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Old 2014-01-24, 11:06   Link #4781
germanturkey
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there's nothing wrong with wingers (see bayern munich) but people who play there have to be comfortable bringing the ball into the middle AND your fullbacks have to be able to make overlapping runs to swing in crosses. for best results, look at Real, Barca, and Arsenal.
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Old 2014-01-24, 11:41   Link #4782
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Eliminating wingplay, that's exactly what I can expect of a future. The best clubs out there don't need to use old-fashioned wingers anymore. If any, the likes of Young, Valencia and Nani should be more worried should the manager see the same thing here.
I actually think wingers are still incredibly important. Think about it in terms of space utilization; you're missing out on a large part of the field if you don't have *real* wingers. Unfortunately in todays day and age, you can't just play on the wings; if you're a winger you MUST be scoring goals, and unfortunately neither valencia nor nani provide that. I said earlier that a 4-2-3-1 for manu, because all of a sudden, playing that formation, you suddenly have a really strong team. Now that the deal is done, I'm interested to see if thats the direction they go, and if theyll be able to adapt.
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Old 2014-01-26, 21:34   Link #4783
germanturkey
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man, next round of the FA cup should be crazy. Citeh vs Chelski, Arsenal vs 'Pool
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Old 2014-01-26, 23:51   Link #4784
LoveYouSaber
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Originally Posted by germanturkey View Post
man, next round of the FA cup should be crazy. Citeh vs Chelski, Arsenal vs 'Pool
And this in the middle of a frantic Feb-March schedule. For Arsenal, this is gonna be a long-ride...
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Old 2014-01-27, 11:42   Link #4785
Shinndou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
if you're a winger you MUST be scoring goals
I disagree.

A winger's first job is first and foremost to make the opponent's defense spread wide, in order to create space for both the forwards and other midfielders to sneak in.

Second job is to provide assists. Goals are absolutely not a must. Look at Lichsteiner, he's one hell of a winger, his best contribute comes from being able to do these sort of things rather than being devoted to scoring.
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Old 2014-01-27, 15:09   Link #4786
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinndou View Post
I disagree.

A winger's first job is first and foremost to make the opponent's defense spread wide, in order to create space for both the forwards and other midfielders to sneak in.

Second job is to provide assists. Goals are absolutely not a must. Look at Lichsteiner, he's one hell of a winger, his best contribute comes from being able to do these sort of things rather than being devoted to scoring.
Sorry, I shouldve said score and assist. as far as spreading the defense wide, although it is of course important, I think thats more of back in the 'ol day wingers. You can't get by on that playing out wide with that anymore.
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Old 2014-01-27, 15:39   Link #4787
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The only out of date type of winger is the touchline hugger who only races up field to put crosses in the box. The rest all have at least situational uses.
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Old 2014-01-27, 22:00   Link #4788
justavisitor
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probably a bit late to the party, but after reading some of the earlier posts, and watching some old brazil soccer clips, I almost wish Man U can play something like 4-2-2-2....imagine rvp and rooney get supported by both mata and kagawa...but too bad the only manager that could actually give it a try is on the other side of manchester

But seriously, like many others have said it in here, Moyes have to try new tactics, otherwise it's just a waste of money (and quite a waste)
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Old 2014-01-28, 02:03   Link #4789
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
The only out of date type of winger is the touchline hugger who only races up field to put crosses in the box. The rest all have at least situational uses.
Anyways, basically what I was trying to say before I made an ass of myself is that now that manu have mata they have to adapt because their wingers just arn't cutting it at the moment
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Old 2014-01-28, 02:24   Link #4790
Shinndou
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Mata is a support striker, if you're going to use him on the wings it has to be in a 4-3-3 setup as one of the forwards on either left or right side. I guess he could be used in a 4-2-3-1 setup as well but that'd be really risky, since the three players behind the lone striker are supposed to provide cover as well when defending, and Mata's more of a striker than a trequartista like Kagawa.
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Old 2014-01-28, 06:37   Link #4791
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinndou View Post
Mata is a support striker, if you're going to use him on the wings it has to be in a 4-3-3 setup as one of the forwards on either left or right side. I guess he could be used in a 4-2-3-1 setup as well but that'd be really risky, since the three players behind the lone striker are supposed to provide cover as well when defending, and Mata's more of a striker than a trequartista like Kagawa.
Well first.. I don't really think the formation is as rigid as a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3. Maybe, 4-5-1 in defence, and 4-3-3 in attack etc. In any case, if you play 4-3-3, when you play against a 5 man midfield, you will either get swamped in midfield, or essentially revert back to a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-5-1 when off the ball.
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Old 2014-01-28, 10:01   Link #4792
Shinndou
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To be able to do what you describe you need the two players on the wings not to be support-strikers but real wingers/midfielders who are simply offense-minded. That's not Mata's profile at all.

Last edited by Shinndou; 2014-01-28 at 11:27.
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Old 2014-01-28, 11:18   Link #4793
risingstar3110
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It will be interesting to see how Moyes gonna use Mata. As the way i see it, they will need a drastic change in their football philosophy to fit Mata in.

Unless he is not a first team players, but rather an impact sub/luxury players to ultilise against certain opponent defense
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Old 2014-01-28, 12:17   Link #4794
Bri
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The easiest model to copy for Moyes would be the defensive unit of Atlético based on a narrow 4-4-2 but players like Mata or Kagawa don't fit in there. He might simply revert to a Everton like 4-2-3-1.

