 3 powerful ninjas, not Orochimaru and his summons, which is what we should view as since ET is not a normal summoning jutsu and should not count toward individual skill in battle.
Again, ET should not be considered in a "Who is the strongest" discussion because not only does it require one hell of a preparation, it does not show one's individual fighting ability.
If you consider ET then you'd have to say the whole war was fought between Zetsu clones and Kabuto and not include the ET guys...


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I totally agree. but it doesnt make him stronger than the people you first mentioned. again, I ask: what would he do vs pain?
What do you want me to say? Make a detailed post dictating how the fight should go? xD
Truthfully, the only real problem I see Sarutobi having would be against God realm Pain and hell...if Naruto was able to eventually take advantage of his weakness I highly doubt someone like Sarutobi wouldn't have not only figured it out quicker, but also make a plan to counter it.

I can see that you are dead set on not agreeing with my opinion so let's agree to disagree shall we? It's my opinion and like yours, it won't change and further discussion is pointless.
Not to mention that there's still the whole Rock-Paper-Scissor concept people seem to forget...
Really...I only said that it saddened me that people seemed to forget about Sarutobi and his accomplishments just because newer, shinier and flashier characters have shown up in Shippuden.
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Old 2012-01-06, 13:54   Link #519
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i think a battle between itachi and jiraiya could go either way. they are both masters in ninjutsu and they are both very good in taijutsu. obviously itachi has a major plus in genjutsu, but jiraiya has good genjutsu defense in most cases, and and he has a major advanage in stamia/charka. it really doesnt have to be a one or the other debate. either one of them in battle could defeat the other, depending on the situation and how much of there jutsu the other knows about.
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Old 2012-01-06, 15:36   Link #520
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Speaking of Hashirama, I think I realized a new facet of his strength. Not only does he have Mokuton, he has the elements that make it up. So, like Yamato, we can assume he used (and most liekly mastered) Doton and Suiton. Also, seeing as who his brother was, we can surmise he was quite formidable with Suiton at the very least. I think I also recall the 3rd saying that Hashirama knew all the jutsu in that kinjutsu scroll Naruto stole way back when - that'd surely boost his abilities. Additionally, he seemed to be a powerful genjutsu user since he used Bringer of Darkness on Hiruzen.

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I totally agree. but it doesnt make him stronger than the people you first mentioned. again, I ask: what would he do vs pain?
That's not really a fair question. Ninjutsu has evolved into an entirely different animal since the part of the manga when Sarutobi was around. It'd be more accurate to call the "jutsu" we're seeing now superpowers. I have no doubt had Hiruzen survived into this part of the manga he too would have a plethora of these superpowers as well.
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