A real 4-3-3 with single defensive midfielder and 2 center halves could accommodate all the creative players but realistically only Rogers fields teams like that in the EPL. United's defense probably can't handle a high line nor the passing game.
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Old 2014-01-28, 12:21   Link #4795
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
It will be interesting to see how Moyes gonna use Mata. As the way i see it, they will need a drastic change in their football philosophy to fit Mata in.

Unless he is not a first team players, but rather an impact sub/luxury players to ultilise against certain opponent defense
For the price we paid, it would be ridiculous to even think we'd not undergo that full transformation of philosophy to reach what Chelsea and Arsenal have already done to themselves in terms of playing a more continental approach.

When one thinks that the other targets we missed/are still looking about are Spanish or German, I think we have a clearer indication of what the club is looking for a transformation. It's just that I wish Moyes didn't give current players 6 entire months of hurt to show their limitations before the club decides to react the way they should have done before.
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Old 2014-01-28, 13:07   Link #4796
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinndou View Post
To be able to do what you describe you need the two players on the wings not to be support-strikers but real wingers/midfielders who are simply offense-minded. That's not Mata's profile at all.
with a 4-2-3-1 you can play through the centre. you can play that without anyone who specializes in operating on the flanks.
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Old 2014-01-30, 00:27   Link #4797
Bakaizer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
with a 4-2-3-1 you can play through the centre. you can play that without anyone who specializes in operating on the flanks.
you also need a strong holding midfield for that

united need a new holding midfield, carrick and fletcher are getting old, Fellaini is not doing good, how about Axel Witsel, Vidal, or maybe Toni Kroos
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Old 2014-01-30, 07:19   Link #4798
Shinndou
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Originally Posted by Bakaizer View Post
you also need a strong holding midfield for that

united need a new holding midfield, carrick and fletcher are getting old, Fellaini is not doing good, how about Axel Witsel, Vidal, or maybe Toni Kroos
Sorry but he's not leaving us! He just renewed his contract and he's stated he wants to stay with us. He's enjoying his life at the club and in Turin.

The only chance to see Vidal in a different team would only come through a majestic offer, and even then I still doubt we'd sell him. Conte is going to renew is contract as well so it's highly unlikely that he'll let his best midfielder go, he's part of his project.

The only midfielder that might be leaving this summer is Pogba, but it's more because of his agent Mino Raiola who's quite the puppeteer when it comes to pulling the strings and transfering players around Europe.
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Old 2014-02-01, 13:33   Link #4799
KiraYamatoFan
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After today's result, here's what a fellow United fan wrote about David Moyes

Quote:
Things today that proved Moyes is an idiot

I'm afraid it's now become undeniable. Here's why:
1) United now have Rooney, Kagawa and Mata who are all too talented to sit on the bench, and who only really play effectively off the striker as a no10. So, with all three fit and available, which one of them spent the most time playing there today? That's right.......Danny Welbeck.

2) United had Mata, Rooney and Van Persie on the pitch today, the three best (and only capable) corner takers at the club. Which one of them took nearly all of our corners? .......Ashley Young.

3) Due to the height of Stoke in the centre of the pitch, Chris Smalling was selected to play on the right wing, whereupon he won zero headers until an injury forced him to move into the centre.

4) Apparently this height concern thing with Stoke also only applies to the right fullback position. Patrice Evra being targeted by Stoke due to his size even after Rafael came on, is of no concern at all.

5) Inexplicably, signing Mata for a shitload of money, hasn't solved United's problem of having too many attacking players and no midfield.

6) When you win a game in a run of losing games, obviously the correct thing to do on both occasions is change at least 6 of your outfield positions for the next game.

7) Ashley Young, who even when he plays well, looks shit, is the only attacking player other than Valencia who Moyes seems to trust enough to actually play consistently in a single position. When you think about that...is Moyes actually genuinely brain damaged?

8) Wilfried Zaha, given the grand total of 1 sub appearance to prove himself, sent on loan. More assists in 52 minutes for a relegation threatened team than Young and Valencia have managed between them ALL season.

9) Bizarre ignorance or lack of awareness that it was very windy from the likes of Rooney not addressed in any way.

10) 1st February 2014...David Moyes still doesn't know enough about his players to have a clue what his first team is, apart from David De Gea and Patrice Evra. Either that or, after 10+ years in topflight management, still hasn't figured out that having a first team is slightly important.0

11) Zaha not allowed to go on loan because Nani's not fit...a week later, Zaha sent on loan despite Nani not being fit. Fabio sold despite squad being left with only 3 fullbacks, one of whom is actually a slightly terrible winger. Leaving only 2 actual fullbacks...one of whom gets injured a lot. Somehow we've gone from being desperate enough for a fullback to try and loan onein a panic, to allowing one to just leave, despite there being absolutely no other changes to our defensive personel in the time between these two things happening.
Someone should give David Moyes the dagger to commit seppuku already () unless he really wants to live on with this living hell. This guy is a total shame of being called a Manchester United manager, even several times worse than Klinsmann at Bayern Munich or Hodgson at Liverpool.

I really have my blood boiling today.
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Last edited by KiraYamatoFan; 2014-02-01 at 14:04.
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Old 2014-02-01, 14:24   Link #4800
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You are not the only one raging.
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